Dominican History and heritage

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
Maybe we ought to implement some posting rules like OneDropRule.org, basically if one tries makes unsubstantiated claims (re w/o references noted) about history etc. their account is immediately locked for a period of time. Repeated violations increase the amount of time.

Based on this, I'm afraid Pichardo's account would have been locked hace mucho. I for one in my life have never confronted a person so consistently refuses to defend claims nor chooses to acknowledge errors or even challenges to his rubbish. One might as well be talking Chinese for all the difference it makes. Ni hao ma? :ermm:

When the shoes fit in you feet, take a hint...
I never dismiss anything in life as sure as hell, nobody can be said to hold the last word on ANYTHING debated.
I for one don't use innuendos to belittle others I don't agree at all with, certainly the first tell tale of somebody who once challenged, seeks an exit to avoid having his opinion debated and questioned by others.

Imagine if we as the human civilization had accepted a few given truths about our own history in this world, as the last word on the matter; how many and few our history facts would have been obscured and buried underneath "accepted" and "proven" truths like people of color are not as equally able to perform tasks like the superior White race...

Debate is the only vehicle that provides a general consensus and therefore a never ending dust up, on those things that we call facts and the real history of our kind...

I use my learned abilities to discern facts provided to me and compare them with tangible known, like the fact that everything old is new again, to provide an anchor in providing a sound analysis of the issues debated.

But then again, who was first: The chicken or the egg???
 

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
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Santiago
When the shoes fit in you feet, take a hint...
I never dismiss anything in life as sure as hell, nobody can be said to hold the last word on ANYTHING debated.
I for one don't use innuendos to belittle others I don't agree at all with, certainly the first tell tale of somebody who once challenged, seeks an exit to avoid having his opinion debated and questioned by others.

Imagine if we as the human civilization had accepted a few given truths about our own history in this world, as the last word on the matter; how many and few our history facts would have been obscured and buried underneath "accepted" and "proven" truths like people of color are not as equally able to perform tasks like the superior White race...

Debate is the only vehicle that provides a general consensus and therefore a never ending dust up, on those things that we call facts and the real history of our kind...

I use my learned abilities to discern facts provided to me and compare them with tangible known, like the fact that everything old is new again, to provide an anchor in providing a sound analysis of the issues debated.

But then again, who was first: The chicken or the egg???

My statement includes no innuendos - it is straightforward and simple English.

I can talk until I'm blue in the fact but when will you realize that facts aren't something that somehow you can wish away by your mere presense of will.

FACT is much of the history of the DR is just that, fact - and all these fruitless attempts to change it only hurt your credibilty. This isn't meant to offend anybody, but only to establish the truth.
 

A.Hidalgo

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Apr 28, 2006
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Pichardo insist on writing nonsense about the supposed small African presence in DR. I have linked sources before that make his pronouncements pure blah blah. May I recommend that he get on the metro and got to the El Museo del Hombre Dominicano...just realized that he'll need to wait till December for that if at all.:cheeky: Plenty of historical facts there.

La pol?tica real estimul? oficialmente los enlaces matrimoniales entre
espa?oles e indias desde 1501. Los espa?oles tomaron esposas ind?genas, ya que muy pocas mujeres
espa?olas emigraron a La Hispaniola.4 Pero tambi?n tomaron mujeres africanas por esposas. En la
isla hab?a mujeres africanas por tarde desde 1501, ya que en ese a?o una de ellas (que aparentemente
no era esclava) aparece en los registros oficiales como fundadora de un dispensario m?dico.5 A lo
largo de todo el siglo XVI la poblaci?n africana de la isla?tanto esclava como libre?aument?
dram?ticamente
, especialmente luego de que la industria azucarera reemplazara a la miner?a como
punto de enfoque de la econom?a en los a?os 1520, con el consiguiente aumento en la importaci?n
de supervisores experimentados y de obreros esclavos africanos, tanto legal como ilegal. Con el
aumento de la poblaci?n africana en la isla, aument? tambi?n la frecuencia de sus uniones
conyugales con espa?oles y ta?nos.
Trans for bolded words----Since 1501 Spaniards also took African women as wives. Throught the XVI century the African population -slaves as well as free-increased dramatically.
Museo del Hombre Dominicano
Look under Cultura-Dra. Lynne A. Guitar.


Other sources indicating a large African slave presence. No internet links so a visit to a library or book store would do.

Pedro Bono-"Papeles de Pedro F. Bono",ed. Emilio Rodriguez Demorizi(Barcelona:Graficas M.Pareja,1980)

On Caribbean peasantries see Mintz, "Caribbean Transformations",131-56 and "From Plantations to Peasantries in the Caribbean" in Caribbean Contours,ed. Sidney Mintz and Sally Price (Baltimore:Johns Hopinks
University Press,1985)127-54

"La esclavitud del negro en Santo Domingo(1492-1844) Carlos Esteban Deive(Santo Domingo:Museo del Hombre Dominicano)


Facts can be a stubborn thing.
 
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
Maybe we ought to implement some posting rules like OneDropRule.org, basically if one tries makes unsubstantiated claims (re w/o references noted) about history etc. their account is immediately locked for a period of time. Repeated violations increase the amount of time.

Based on this, I'm afraid Pichardo's account would have been locked hace mucho. I for one in my life have never confronted a person so consistently refuses to defend claims nor chooses to acknowledge errors or even challenges to his rubbish. One might as well be talking Chinese for all the difference it makes. Ni hao ma? :ermm:

No-people should not be banned for this reason. Better to debate with them. If you can demolish them in a debate, why ban them? Let people decide who is right or wrong for themselves.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Yes, this long post is a throw back to the old days on DR1, but read it!

Here we go again!

There are many factors that are being ignored on all sides of the arguments by everyone here.

Pichardo is claiming that the darkening of the average person in the DR is due to the heavy Haitian migration of the past 30 years. Hidalgo is claiming that most dark Dominicans today are descendants of slaves that were brought to the island, so on and so forth.

Folks, keep the following in mind:

1. Few, extremely few Dominicans are descendants of anyone that migrated to the island (or was forced to migrate) prior to the 1700s.

2. The DR was a severly underpopulated country/colony for much of its existence. In fact, when Trujillo was assassinated, the country barely had 3 million people, most of whom were children thanks to the extremely high birth rate among the rural population that encompassed the majority of the population at that time. The country didn't even reached 1 million in the early 1900s.

With those two factors in mind, the following must be taken into account:

1. The country went through three periods of increasing white population, first in the 1700s with the forced migration of Canary Islanders; then after independence with the arrival of large numbers of white Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Italians, Arabs/Middle Easterners in the mid to late 1800s and then during the Trujillo dictatorship with the arrival of more Spaniards and whites from other places like the Jews, the Hungarians, Italians, etc.

The Canary Islanders formed the original populations of most provincial towns in the country, given that many of those towns were established to house the influx of Canary Islanders (ie. Saman?, Ban?, etc).

The second wave of whites/light skin people settled mostly in SDQ, Puerto Plata, and the Cibao valley. The Arabs/Middle Easterners for the most part settled in the east, especially in San Pedro de Macoris.

The third wave of whites/light skin people settled mostly in SDQ.

2. The country went through several waves of black migration, the bulk being voluntary, as in arriving to the DR as free men/women.

The first sizable influx occurred during the Haitian occupation of the country, with the Haitian authorities implementing a campaign of incentive for white emigration and, simultaneously, black immigration to the eastern part of the island that they had conquered. The number of people in total that had arrived the DR prior to the early 1800s was very small, regardless if they were white, black, whatever.

During the Haitian occupation sizable number of blacks were arrived to the country, many of whom were descendants of African American slaves that lived in the American south and once getting their freedom opted to take advantage of Haiti's incentive. Most of these black Americans were settled along the north coast and in Saman?.

Once the DR got its independence, the growth of blacks was stifled because the incentive the Haitian government provided to support such was not continued by the newly independent Dominican government. In fact, after independence the opposite occurred; the black population stifled while the white population grew. This was the case until the end of the 1800s when Cuban and American investors began to develop the sugar industry in the practically uninhabited Eastern DR.

Keep in mind that up until this point, the eastern and southern part of the DR was practically without people with only a few tiny villages. The most heavily populated part of the country was the Cibao valley composed mostly of white and light skin people and even there with the elevated population density, it was high in relation to the desolate rest of the country; but it was still a small population.

Once the sugar industry was in process of being developed in the east, particularly in San Pedro and La Romana, the growth of blacks in the country resumed. This time, instead of black Americans, the influx was composed overwhelmingly of blacks from the English-speaking Caribbean known as Cocolos. They formed the labor force in the sugarcane plantations that began to develop in the late 1800s early 1900s.

After the American invasion in 1920s, Haitian labor began to be used in the sugarcane industry and supplanted the Cocolos. This immigration was under strict control during the Trujillo dictatorship.

After Trujillo's death it remain in control until the 1980s when all hell broke loose in Haiti and the mass influx of illegal Haitian immigrants began. From the 1980s forward is when the vast majority of the Haitians currently seen in the DR arrived, with a relatively few being in the DR since before the 1980s and most of these are tied to the sugar industry, something the Haitian immigrants from the 1980s forward are not really tied to.

Now, with the large influx of whites and blacks at the end of the colonial era, and especially after independence from Spain; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the vast majority of the people in the DR today are NOT descendants of people that arrived or were brought in the 1500s. Hence, data from that time period can't be used to justify today's population or to even assume that most of the blacks/mulattoes in the DR are descendants of slaves that were brought to the DR. Most are descendants of free blacks/mulattoes that arrived to the DR upon their own will.

Most Dominicans, regardless of color/race, are descendants of the population boom that started under the Trujillo dictatorship due to the political agenda of the regime to populate the island, hence encouraging people to have more kids and encouraging foreigners to move to the country. The boom took even greater momentum after the dictatorship, much of it being confined among the lower classes composed of sugarcane workers and manual laborers.

Last but not least, the small population of the country and the small number of people that migrated in absolute terms, leads to certainly incongruities in the way some people interpret data from long ago to justify today's population. Such incongruities can be seen by reading reports written by foreign visitors to the DR in times past.

Here are a two good examples. In both examples, the first photo is the source and the latter is the passage you should read regarding how they described the population of the DR in the early 1900s, via anecdotal evidence.

Example 1 (essay was published in 1905):
proof1cj0.jpg


proof3ss7.jpg


Please notice the part that the author on his 1905 visit to the DR said "the inhabitants are, with very few exceptions, white".

Example 2 (essay was published in the 1920s):

prueva1dx4.jpg


Start to read the last paragraph on the right and then continue on the other page:

prueva2ol6.jpg


prueva3sb2.jpg


So, my advice to people interested in studying the evolution of the Dominican population through the years is to analyze everything within context and then, read articles/journals that were written by travelers from yesteryear and see how they describe the Dominican population. You will notice what I have noticed, the average Dominican looks different in different time periods.

-NALs
 

A.Hidalgo

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Apr 28, 2006
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Hidalgo is claiming that most dark Dominicans today are descendants of slaves that were brought to the island, so on and so forth.

Phew....I'll just deal with this. I never made that claim. As the matter of fact the source that I quoted clearly indicated slaves and free(slaves).

A lo largo de todo el siglo XVI la poblaci?n africana de la isla?tanto esclava como libre?aument?
dram?ticamente,

Museo del Hombre Dominicano


On another note I'm just curious on how you define mixed.
Ethnic groups: Dominican Republic
Definition Field Listing
mixed 73%, white 16%, black 11%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/dr.html
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
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A.Hidalgo said:
Phew....I'll just deal with this. I never made that claim. As the matter of fact the source that I quoted clearly indicated slaves and free(slaves).
I hope you know that there is no such thing as a free slave. In any case, if you would've read my post, you would not had missed the part in which I said that the population of the island at that time was miniscule, to such an extent that very very very few modern Dominicans are actual descendants of anyone from the 1500s. Adding a few hundreds would had dramatically increase the population of any segment of the society in those times.

Given the population shifts through the centuries with mass migration to and from the island, using data from the 1500s is irrelevant to explain the make up of today's population.

A.Hidalgo said:
On another note I'm just curious on how you define mixed.
What about it? The mixture occurred in the country, they didn't migrated to the DR from anywhere else. The majority of the people that migrated to the DR were either white or blacks. The mixture occurred when the two met on the island, not before.

So, to what exactly are you attempting to allude?

-NALs
 

A.Hidalgo

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Apr 28, 2006
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You've got obfuscation down to a science dude. Anyway to me a free slave means a person who at one point in time was a slave, then at another point in time that person is no longer a slave, thus free from slavery. Not clear enough?

Now you say the population was miniscule. The quote below is from my post #34. I have linked a source, but you will probably agree with COO Pichardo and say the Library of Congress does not count, they are not Dominican. Can you link a source with other figures? Now according to the figures mulattoes or mixed is the larger of the population group numbering approximately 70,000. Oh yea miscegenation was alive and well in those times. Wonder if that's what bothers you.

My point in all of this is that the African component was around way before the 30 years Pichardo says and that apparently you are defending? or am i reading you wrong.

The importation of African slaves began in 1503. By the nineteenth century, the population was roughly 150,000: 40,000 of Spanish descent, an equal number of black slaves, and the remainder of freed blacks or mulattoes. In the mid-1980s, approximately 16 percent of the population was considered white and 11 percent black; the remainder were mulattoes.
Dominican Republic : Country Studies - Federal Research Division, Library of Congress Look under Racial and Ethnic Groups
 

AmericanSentiment

New member
Mar 2, 2008
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Have not heard back yet

I still have not heard back from the email I was given,

But from what I read on history of DR and the America's

The spanish in those days made the Indians slaves and when they were killed off in numbers they begin taking blacks off the coast of Africa to replace the Indians, and what I have read also was that DR tried to save the Taino's in the 16 th century but coundn't since so many had died off and the last remaining Taino's was in the 16th century.

By the that time a majority of the population in Hispaniola was Black due to slaves being bought over from Africa,

This was a process that was repeated across North & South America. Wjile the Indians were dying off, more slaves were being bought over from Africa. A big eveidence of this was Brazil's east coast where the most African slaves were bought between North & south America.

But I notice that due to constant conflict with Haiti Dominicans want to erase their African heritage. Not all Dominicans have African heritage but a majority do from recent history books I read.

I know there was a Taino forum, but I am still waiting for information from a guy that someone posted here for me and will get back with his information as well.
 
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Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Santiago
I thought this might be relevant:

Jose Alvarez de Peralta writes that, at the time of the treaty between Spain and France on June 3, 1777 at Aranjuez, the Dominican population was, not counting the Haitian side, 400,000. The break down was as follows:

blancos (white)........................................... ..................100,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Blanca........................................100, 000
Mulatos........................................... ..............................70,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Negro..........................................60, 000
Negros............................................ ..............................70, 000
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
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Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans, no longer a myth

Perhaps this can help you in your search, Sentiment:

New Study Confirms Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans
Dominican Republic (UCTP Taino News) - According to a new DNA study conducted in the Dominican Republic a large segment of the country?s population retains indigenous Taino ancestry through their mother?s bloodline. The study, conducted by the University of Puerto Rico, reveals that approximately 15-18% of Dominicans have Native American Mitochondrial DNA out of a population of nearly 10,000,000.

The research is based on 1200 DNA samples taken throughout the island with some test areas revealing 90% of the subjects with Native ancestry. While the percentages are lower than similar studies conducted on the neighboring island of Puerto Rico, the estimates defy ?popular? accounts that the Indigenous Peoples were completely exterminated on that island.

?This study is a confirmation of what we have already known and promoted for years? stated Roberto Borrero, a representative of the United Confederation of Taino People. ?Our people continue to exist within the multi-cultural mosaic that is the Caribbean despite the genocidal campaigns that began against us 516 years ago with the arrival of Columbus.?

One interesting aspect of the study is that individuals tested in the Cibao region seem to have a different DNA sequence than those tested in the southern part of the island. While both sequences are indigenous the variants could shed some light on ancient migrations. The study also reveals that the Taino descendants from the Cibao area could have been relatively ?un-mixed racially? until more recent times.
 

Naked_Snake

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Sep 2, 2008
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(Cont...)

or this:

TWO ISLANDS...ONE HERITAGE? CREATING A TAINO IDENTITY

When the Spaniards arrived in Quisqueya and Boriqu?n (the indigenous names for Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic), there were over one million Tainos living on both islands. It was believed, up until recently, that all the Tainos were exterminated or absorbed by the Spanish colonizers. However, recent DNA mitocondrial studies suggest that this was not the case. In fact, Puerto Rican and Dominican DNA experts are challenging the ?total? extermination theory by showing that the Taino not only transmitted their culture, but their genes as well. It is believed that the descendants of the Taino live in - the Cordillera Central region of Puerto Rico and the Cibao region of the Dominican Republic.

Against this backdrop, an analysis is proposed to verify the existence of an ethno-cultural connection between the aboriginal Tainos and today?s Puerto Ricans and Cibae?os. The study will contribute to the raging debate over Taino heritage and identity in Boriquen and Quisqueya. For decades, Taino heritage and identity were based on archeological, geographic and historical evidence. This evidence helps us situate the Tainos in their natural ? cultural environment, however it says little about the ?total? extermination of the aborigines, and much less if they left any inheritors.

In the proposed study, an attempt will be made to determine under which measures and circumstances a multidisciplinary study could provide relevant information on a segment of the Puerto Rican-Dominican population claiming a Taino heritage, and the historical-cultural implications of such claims. In addition, the proposed study attempts to understanding the most important sociocultural, historical, and biogeophysical transformations that have left their imprint on the landscape and people of Boriquen and Quisqueya. Although understanding these transformations is crucial for the overall study, we are still left with the challenge of proving common heritage and disproving the total extermination theory. Without a doubt, genetic testing fills both voids by establishing a shared DNA or blood-link. However, it is the multidisciplinary evidence that will assist in the reinterpretation and redefinition of Taino history and culture, respectively.

The term heritage is defined in five ways: geophysical (referring to the territory or space occupied by the Tainos in ancient Boriquen and Quisqueya), historic-archaeological (evidence of a socioeconomic system and material culture), cultural (vestiges of Taino vocabulary, customs, traditions and beliefs), ethno-physical (in reference to the physical features of the alleged ?descendents? or ?inheritors? of the Tainos), and blood-link (the genetic connection to the Tainos). As defined, the term heritage draws from many disciplines, and goes well beyond what common definitions state. Following the same pattern of reasoning, the proposed study capitalizes on the following prespectives:

Anthropology: Ethnographic Studies / Human Ecology. Explains the evolution of socio-cultural systems. and organization; mode of reproduction.
Archaeology: Material Culture: Contextualizes Taino culture and situates it in its historical geographic and social milieu.
Geography: Biogeophysical / Toponymy Studies. Used for evaluating the physical transformation that have taken place in Boriquen and the Cibao..
Biomedical: DNA Genetic Testing: Illuminates the raging debate about whether there is a blood-link between the Tainos and present-day Boricuas and Cibae?os.


List of Studies and Topics

In order to better understand Taino culture this web site freely assembles what is currently known from scientific research, as well as themes based on speculation and outdated theories. Consequently, it treats all material regarding Taino history and culture as a valuable leaning experience. It is hoped that the information garnered here will lead to a greater understanding and appreciation of ancient and contemporary Taino culture in Boriqu?n and the Cibao region. The following list includes various works by Dominican and Puerto Rican authors.

Untitled Document
 
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SLATERSVILLE

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May 15, 2009
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Cibao and Southern part of islands people differ?

Is it possible that these people in Cibao have the Caribe Indian heritage?
These Caribes terrified the Tainos. They ate the Taino men, enslaved and impregnated their wives and they castrated their kids. Worst part, they fattened up their Taino/Caribe children and ate them too. Disgusting. Some Caribes eventually married into Taino families and gave up cannibalism but others remained on the island. But I always thought that both the Tainos and Caribes were Arawak??? Could be wrong though.

Also, it's VERY frustrating to hear the constant blame on Christopher Colombus. Yes, the Taino way of life was disturbed when he arrived however, when he returned to the island after the second voyage, all 39 of his men were dead. I find it highly unlikely that 39 foreign men in unfamiliar territory against 400,000 Tainos could be responsible for attacking the Taino women. They were visitors in foreign lands. Colombus is not fully responsible for their demise. Also, Colombus was basically forced out of power because the rest of the Spaniards didn't agree w/ his policies. So, many Tainos died during the slavery process in the hands of the SPAINARDS. A lot of Tainos died in mines, commit suicide, aborted or killed their own children etc. Not to mention the plagues that hit DR between 1492 and 1668.

There are MANY factors that attribute to the elimination of the Tainos. Many Spanish leaders. This is the DOMINICAN heritage. We the people.
 
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oceandiver

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Jun 8, 2009
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same roots, different culture-

In reading the different posts and in visiting the DR myself, I have definitely come to find that the U.S. and the DR have very different views on race. Much of this I am finding IS largely because of the DR's proximity to Haiti.

What I think should be mentioned about me and the majority. I would say around 80% of the black population in the U.S. IS mixed with Native American. In reading a book called "Black Indians" that gives a run down of all this, this fact is not mentioned much at all in popular history books. I imagine the same happened in the islands.

A huge majority is also mixed with white which is why there are so many so called "light skinned" black people with a hair that is not as woolly as that of a subsaharan west African.

In going to the D.R., and as a black man with features that are clearly a mix between black, native american, and possibly white (though my skin is a brownish red), I can honestly say that I never felt so at home because I was surrounded by so many people that were mixed looked just like me!

Its great that DR acknowledges the Indian in their blood as black people do not do this much at all. Its either your black or white. But we gotta let this whole thing go and stop this eurocentric view that white is "right" (as you watch the t.v. and the people def. don't reflect the majority of the population) and accept that, for what it is, the DR is a country of people mixed three ways mostly. As I said though, we tend to take things to extremes too often. In the US a little pigmentation is black, in the DR, a lot of pigmentation and your indian...lol

And as for how taino genes still being existent in dominicans today even though they were wiped out. Its easy to know how that happened. When two people mate many of the advantages or immunities to disease can be passed down to children. Children survive yet parents die and the genes get passed down from there.

Peace and love to all
 
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POPNYChic

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what percentage of the populace has "pelo malo" and uses relaxers? lol theres your answer. a sh*t ton. only place nappy hair comes from is AFRICA. like it or not, it is what it is. its extremely prevalent, even if some refuse to accept it.
 

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
It always amazes me that when the subject of African ancestry comes up in a Dominican forum we get two reactions.... one is that no hay racismo here and the other is somos indios.....

It would be interesting to see some of the text books actually used under Trujillo and one supposes under Balaguer as well

I know that I have seen some that were used in the States in the 40's and I remember reading one from the state of California which was was CLEARLY racist, I mean which actually spoke of Negros as an inferior race. So let us be aware that this was GLOBAL thinking, this was not thinking that was either confined to or orginated in the Dominican Republic. It was in Europe, in the States, throughout colonial Africa.

And let us also remember that this is an island nation, of Spanish colonial settlers, which was occupied by a Black nation and historically, I think that this is unique. Most of the conquering Haitian former slaves could not read or write.... and certainly had an enormous animosity towards any white person given the brutality of the slavery that was practiced by the French on the other side of the island.

But in the context of Europe as well, many Spaniards were considered to have a great deal of "African" blood because of the occupation by the Moors.

So it is a very specific and unique interaction here. What outsiders may see as racism, other Dominicans may clearly identify as "antiHaitianismo" which many applaud as nationalism and a way to protect their sovereignty.

There is no denying the white privilege here. One could assume that it is the assumption of money. It certainly exists. As it exists also in the States and in many other places around the world.

And perhaps it is important to have the discussion about common characteristics, about observations from the "outside" of how the Dominicans "look" racially, about how they must be "African" but it is no good to scream it at them... like whoa brother... you all gotta be black.. when certainly the Hispanic experience has been completely different than the African American experience and in the immigrant experience the two groups have been anything but brothers.....

So just like it does not make any sense to lots of people that that the Greeks and the Turks or the Serbs and Croats or Frick and Frack should see themselves as different, there are Dominicans who identify as AfroDominican and others who are Indio and others as Dominico Haitiano and frankly, that is their right, isn't it?

I don't think that they should have to feel defensive about it.

I chose to call myself white and African American. That is my choice.

You just can't see it from my blue eyes and my pelo bueno,

It is under my skin,way far back in my roots.
 
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POPNYChic

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its not "respectable" to deny very obvious and common facts, imo.

the u.s. has its own racial demons, what with slavery, jim crow, the one drop rule, laws against miscegenation, etc...so naturally it would be common for american blacks to go to DR and say "oh its just blacks".

thats just as innacurate as the claims that there is little african blood in us.

how hard is it for either side to acknowledge that its more complex than that and that our particular histories had a profound impact on how we view race? how hard is it to acknowledge that neither is right!

americans are wrong for wanting to classify anyone with a drop of black blood as "black" as if its a contaminant.

dominicans are wrong for the extreme colorism they exhibit. it took 22 years for me to come to my senses and stop hating my nappy hair and the brown color of my skin because it is so deeply embedded in our culture.

both parties need to do some serious soul searching and peel away those damaged, negative and hurtful ideals that were passed on by white opressors.

all over the world the same pecking order exists: rich, light-as-possible males first, above all. everyone else is ranked according to class, sex and race, with poor, dark females alllllllllll the way at the bottom.

its messed up and if we are smart enough to post on here and look up half-assed documents, then we are smart enough to educate ourselves so we can see the WHOLE picture too.

theres no defense for being colorist, racist, sexist, CLASSIST (the last of which is deemed perfectly fine by most---IT ISNT! ITS JUST AS BAD!).

no one should cling to hurtful bigoted ideologies just because its what you do. no one has that right, actually. as humans we owe it to each other to be better than that.
 

Vacara

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Kinky hair, broad nose, thick lips, dark skin. Of Course Africa is a big continent with lots of variety. Maybe the Dominican girl you taught doesn't have some African Heritage, how do you know, after all African looking might be something else.

This reply was so good it should have been made a sticky!!!
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Well, POPNY, I agree with you and I think that the election of Obama has had a great effect on lifting the morale of some of the people here. I remember asking two young women what they thought of him, before the election, and they said "he has a face, like nosotros" and overnight, the kids here started to talk about wanting to grow up to be like Obama- since before all they had were sports heros and singers.... and perhaps, in the second term, if there is one, Michele will let her hair grow natural... that will be great.

I was just trying to speak to the peculiarities of the ISLAND and the history here. That what we, as outsiders, may see as "racism" might be more properly called "xenephobia" or something else -- I mean the French and Germans are still not great friends, despite being the same race.

I do wonder about some things though... for instance, San Juan de Maguana, which is a very fertile valley, and should be very prosperous, and that whole northern region up to the border of Haiti to Belledare which should be very rich, but is in fact the poorest region on the border -- that must be political, because the people are very dark, isn't it? It is so rich agriculturally, far more fertile than the north of Santiago.

I don't understand it. Perhaps others can help.
 

POPNYChic

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Jul 27, 2009
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The answer to that is only one: The DR is a very wealthy country in natural resources...but its horribly managed! There is a general lack of education when it comes to that (and many other things). Those poor people could perhaps do something but....they dont know what or how. I'm sure theyve never even thought about it.

In the DR black often means poor...and poor almost always means highly uneducated. Rather than color I see great misguidance.

If the government implemented some sort of agency to educate folks in those conditions as to how to get the most of it, all would be well...but...I'm not sure the government wants "regular" people being rich. Unless some already rich dominicans are gonna profit, nothing is done.

Same as in the u.s. where neighborhoods with the lowest incomes also get the lowest quality education. Someone has to stay poor and do all the dirty work. Its all set up for that.