Does the Metro make money?

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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Most of the people that drive here, have never and will never use the Metro.
They will still drive their jeepetas 100 meters instead of walking.
They consider the Metro to be for the poor and wouldn't be seen dead using it.



He he he! That will change when all lines and feeder systems are in place Robert! The city of SD will adopt congestion fee policies, which will make people think twice about driving their SUVs 100 meters instead of using public transportation that's safe, clean and reliable!

Just like I told here waaaaaaay before on DR1 about the change of the major links into toll roads, so too will this phase come into force eventually. First we need the transportation system to be to par and efficient, before we take the steps to have people park their cars and take a ride.
Big shots will forever opt for their SUVs and lux, but they will also pay for those a premium unlike the rest of mortals in the city, or poor as you call them.
 

Hillbilly

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Jan 1, 2002
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While it might be true that Japan's train/underground system is a money maker, and I said Might; please consider the difference in scale? There are more people in Tokyo than there are in the Dominican Republic!! And they all seem to be working. And nobody I know at the World Bank has had any numbers in his hands as to subsidies for these great trains.

Now, in the case of the DR, you have some serious issues: You have the publico drivers and their families (Most are recipients of Bono this and Bono that), out of work if they ever put efficient feeder lines in.

Then you have the Conatra people who control nearly 100% of inter-city transportation, both passenger and freight. Will they be happy to lose the Santiago-Santo Domingo service? Will they be content to bring things to Santiago or La Vega and put them on the trains? And then in Santo Domingo, will they settle for shuttling the goods to the markets, and the passengers to their destinations?

Seriously, I can't see a lot of upside to this proposal. There will be dozens of killings over routes among the different syndicates who no longer have a lot of members...
And the cost? Remember there are buses and then there are buses. The people that ride the guaguas between cities are not going to be able to pay Metro rates....

Some time ago I talked to Popy Berm?dez about this, since he had a feasibility study done years ago....He was less than enthusiastic about this. It just seems very pie in the sky...Yeah, it'd be nice, but really???

HB, just musing...
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
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The light railway to Santiago sounds like a good idea in theory, but only if the government is prepared to confront the transport unions. It has already shown in Santo Domingo that it hasn't got the balls. The Metro would almost be justifiable if it had been accompanied by the elimination of carros p?blicos and guaguas.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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Or put another way...

If you want to get paid, then you better sign up for L2?
I'm not going to get into this on the board, but "major" contractors are still owed money from L1.

The standard line appears to be... When we get feeders, when we get solar power, when we get this, when we can sell ad space, when we get that etc.

The feeders have been an on-going issue. PICHARDO, please post the "real" reason why this hasn't happened yet, instead of saying when...

No Robert! Not a single "contractor" is owed money for the L1 of the SD Metro! Like I said, "they" owe those subcontractors for their hiring under their own companies, not the state!

Robert for the feeders to be in the streets, the infrastructure they will use must be there first! The stations where feeder landings will be paired to, are not done yet, much due to the opposition of the PRD and people like Osiris, which made the SD Metro L1 a public enemy of state funds.

The work on those bus terminals at the stations is being done on par with the same funding the L2 is getting to go along: From the revenues of the L1 operations, which itself is being covered by the subsidy of the gov in kind. The money from the subsidy can't be used for anything other than the operation expenses and the revenues from the actual operations can't be tied by political will at any level in the realm of the opposition.
That's why it's taking so long to deploy it!

The wind farms are going up, the solar plant is going up, the natural gas plant is on the funding licitation phase, the hydro power is on the construction stages for one of those and 2 more in advanced project stages as well.

This is not a simple thing, if you don't agree to that I guess you'll have to debate it with the people from Discovery Channel taping and documenting the build of the SD Metro in the country... Well... Not like "talk" to them, but form your opinion after watching the episode in their international channel...

Robert this is a system built from scratch, in a country where the was nothing to being with in relation to such implementation. The work is huge and tolling by any means! Everything that's needed for a system like this, had to be "made" and "created" just for it in the DR!

Some 20 something months into the operations and you all want this to be a "turn-key" overall system, implemented overnight?

All you need to do (all of you) is to look some miles away to the East of our coast and see how a multibillion dollar investment in a US funded territory, is hardly breaking from the total loss bottom into intensive care level for the San Juan Metro (Urban Train)... Then compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
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Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
While it might be true that Japan's train/underground system is a money maker, and I said Might; please consider the difference in scale? There are more people in Tokyo than there are in the Dominican Republic!! And they all seem to be working. And nobody I know at the World Bank has had any numbers in his hands as to subsidies for these great trains.

Now, in the case of the DR, you have some serious issues: You have the publico drivers and their families (Most are recipients of Bono this and Bono that), out of work if they ever put efficient feeder lines in.

Then you have the Conatra people who control nearly 100% of inter-city transportation, both passenger and freight. Will they be happy to lose the Santiago-Santo Domingo service? Will they be content to bring things to Santiago or La Vega and put them on the trains? And then in Santo Domingo, will they settle for shuttling the goods to the markets, and the passengers to their destinations?

Seriously, I can't see a lot of upside to this proposal. There will be dozens of killings over routes among the different syndicates who no longer have a lot of members...
And the cost? Remember there are buses and then there are buses. The people that ride the guaguas between cities are not going to be able to pay Metro rates....

Some time ago I talked to Popy Berm?dez about this, since he had a feasibility study done years ago....He was less than enthusiastic about this. It just seems very pie in the sky...Yeah, it'd be nice, but really???

HB, just musing...

If we were to had always engage in that type of thinking in earnest before we adopted suitable transportation solutions in time, we would still pacing the street riding burros and for the more affluent "horse carriages"...

Each segment will adapt to their reality and surroundings in time, that's development's ugly other face for the rest of you.
Supply adjusts to the demand flow all the time, when it doesn't you either have an over or deficient supply to demand. Markets tend to correct themselves fairly quick and with a take no prisoners attitude on the way to that goal.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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The light railway to Santiago sounds like a good idea in theory, but only if the government is prepared to confront the transport unions. It has already shown in Santo Domingo that it hasn't got the balls. The Metro would almost be justifiable if it had been accompanied by the elimination of carros p?blicos and guaguas.

The gov won't need to confront the transport unions, but let them participate as with the feeder buses in alternatives that they can profit from as well and adapt to.

Carros publicos will diminish eventually on their own weight as the Metro Lines expand and the feeder solutions make them obsolete in their role as enablers for the multi-part trips.

There is not "light railway" to Santiago, but high speed train service slated to that segement with commercial usage during the off hours (read closing time to restart of operations) of the passenger services.

This is what will be common (type not same model) during the passenger day time service on the tracks from Santiago to SD:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/S103.jpg




And this will be taking the rails during the time that passenger service off time:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pg/350px-DTTX_724681_20050529_IL_Rochelle.jpg





And this is the other factor that will also make the SD Metro more profitable during its own off time, with services to be rendered via the L3 and L4 lines to and from ports, airports, industrial parks:


http://www.protovisionmodels.com/images/well_300x94_single.jpg
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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You've been saying this since 2005 and yet you wonder why people lose patience with your so-called "explanations".


The L1 entered commercial service in Jan 30 2009 for the first time and somehow you expect all bells and whistles to be in place in 20 something months after that! Que barbaro!
 

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
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The L1 entered commercial service in Jan 30 2009 for the first time and somehow you expect all bells and whistles to be in place in 20 something months after that! Que barbaro!

Great math manipulation!

It?s closer to 30 months, not 20!
27 months to be more precise.

If the results had been profitable, I?m betting you would have said: "... in just under 2 1/2 years!"
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
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Great math manipulation!

It?s closer to 30 months, not 20!
27 months to be more precise.

If the results had been profitable, I?m betting you would have said: "... in just under 2 1/2 years!"

The L1 entered commercial service in Jan 30 2009 for the first time and somehow you expect all bells and whistles to be in place in 20 something months after that! Que barbaro!

...:tired:

I guess you're right! 26 months and 21 days is closer to a full year in 12 months, right?
Wow! Great discovery there!
A+ on math for you!
 
Jan 9, 2004
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So tell us how.....

The gov won't need to confront the transport unions, but let them participate as with the feeder buses in alternatives that they can profit from as well and adapt to.

Carros publicos will diminish eventually on their own weight as the Metro Lines expand and the feeder solutions make them obsolete in their role as enablers for the multi-part trips.

There is not "light railway" to Santiago, but high speed train service slated to that segement with commercial usage during the off hours (read closing time to restart of operations) of the passenger services.

This is what will be common (type not same model) during the passenger day time service on the tracks from Santiago to SD:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/S103.jpg




And this will be taking the rails during the time that passenger service off time:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pg/350px-DTTX_724681_20050529_IL_Rochelle.jpg





And this is the other factor that will also make the SD Metro more profitable during its own off time, with services to be rendered via the L3 and L4 lines to and from ports, airports, industrial parks:


http://www.protovisionmodels.com/images/well_300x94_single.jpg



a high speed electric train line (your first photo) is going to be compatible and use the same rail lines with rail cars (your second photo) that are clearly designed to be pulled/pushed by a conventional diesel locomotive.

And what will happen to the second line of the Metro and the SD/Santiago train when/if the PLD regains power in 2012?


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
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Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
a high speed electric train line (your first photo) is going to be compatible and use the same rail lines with rail cars (your second photo) that are clearly designed to be pulled/pushed by a conventional diesel locomotive.

And what will happen to the second line of the Metro and the SD/Santiago train when/if the PLD regains power in 2012?


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

High speed rail can and is used with cargo services all around the world, in some countries they even make use of the tracks during the same service schedules! The type of feed that the high speed passenger trains will use is overhead feed lines, but at a height that clears the double loaded well cars for the commercial services. As you said, the motor units that will pull the commercial cargo are not electrical but conventional fuel sources, including renewable ones. The rail will be mix use and designed for that end as intended, since that's why the system will be able to make a profit when not in passenger duties alone.

The high speed service will have two types of schedules: One will be a non-stop fast run between Santiago and SD, whilst the other will be a regular interval stop service in other towns and points along the rails.

Even if the PLD loses the administration come 2012, an agreement was made to have the new administration follow up the work as intended on the full completion L2, not so on the L3, L4, L5, L6, L7 and Santiago/SD high speed/commercial rail. Much less for the Santiago Metro...

If the PLD wins, the work on all the lines will continue and the Santiago/SD HVT start as soon as the Los Alcarrizos super station is built and in operations. The importance of the HVT Santiago/SD link to the L2 is that without the passenger factor, the economic sense of the costs and operation just for the commercial rail usage will doom the project. One service will complement the other economically and create a self solvency seldom seen in these type of railways.

I doubt the PRD will be so stupid to play politics and forgo the essential extensions and listed projects, there's no major argument to say that the PLD is the only party with a big project mind in the country. Just as with any other place, politics play one thing on the news and talk, whilst they do the other behind closed doors.
 

dv8

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Sep 27, 2006
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gee, i did stir a bucket full of s**t, didn't i? :)
i should maybe change my question. it is clear that there is no expecting of quick return on an investment like this. most possibly there is no return as such but i was wondering if the metro was at least meeting it's daily operational costs. i understand the answer is still "no".
personally i am big supporter of public transport, it works well in london, after all. but i am afraid it is not exactly doable in DR ecause of transport sindicos. i suggested decapitation as a form of persuasion to accept some reforms: set rutas, set bus stops, normal buses insetad of cars and so on. you know, just like in europe or america where public transport serves, well, PUBLIC and not few fat influential individuals, most specifically this dude looking like homeless tramp, whatever his name is (he is a diputado but his name escaped my memory now).
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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gee, i did stir a bucket full of s**t, didn't i? :)
i should maybe change my question. it is clear that there is no expecting of quick return on an investment like this. most possibly there is no return as such but i was wondering if the metro was at least meeting it's daily operational costs. i understand the answer is still "no".
personally i am big supporter of public transport, it works well in london, after all. but i am afraid it is not exactly doable in DR ecause of transport sindicos. i suggested decapitation as a form of persuasion to accept some reforms: set rutas, set bus stops, normal buses insetad of cars and so on. you know, just like in europe or america where public transport serves, well, PUBLIC and not few fat influential individuals, most specifically this dude looking like homeless tramp, whatever his name is (he is a diputado but his name escaped my memory now).

As you can read from my post there's more to the answer than a simple "yes" or "no"! The dynamics involved are several for the time being and will not change in the short term.

The actual fare charged today is not the real fare that will prevail for the service, once the L2 and feeder lines kick in. The L2 is to be done by late 2012 and enter commercial services later on, after all tests and certifications are completed.

To put it in simpler expat language: If the Metro was to be allowed to charge the actual and expected fare, the system would be more than able to provide for the costs and slightly push a meager profit as is. Why not do so now you may ask, given how bad things are around the world economically? The answer is that you have to first entice people to the new transportation offering and provide assurance that it's reliable, cheap, clean, safe, on time and most importantly blackout proof!

There's an education process for cultures where such systems where never even heard about. There was a time in the DR when ONATRATE new buses with A/C ran the routes with most seats empty, while conchos were packed like sardines on the same roads and time. People needed to learn to trust the new service and not worry about being left on the hook, if it failed miserably on their way to work and back.

There's a learning curve for everything and the Metro is not the lesser of the ones to be learned about in the DR.
 

CFA123

Silver
May 29, 2004
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Pichardo,
This whole idea of freight transport makes no sense. If it were cross-continent as in the U.S., okay.

But within the capital, or from the capital to Santiago?

From Santiago for a 2 hour trip to the capital by truck... how does it possibly make sense economically or timewise to take freight from a location in santiago to a train depot using local carriers... unload... administration... place on train... send to capital... administration... unload... put on local delivery in capital... and send to destination - when it can simply be picked up in Santiago, driven to the capital in 2 hours, and be delivered?

You're making what's a 2-3 hour transfer something that would take 24-48 hours and add cost. Any logistics manager would tell you what you're suggesting is inefficient at best.
 
Jan 9, 2004
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If the PRD wins...

Even if the PLD loses the administration come 2012, an agreement was made to have the new administration follow up the work as intended on the full completion L2, not so on the L3, L4, L5, L6, L7 and Santiago/SD high speed/commercial rail. Much less for the Santiago Metro...

If the PLD wins, the work on all the lines will continue and the Santiago/SD HVT start as soon as the Los Alcarrizos super station is built and in operations. The importance of the HVT Santiago/SD link to the L2 is that without the passenger factor, the economic sense of the costs and operation just for the commercial rail usage will doom the project. One service will complement the other economically and create a self solvency seldom seen in these type of railways.

I doubt the PRD will be so stupid to play politics and forgo the essential extensions and listed projects, there's no major argument to say that the PLD is the only party with a big project mind in the country. Just as with any other place, politics play one thing on the news and talk, whilst they do the other behind closed doors.



in 2012.....and the work on all the lines continue......would that not be a political first. Seems to me that in the past, once the government changed hands, all projects of the prior administration were abandoned/halted for newer "more important" projects.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 

dv8

Gold
Sep 27, 2006
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As you can read from my post there's more to the answer than a simple "yes" or "no"! The dynamics involved are several for the time being and will not change in the short term.

no, no, pichardo. you ain't worming your way our of it with excuses. i don't wanna know about no dynamics. i don't wanna know about no costs of L2. all i want to know is: how much does it cost daily to operate existing line? is incoming money anywhere close to that cost?

i have a full understanding of the necessity of decent public transport, even if only to pi** off that hobo deputado guy, whatshisface. metro (or any other organized PUBLIC public trasport) is good. the government may have to sponsor it, i do not mind. they'd steal money from us with some or other taxes to make up for this. i am asking about cost vs profit out of curiosity.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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the title of the thread is...Does the Metro make money? this is Pichardo's reply to an assertion that it does not

For you that's the answer, since it's what you want to read and hear. For others is a different one, since we all know what to expect in the mid term!

since we know what to expect in the mid term? mid term what? what does the mid term have to do with today?


If you call over US$19 million a year non-money then it's ok to surmise it doesn't...

The facts are not always yes or no in this people crowded Earth, there are a lot of other words that fit in between those two.

I provided a very simple and clear breakdown of how the Metro revenues are quantified and where to spent. Where and how much comes from the gov subsidy for the operations and how it goes about.

Any person can put two and two together and see what it creates on revenues and what it's completely fit to provide as of the next day, if fares are allowed to be what they always meant to be. The L1 is not only able to cover operations as is, but more importantly financially sound long term. The ridership will continue to grow for sure and the revenues with it, as lower cost energy solutions are added to the long term prospect of the system as well.

Remove the funding send from collections created by the L1 to the works of the L2 and feeder systems, shut down the gov subsidy and place fares to the actual rate they belong and that gives you the answer I provided clear as water since my first post: The SD Metro is financially able to cover the operating expenses rather well!

The gov is bypassing opposition to funds for the L2 work and even L1 feeder bus terminals in process, by diverting the revenues from fares to the works 100%. Keeping the budget approved subsidy as the backdrop for that funding to work, as it has now for the longest time.

The numbers are there to prove it 100% and factual, unbiased to both supporters and opposition...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
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Pichardo,
This whole idea of freight transport makes no sense. If it were cross-continent as in the U.S., okay.

But within the capital, or from the capital to Santiago?

From Santiago for a 2 hour trip to the capital by truck... how does it possibly make sense economically or timewise to take freight from a location in santiago to a train depot using local carriers... unload... administration... place on train... send to capital... administration... unload... put on local delivery in capital... and send to destination - when it can simply be picked up in Santiago, driven to the capital in 2 hours, and be delivered?

You're making what's a 2-3 hour transfer something that would take 24-48 hours and add cost. Any logistics manager would tell you what you're suggesting is inefficient at best.



I think you're a bit lost here:

The freight rail will service the cargo from the North of the country (mainly the industry and agriculture sectors) to the ports of Haina and Caucedo, same on the back haul.

From the industrial park's own yards (rail will be placed along all the industrial blocks) the containers are filled on the fitted rail dock, inspected and sealed (pretty much the same as they do now with wheeled containers) and set on pick up schedule for that night shift.

The yard motor latches the well car seating container, scans the codes, and sets for the next one. Once all well cars are latched, the yard motor checks with administration and checks out the load to the waiting area. The next yard will do the same until all well cars are set, those that require double decking, are in a special part of the yard fitted to that end. They are loaded and secured, scanned and the yard motor again checks out with administration to place the convoy in the waiting area.

The process gets repeated for each industrial park/yard that's on that night's scheduled pickup call. Once the pickups are done with by the yard motors, the engine arrives to pick up the convoy of well cars and latches them for departure. They check with administration heading out and take their route towards the next pickup for the night. This process repeats for each zone and once the engine hits the maximum gross load it can safely pull, it departs towards the port of shipping. The engine can repeat this several times during the scheduled commercial use of the rails, no matter how many well cars are seating in the waiting areas, all the loads will reach the ports on time for shipping out.

At designated port facility (in this case lets say Haina), the train arrives to a special section where the cargo is received, scanned and checked using an x-ray, radiation and other security stuff in place for that reason. The train clears the inspection process and unlatches the convoy into a waiting section that dismounts the containers from the well cars in mere minutes per each. The containers are handled as they always are in the port and find their respective loading section, where they sit until their ship is ready and in the berth.

The process from the ports to the industrial parks is the same but on reverse!

Any logistical manager would tell you that dealing with an untold number of tractor trailers with individual containers in their back, is crazy when compared to rail freighters...

First of all the bulk of containerized exports from the DR come from industrial parks and large agricultural enterprises, all of which are now hauled by trucks wherever they need to go and sit. The commercial rail will simplify the majority of that shipping process to the docks by a great percentage.

Which is more efficent, cost effective, time saving and rather easier to manage:

100 people departing in 100 cars on the road from Santiago to the port of Haina, all driving and having to clear independently the security and administrative checks at both points, than a single 100 passenger bus leaving the same place to the same destination and carrying out the same process per vehicle?????

It's that simple!

The freight service on rails is aimed at import/exports from the productive sectors of the country. As things go along, new yards will pop up in key places to allow independent shippers and small to medium biz to enjoy the same savings and services.

What you miss greatly is that yard motors, are in charge of the daily task of readying the well cars in the industrial park's rail yard for the engine to come latch them up in a single stroke. The engine only has to sit idle for about minutes to clear security and administrative checks. Each stop for pickups is the same for engines all along the way. There's no 24/48 hours of waiting, etc... In fact the very reason of doing the rolling at nights, saves on many aspects that still kill so many biz today in those parks: Delays of outgoing and incoming containers. There's no such thing on a dedicated rail system for the freight trains...