Dominican Spanish

[Marianopolita]

Re: posts 16-20 & some general comments.. long post

The last few comments reflect common observations about Spanish in the DR. Once again 'good' Spanish does exist however; the question at hand is about the Spanish of the 'average Dominican speaker' (from various socio-economic levels) as compared to other Spanish-speaking countries.

One significant factor is lack of education which is compounded by the numerous speech patterns both rural and urban, archaisms that are still abundant in the DR, illiteracy and semi-illiteracy of the population which has an impact on speech etc. These are key aspects that influence the way a population speaks and adopts to their own regionalisms and regional speech varieties. A simple example is there are Dominicans who do not understand other Dominicans which emphasizes the variety and poverty of language that is prevalent but this concept is not exclusive to the DR. In all Latin American countries you have levels of speech but notably in some countries even those considered poor speakers have a better command of Spanish than some of the speech heard in the DR and PR. An example of incorrect usage still prevalent is 'haiga', 'haigan' (which should be haya, hayan). This is very archaic and incorrect but it's part of the DR and PR vernacular. To my surprise in an email from a friend of mine, Nicaraguan, she wrote 'espero que haiga...'. Some erroneous forms that prevail in LA are common among certain speakers or countries.

If the Secretary of Education is serious about eradicating illiteracy (which I don't believe can be done in three years), the plan should include an analysis on where to focus by analyzing the speech patterns of the population, grammar deficiencies, understanding of verbs, specifically the verb haber, which I believe is really a weakness in the Dominican vernacular, and an emphasis on making the population more conscientious about the benefits of reading. The visual forms of speech will definitely improve one?s spelling which speaks to S. King's post about her own Spanish. Speaking enhances fluency but it is pointless to learn incorrect forms and pronunciation. One needs to understand the grammatical dynamics and see how words are written in order to detect personal strengths and weaknesses.

Last week I watched a documentary that aired on Univision about yola crossings via the Mona Channel and I thought about this thread when they interviewed the family members who lost relatives at sea or have no idea of their whereabouts. They were everyday Dominicans from Nagua and SFM which in my opinion was a good example of the DR vernacular. I noted the following comments:

'Tengamos que compartir la casa'
-incorrect usage of the subjunctive however common in some rural areas of the DR. It s/b tenemos que compartir la casa. The young mother was talking about their living situation in SFM.

'No ve?a casimente nada'
- one of the greatest flaws of Dominican speech since 'casimente' does not exist. It s/b 'casi'. It's classified as uneducated rural speech.

'T? vel hombre alto, grande, fuelte'
- in standard Spanish it s/b 'T? ves hombres altos, grandes, fuertes' (although the 's' will be dropped in the spoken language)

'T? hace mucha cosa por sobrevivir'
-in standard Spanish it s/b 'T? haces muchas cosas por sobrevivir' (although the 's' will be dropped in the spoken language)

Here are some grammatical examples from comments posted in newspaper that I read over the weekend. I will just post a few that stood out the most but there are many:

? 'ellos poder'- no pronoun needed in front of the infinitive. DR vernacular totally.
? Delen, dejenmen ? incorrect command forms- DR/ PR vernacular

ES PENOSO QUE NUETROS GOBIENOS SE HA ACOSTUMBRADO A QUE EL PUEBLO TENGA QUE HACERLE HUELGA PARA ELLOS PODER CUMPLIR CON SU DEBER. GOBENATES?.

(from El Caribe)

ASI MISMO DEJEN DE ESTAR CONFIANDO EN LA JUSTICIA Y MIREN A VER SI USTEDES MISMOS DELEN PENA DE MUERTE A ESOS DELINCUENTES, TIENEN QUE MATARLOS A TODOS Y SALGAN DE ESO YA...........

(From almomento.net)

YO NO SOY BURRO PARA COMER TANTA YERVA, A MI DEJENMEN CON MI FRITURA,MIS CHIMI,POLLO FRITO Y TODO LO QUE TIENE QUE VER CON GRASA ,CLARO SI USTED SUFRE DE COLESTEROL TIENE QUE CONVERTIRTE EN BURRO........

(From almomento.net)

I'm not very proud of my Spanish despite being a native speaker. Being from the River Plate region in South America, we do mispronounce many words, but compared to Dominican Spanish, even ours is great! ?.

In general terms the greatest difference about Spanish from that region is the phonetic pronunciation. The prominent /sh/ sound in words that begin with /ll/ is what categorizes Spanish from the River Plate other than very distinct accents. As well, the characteristic usage of 'vos' and its verb forms are key aspects about Spanish spoken in Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay. In general terms Argentina and Uruguay are not classified as areas where Spanish is considered radically different from the standard other than the above mentioned features.



/mplta.

 

[SKing]

Wow, that's a shame.
I don't pretend to speak English perfectly although it is my primary language but you would think that the newspapers and TV programs would do better.
Are they teaching this speech in the schools here or is it just picked up? Even with several of the administrators at my kids school I have yet to hear an "S" where it belongs in their speech, and these are educated people.
BTW...the International English teaching schools here aren't much better...I am continuously correcting my son's teacher in the homework that she gives him........I mean, it's K-5, not rocket science: Thursday he was given a sentence to copy 3 times
"The ball is my"
What the #!@* !!
SHALENA

 

[LaTeacher]

the problem in the education isn't going to get better until the people educating pick up their game. my brother-in-law brought home a spanish test from the university last week on which he scored an 80 of 100. the first sentence in the essay question was "lo celulare son nesecario.." it just got worse from there and there was not ONE point taken off for the mistakes. my husband talked to the prof. and she told him "well, i don't worry about those classes too much, they're studying to be engineers not spanish teachers!"

i'm sure the teacher didn't even realize there were mistakes until it was pointed out to her.

the speaking of spanish in the DR? every region has their own dialect - the same as with english. as far as "comiendo la S" that's accentual and changing the "R" and vowel sounds... are regional as well, i'd be more concerned with the gramatical use of the language, but that might be because i have a strong philly accent and say some hilarious things that i don't even realize i'm saying...

 

[Chirimoya]

LaTeacher - I think I've said this in previous discussions - if you look at the official Dominican schoolbooks like those used by my son who is currently in 3rd grade, the Spanish textbooks do go through all those spelling problem areas systematically. They are teaching them the difference between c, s and z; ll and y; j and g; etc. So what more can the education authorities do? There's no doubt that they need to improve training for teachers so that what is written in the text books actually permeates the students' brains and gets applied, and, more importantly, to promote reading, but this is really up to parents to encourage.

I have no doubt that readers are generally better spellers and have a much richer vocabulary than non-readers, not to mention broader general knowledge. Problem is, a lot of people of all ages I've met seem to have a mental block when it comes to reading. I know of two Dominican children who are said to be gifted, have been skipped up a grade, etc but at the same time had still not yet read a full-length children's book at the age of 10. The parents in question were the ones who declared their children "would never be able to read THAT" when presented with a copy of a book like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

My son, who is 8, is not exactly the star student but is currently ploughing through the Harry Potter series with complete ease and genuine enthusiasm. The fact that he sees both his parents reading on a daily basis and that we used to read to him every evening until a couple of years ago is what has made all the difference.

"The ball is my"

One of my son's former teachers - not a native English speaker - wrote something like "a bird have wings to help him fly".

 

[LaTeacher]

i know that the elementary books have all of it, it doesn't mean it's being taught. i mean, how beneficial is it for kids to "cut and paste" spelling words from a newspaper ALL OF THE TIME. making lists of words isn't going to help with reading skills and just because you can spell doesn't mean you can read. obviously the parents need to play a role in school, but the point is that the parents can't help if they have no clue what is going on. if they are illiterate, what help can they give their kids?

and the skipping of grades? i currently have a 7 year old in 4th grade who doesn't even know how to spell his own name. i always wonder who decides to skip and what the reasons are? good social skills? i also have the son of a "funcionario" studying with me with severe dyslexia and reading problems yet somehow has the highest grades in his class. his parents know the grades are beefed up because of who THEY are, but haven't really done anything to fix the situation.

 

[Marianopolita]

Sample from the media...

I can't comment on the speech of the teachers you mentioned but in general they should be role models of the spoken and written language. The teachers will inevitably sound Dominican and speak with Dominican speech characteristics but they need to set an example or be an example for the students. The /s/ is dropped to a certain degree by many Spanish speakers because the properties of language allow for that phenomenon also because Spanish can be spoken at a much faster pace than English in general (my opinion only) but in the DR, PR and Cuba it's a salient feature that's the difference. However, although it may not be pronounced by the vast majority of Dominican speakers it still must be written where required. i.e. verb forms and as a marker of the plural. It is incorrect to write t? necesita it s/b t? necesitas. There are no exceptions to this rule in the written language. Look at this recent post in the Spanish forum http://www.dr1.com/forums/740105-post4.html.

This is the struggle I refer to in my posts about the writing of the average Dominican.

In terms of the media, journalists are carefully selected based on certain criteria. Clear speech and diction is part of the requirements however, depending on the country, some journalists may or may not qualify for reporting on certain Spanish language stations. I found an interesting news clip from MegaTV (MiamiTeve). Listen to Allan Villafa?a. Just by listening to the way he speaks I know he's Cuban, but I think he represents the norm in terms of dropping of the /s/. He missed it on a few words but nothing excessive. Also, listen to how he said 'llamar'.

YouTube - Univisi?n, gran despido de personal, incluyendo presentadores estelares.


/mplta

Wow, that's a shame.
I don't pretend to speak English perfectly although it is my primary language but you would think that the newspapers and TV programs would do better.
Are they teaching this speech in the schools here or is it just picked up? ....SHALENA

 

[BIZC8]

Guys, guys, guys... I gotta tell ya. I'm Dominican. Dominican from birth. I went to pre-K & elementary school in DR. Migrated to the US with my parents and started attending high school & college here in the US. I have also noticed the horrors made by some of my compatriots both in the media as well as the average common citizen in the street both when they try to articulate their thoughts as well as when they try to write them on paper.

I have to admit - it can be a real challenge to carry out an effective form of communication with, between or rather among some of them. BUT, I also have to say that having attended pre-K, elementary schools in the DR myself, my Spanish is considerably superior both orally as well as written when compared to most others you find on the web; and please do not take this as an opportunity to glorify myself. Nothing could be further from the truth. The point I'm trying to make is that I can't understand where the ball got dropped. I don't know if the school system is to blame or if the individual person is. I attended a small elementary school in the barrio of San Carlos and then Colegio Don Bosco in Santo Domingo up to the eighth grade.

I've managed to stay current with Spanish by reading A LOT! However, so do a bunch of other people in the DR ALL OF THE TIME. I read Spanish in my spare time. I have to manage my life in English otherwise, but can't seem to get past the amazement of how much and how many people abuse the language.

So what is it? The school system or is it the person attending school? I tend to incline towards the latter for you get out of school what you put into it. Yes, the skill level and education of the teachers do play a role, but by the time you get to college/university you're (or at least should be) versed enough to realize where you stand as it pertains to your communication skills.

Adem?s, no hay excusa alguna para justificar los horrores gramaticales y ortogr?ficos de hoy en d?a con la cantida de tecnolog?a que tenemos a nuestra disponibilidad. No se justifica y punto.

 

[rolfdog]

I had to vote excellent. They ALL speak spanish way better than I do!

Steve

 

[LaTeacher]

i think maybe the real problem is a mix of many things. we learn language from our care takers and if they don't speak properly, we won't either. it can be rectified in school, perhaps, but if the teachers also don't speak properly it won't be fixed. we learn to write by reading and the severe lack of reading materials of quality (i'm not talking about the condensed, childish versions that pass as acceptable even in the most respectable institutions) inhibits what one can write. studying grammar doesn't help unless it is collaboration with the language in action (reading in this case). it's hard to expect children and even college students to fix something they don't know is broken, either. if they have no real example, other than the novelas on tv and newspapers that are filled with ortografical errors, they don't realize there is a problem.

 

[asopao]

Marianopolita:

The question was:

"What is your opinion about Spanish spoken in the DR as compared to other countries?

The question was about " spoken" Spanish, but then on the explanations of the choices you added " written".

Concerning Quisqueyan Castillian, like I've said before. There is a differece between " A Dominican speaking Dominican dialect and a Dominican speaking standard Castillian".


Dominican Castillian dialect: Yo voy pa la cas'e Juan, la que ta en la equina.

Dominican Standard Castillian( or full castillian as I call it): yo voy para la casa de Juan, la que esta en la esquina.


The dialect might be viewed by other Castilian speakers of the Americas as " incorrect".

" look how they take away syllables, consonants, etc !"

People from other countries find it amusing if I talk like the first example. What they don't know if that I have the ability of saying:

" Yo voy para la casa de Juan, la que esta en la esquina".

There are hundreds of thousands of Dominicans that CHOOSE to speak in the dialect, but this is misinterpreted by foreigners as

" uneducated". No it isn't. They get surprised when they hear me speaking like Jorge Ramos from Univision.

That's just a form of prejudice, in my opinion.

" oh, look how that Dominican speaks Castillian, he butchers the language"

I don't see it like that, I see it that I'm speaking my dialect of the Castillian language. I can speak like Jorge Ramos or Leonel Fernandez if I want to.

I can see somebody that didn't go to school, or to a good school, can have some difficulty trying to speak like President Fernandez, and it can show in the spelling.

All I'm saying is that many foreigners are just too quick to judge.

I explained this to a Colombian friend, ( in full Castillian) and he agrees.

 

[LaTeacher]

asopao - i think you're on point. speaking with an accent does not mean uneducated. do americans butcher english because they have a different accent than brits? no.

it's the writing, reading and comprehension of language that is the problem. not the accent with which one speaks.

 

[Marianopolita]

Not sure if you read all my posts...

Asopao,

I know your views on this issue as you have repeated them previously in the past. If you look at the history of my posts you will discover the same.

I will be brief:


1/ Did you read all my posts before responding? If you did you will note I provided newspaper examples and examples from a documentary that aired on 03/24. Specific to your point those were examples of the spoken language. The newspaper examples are valid too because many people write the way they speak especially if their education level is low.

2/ Regarding your other points, we are all entitled to our opinion.

3/ Accents are not the issue here, the poll is about the speech patterns, grammar, spelling etc. as defined in the first post of the thread.

- back to reading the thread. I think I have made my point here with the examples used.


/mplta

 

[asopao]

asopao - i think you're on point. speaking with an accent does not mean uneducated. do americans butcher english because they have a different accent than brits? no.

it's the writing, reading and comprehension of language that is the problem. not the accent with which one speaks.

Lateacher,

I never said anything about " accent". I was talking about "dialect".
dialect and accent are totally different.

 

[asopao]

Asopao,

I know your views on this issue as you have repeated them previously in the past. If you look at the history of my posts you will discover the same.

I will be brief:


1/ Did you read all my posts before responding? If you did you will note I provided newspaper examples and examples from a documentary that aired on 03/24. Specific to your point those were examples of the spoken language. The newspaper examples are valid too because many people write the way they speak especially if their education level is low.

Ok, I understand what you're saying, but those examples that you showed are too extreme. I don't hear that many people talking like that in DR, that is just atrocious Castillian.

you posted:

'Tengamos que compartir la casa'
-incorrect usage of the subjunctive however common in some rural areas of the DR. It s/b tenemos que compartir la casa. The young mother was talking about their living situation in SFM.

'No ve?a casimente nada'
- one of the greatest flaws of Dominican speech since 'casimente' does not exist. It s/b 'casi'. It's classified as uneducated rural speech.

'T? vel hombre alto, grande, fuelte'
- in standard Spanish it s/b 'T? ves hombres altos, grandes, fuertes' (although the 's' will be dropped in the spoken language)

'T? hace mucha cosa por sobrevivir'
-in standard Spanish it s/b 'T? haces muchas cosas por sobrevivir' (although the 's' will be dropped in the spoken language)

Here are some grammatical examples from comments posted in newspaper that I read over the weekend. I will just post a few that stood out the most but there are many:

• 'ellos poder'- no pronoun needed in front of the infinitive. DR vernacular totally.
• Delen, dejenmen – incorrect command forms- DR/ PR vernacular"

I haven't seen that many Dominicans talking like that while in DR, at least not in my neck of the woods. That's what people call " porionez".

Is true what you say, about people writing the way they speak, I think I've said " haiga" in the example that you gave, but those examples above are just " too much",

That is " waaay " beyond dialect" that I was talking about.

Tengamos que compartir la casa???:speechles

I understand what you say about " proper verb conjugation", in my view, if I say:

" tenemo que compartir la casa" , this is dialect. You classify this as " incorrect conjugation, because it should be:

" tenemoss que compartir la casa".

but this is way different from " tengamos que compartir la casa".

In " tenemo que compartir la casa" , I just dropped the " s". The people from the yola did way more than that, they basically butchered the whole verb.


I understand if you classify " tenemo que..." as " incorrect conjugation", because this form of speech is not standarized by the Dominican government, or any Latin American government. Some people feel " stigmatized" if they speak this way, getting scared of being labeled " a porion".

A dialect, in order to be a dialect, it must have some form of consistency, just like a language for a computer program.

The dropping of " s" has rules.

1)masculine plural nouns don't have "s" at the end:

aviones= avione

flores= flore

2) the "s" is eliminated when is in the middle of words:

escuela= ecuela

esperar= eperar

asustado= asutao

the only glitch that i've found within the dialect is the "s" in the plural femenine ,ex:

Las Vegas= La Vega

This changes the meaning, so there is no choice but to keep the "s" in the femenine plural definite article:

Las Vegas= Las Vega.

The Speaker of this type of Dominican dialect, keeps this rules ( there are many others) in his head.

I can see the government accepting " tenemo que compartir" as a dialect, that you can use in writing, then people wouldn't be " embarrassed" of being label as " a porion" just for not adding that " s" where it belongs.

but there is no way in hell, that the government will accept " tengamos que..." as a dialect. That's just plain " porionez".

I know this is just my opinion, but what I'm trying to say is, that we cannot mix apples with oranges here.

You won't here someone like Freddy Veras Goyco saying stuff like " ellos poder"
You will here him say " el tipo t'asutao", but this is not classified as porionez in my book.


Are you sure that those people from the yola were Dominicans? because damn!

 

[Marianopolita]

Thanks for a better post...

Asopao,


Thanks for taking the time to respond back with a clarifying post. Your first response in my opinion really did not reflect a concise thought pattern but rather a 'knee jerk' reaction. It never makes for a good dialogue or exchange of posts.

In your opinion, my examples may be extreme but keep in mind they are from responses in the newspaper last week and only a few articles. These were Dominicans commenting on newspaper articles. I could have easily posted more since there are so many. As well, those people in the documentary were Dominican (cien por ciento) Why it did not surprise me is because I expected that. Look at the social class. People who venture out on a yola will be people in a low income bracket and usually people in this bracket (not all) are less educated, more rural and with that comes a lower education level reflected in their speech.

My exposure to the language is very vast, it has to be as you know therefore, I have heard and seen written Spanish at a very high level and the extreme opposite which is the very basic and poor by adults. This is principally due to education and in a place like the DR where the education system is not of the best standard/ quality it has a direct impact on these sociolinguistic aspects which clearly reflect Spanish spoken and heard in the DR.

I completely understand your point about the way a 'dialectal' form of Spanish is spoken. The only point I would say differently is instead of saying a dialect has rules, I would say it has a standard. Those standards that you outlined, where to drop the /s/ etc. is normal and to a certain extent many speakers have dialectal patterns in their speech and use them to a higher or lesser disagree depending on the nature of the conversation, the social circle etc. One aspect to keep in mind though in the world of language and linguistic studies dialects are not regarded very highly as a form of speech. However, that's a different discussion altogether.

You see we are on the same page. I agree with you 'tengamos que compartir la casa' which was an example from the documentary is not acceptable. That's why I made sure I posted it. Some may think it's correct (those who are learning Spanish). 'Tenemos' (or 'tenemo' as you said) is the correct way and the only form in that particular phrase context. Foreigners struggle as it is with the subjunctive, a phrase like that does not help, it just further complicates their understanding. Actually, there was a thread in the Spanish forum a few months back about phrases like these that were scene on billboards in the campo in the DR.

Asopao, you seem to have a genuine interest in the speech pattern aspects of Spanish which fall under sociolinguistics studies. The DR is a perfect place to do field work on the speech population. Since you are in disbelief with those examples take a trip to the Cibao, go to a few places and just listen to the way people speak. You will be surprised. The examples are very real. Anyway for your reading pleasure I recommend this book on sociolinguistics:

Title: Spanish in the United States
Sociolinguistic Issues
John J. Bergen
Editor



Regards,


/mplta.

 

[Flaco]

Difference Between Written and Spoken

I have no problem with the spoken spanish of the DR. Being Dominican is not equivalent to being Spanish... it is being Dominican. It is a culture comprised of people from pretty much from every continent on the globe; thus, influencing the accent of the spoken language in the country. So, of course a Dominican speaking spanish is not going to sound like a Spainard speaking spanish when the Dominican picked up an African, French, Asian, etc. accent from their grandma or grandpa.

Now, when we refer to how the spanish language is written I do have a problem. That is an area that needs some serious attention. And, I have the same issue with my son in school. All of our children can speak properly and with a bit of slang, but when it comes to writing a sentence my son spells and writes exactly how he talks and it ticks me off to high heaven. Thus, I have him do extra assignments outside of school in an attempt to correct how he writes before he gets any older. he is 9 right now.

So
...speaking I say GOOD - I love it! Music to my ears.
written language - FAIR if not POOR

 

[Vacara]

Dominican Spanish is good compare to other countries in Latin American or Spain, I have a lot of experience with other Spanish speakers here in the U.S. as i work for the insurance company and as a bilingual Agent i have to deal with Latinos everyday here in Atlanta. Most of the Latinos here come from poor regions of their respective countries so their spanish is poor plus you throw in they slang you will have to get used to it to be able to understand it, at first i had problem understanding Mexican when they spoke (of course i do understand the Mexican Telenovelas perfectly) but when i encounted the really Mexican (the great majority) their Spanish was very different and hard to understand (i'm a full flesh Mexican now ), but my biggest problem understanding another spanish speaker was with a couple from Uruguay, i had to ask them three time to repeat what they said, i even ask them if they speak another languangue other than Spanish, i gave up after a few minutes.

In some region of Panama and Hunduras you will have to take some classes to be able to understand them, i have friends from both countries the one from the major cities speak good Spanish the one from the countryside they speak spanish with a foreign accent.

Dominican Spanish is good and different from other Spanish speaking country. In Chile they don't pronounce the "S" either and it hard for everybody to understand their Spanish and keep in mind that Chile is one of the most richest country in Latin American.

Chilean Spanish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hate to say this but Dominican Spanish is very poor compared to the rest of Latin America, I would dare to say that Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have the two worst Spanish in the continent (Ricans having the worst by far, can't stand how they say "cajo" instead of "carro"). I guess the fact that we are an island, 8 years of American occupation and lot of immigrants from the English speaking Caribbean have done a terrible job on the language. Discrimination and prejudice have kept Haitian french/creole at bay.

I was surprised to realize how many words we've got of west indian (mostly Jamaican) origin; pastelito (beef patty), bugarron (buggaman) etc., also many words from the Americans invaders; pariguayo (party watcher), chapear (chop), greyfu (great fruit) etc.

I don't know how this poster reached the conclusion Uruguayan speak poorly, when in fact is in South America you can find Spanish that resemble the most the one spoken in Spain. Those people use pronouns (vos, vosotros) and some verb forms that are very elegant, speak like that in DR and you'll be seen like an idiot.

 

[Marianopolita]

Vacara...

I must say the last line of your post gave me a good laugh. It could not have been any more succinct. Just a slight correction however, vosotros is not used anywhere in Latin America and many Latinos tend to equate it with vos. They are two separate pronouns and grammatical concepts. Vosotros is the second person plural still used in Spain. For example, (vosotros) vais, (vosotros) habl?is, (vosotros) com?is etc. These forms are completely replaced by uds (ustedes) in Latin America. The pronoun ?vos? is part of el voseo usage or ?vosear? (the verb to describe this type of speech) which replaces the pronoun 't?' with its corresponding forms by those who speak using el voseo. The reverse is true in that it has been completed eradicated in Spain but has remained in many areas of Latin America as an archaic form or vestige of speech.

In some countries such as Argentina and Uruguay it?s the standard. In Costa Rica ?t?? is considered usage by foreigners or non Costa Ricans. In Central America, except Panama the usage is also a show of solidarity. As well, the notion of level of education is an element also in academic circles when analyzing el voseo usage in Latin America.

In general, South America is considered a strong continent in terms of 'good' Spanish as there are many regions where the spoken language is comparable to Spain. This is not hearsay it?s a fact and anyone who knows how to detect and decipher good Spanish from poor Spanish will probably agree. Many countries and regions in South America are prime examples of Spanish close to the standard or comparable to Spain namely Colombia, Peru, parts of Bolivia which was once 'el alto Peru' and Argentina (excluding the phonetic variation of the pronunciation of /ll/). Mexico in general has some good pockets of spoken Spanish.

One general observation that I observed about Ezequiel?s posts about Spanish specifically is they tend to show either extreme pride to point where it overshadows good judgement or lack of experience and exposure regarding Spanish on the whole. There seems to be no in between and other posts indicate the same thought pattern. I have learned quickly via observation to pick my battles accordingly and sometimes silence is the best response.


-Marianopolita

 

[Vacara]

I must say the last line of your post gave me a good laugh. It could not have been any more succinct. Just a slight correction however, vosotros is not used anywhere in Latin America and many Latinos tend to equate it with vos. They are two separate pronouns and grammatical concepts. Vosotros is the second person plural still used in Spain. For example, (vosotros) vais, (vosotros) habl?is, (vosotros) com?is etc. These forms are completely replaced by uds (ustedes) in Latin America. The pronoun ?vos? is part of el voseo usage or ?vosear? (the verb to describe this type of speech) which replaces the pronoun 't?' with its corresponding forms by those who speak using el voseo. The reverse is true in that it has been completed eradicated in Spain but has remained in many areas of Latin America as an archaic form or vestige of speech.

In some countries such as Argentina and Uruguay it?s the standard. In Costa Rica ?t?? is considered usage by foreigners or non Costa Ricans. In Central America, except Panama the usage is also a show of solidarity. As well, the notion of level of education is an element also in academic circles when analyzing el voseo usage in Latin America.

In general, South America is considered a strong continent in terms of 'good' Spanish as there are many regions where the spoken language is comparable to Spain. This is not hearsay it?s a fact and anyone who knows how to detect and decipher good Spanish from poor Spanish will probably agree. Many countries and regions in South America are prime examples of Spanish close to the standard or comparable to Spain namely Colombia, Peru, parts of Bolivia which was once 'el alto Peru' and Argentina (excluding the phonetic variation of the pronunciation of /ll/). Mexico in general has some good pockets of spoken Spanish.

One general observation that I observed about Ezequiel?s posts about Spanish specifically is they tend to show either extreme pride to point where it overshadows good judgement or lack of experience and exposure regarding Spanish on the whole. There seems to be no in between and other posts indicate the same thought pattern. I have learned quickly via observation to pick my battles accordingly and sometimes silence is the best response.


-Marianopolita

One thing I would like to add is how lucky we Dominicans are to have such a poor Spanish, those language lessons came with a heavy price. After Spaniards realized there was no gold in the island they stopped coming here in waves, that's one of the reason our Spanish deteriorated so much.

After they put all their attentions in Mexico, Central and South America in the process of teaching those Indian "good" Spanish they made sure close to a hundreds millions of them would have a christian death.

In all; Spanish might be the most expensive language in history, it cost us 225,000 pounds of gold and 15,000,000 pounds of silver just to say "Somos Latinoamericanos".