Dominican Students at Harvard hoist Reformista Flag and Invoke powers of Balaguer

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Princeton and Columbia (and Harvard if I wanted to)

Hi to all that understand the history of Balaguer truly, and to those at Harvard that KNOW the PRSC is NOT the way to go. And let me tell you, the ones I know at Harvard are not some light weights. I guess this is why Leonel and Harvard teamed up to work on solid development projects as well as with the Earth Institute at Columbia U. Please!!! Don't give me this crap, Amory!

I am an ivy leaguer that knows better. What I have accomplished here with my chancletas and rolos dancing bachata in the ghetto I would have never, ever, ever been able to make a reality within the elistist, racist society that is what Balaguer created and you are trying to win back with your own agenda. I did the opportunity cost and it works that Leonel is the better option.

Yeah, you may wear red at Harvard but it looks more like crimson to me.
Now go study and do a real close analysis to what are welfare policy, asymmetrical information, and moral hazard.

PEACE
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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deelt said:
I am an ivy leaguer that knows better. What I have accomplished here with my chancletas and rolos dancing bachata in the ghetto I would have never, ever, ever been able to make a reality within the elistist, racist society that is what Balaguer created and you are trying to win back with your own agenda. I did the opportunity cost and it works that Leonel is the better option.
PEACE

But....Balaguer is not running so I just dont see the point in bringing him up. Why not discuss the different candidates that ARE running?
And BTW, some of those people that started off with Balaguer are the brains and the pockets behind Leonel(ie. Guaroa Liranzo). So in the end, if you dont like Balaguer politics, dont get your hopes up.

I am sorry, but I do remember lots of corruption, at a very different level, during Leonel too. As a matter of fact I remember people where pretty eager to get him out of power. See, here's how it works in your country, Dominicans never, EVER, vote in favour of a candidate but rather against a candidate. Most of the people that voted for Leonel are voting to get the hipster out of office just like mopst of the people voted for Hipolito to get the PLD out of office 4 years ago.

Harvard is very far away from the DR. From your posts, it is very obvious neither of you knows crap of what is going on here and who stands for what. One of you is voting for mom and dad's party candidate and the other is voting for Leonel because the guy can browse the internet!!
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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On Balaguer...cool you have a point. The U of Chicago researchers were behind the concepts that PRSC put in place to enter the Golden Years in the 90s. On Leonel, the biggest criticism is that he followed the Washington Consensus too closely by privatizing and liberating markets, and as a result ignored the rural populous that in turn was eager to vote him out. He PAID DOWN on the debt, he modernized SDO, paid gov't workers an effective wage to deter corruption, among other things. I am not saying he was perfect, but now hopefully he has learned from his mistakes. Manage gov't online, what a concept, it's called knowledge management and empowering the people. Yes I am for it.

Hipolito does not even understand the concept of restricted fiscal policy let alone rule of law or fair governance or freedom of speech. The fact is that DR had NO BUSINESS taking on the Baninter debt. 95% of the money was paid to 80 people. Increased gov't hiring 10 fold among other remnants of PRSC rule.

While I may not be able to live in DR now but I don't have to live there to realize what the effect price inflation in DR has on the Dominican diaspora. Dominicans abroad sent 2 billion annually in remittances. We are the backbone of the country (regardless who is in power) and live (in the states) on average on $11,065 per capita (2000 data). Therefore at minimum we have the creating the power to influence dominican politics significantly.

Yeah Leonel may know how to surf the internet but he can represent the country better and start to pursue integral issues that relate to the building of credible and stable institutions. These are really foreign concepts in DR in the truest sense of the word. AND that is clear that during his time in office things worked. Sami give me a little credit please. Let my gray hear speak a bit. I also work very very hard to improve the quality of life of poor dominicans in stead of going private and making a lot of money. I have made life choices because of the experiences that have made me who I am today.
I am a survivor.

Love to stay and chat some more but can only afford to take the bus out of state. Have a great weekend.

PEACE

samiam said:
But....Balaguer is not running so I just dont see the point in bringing him up. Why not discuss the different candidates that ARE running?
And BTW, some of those people that started off with Balaguer are the brains and the pockets behind Leonel(ie. Guaroa Liranzo). So in the end, if you dont like Balaguer politics, dont get your hopes up.

I am sorry, but I do remember lots of corruption, at a very different level, during Leonel too. As a matter of fact I remember people where pretty eager to get him out of power. See, here's how it works in your country, Dominicans never, EVER, vote in favour of a candidate but rather against a candidate. Most of the people that voted for Leonel are voting to get the hipster out of office just like mopst of the people voted for Hipolito to 80 people.






Harvard is very far away from the DR. From your posts, it is very obvious neither of you knows crap of what is going on here and who stands for what. One of you is voting for mom and dad's party candidate and the other is voting for Leonel because the guy can browse the internet!!
 

Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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Amory Blaine said:
People take note: that guy has criticized

>Me
>Narcossis
>Carol Morgan parents and students
>Harvard, Georgetown (for claiming we admit students due to donation: have you not stopped to realize that maybe those that DO make donations tend to have smarter kids just because they have the money to enrich their lives with good schools, camps, etc)
>His wife who is "one of them" according to him
>Balaguer--who admitedly was not a saint, but man who the hell would have done a better job at keeping the country at peace and not falling into the turmoils of Central America, Colombia, etc....
>and the list shall continue... those liberal types hate everything.. i wonder if they are ever happy in their world of incomformity... (sigh)

If you are from Harvard, I'm George Bush. What the hell are you doing and who's paying you to bait this group?
 

simpson Homer

Bronze
Nov 14, 2003
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Harvard who care...?

Because I am in harvard I'm the Best.
Because I am in Harvard I have the best education.

Who care about Harvard just you.

Ok. go and get food at the Super Market and say that you study in Harvard they will give food for free. You for sure dont even know about what's going on in the island.

One thing is what you hear or see, but the Real thing is what people are living in the DR.
Look at Hipolito, he studied some where in US, still is a donkey. Do you think because you are in Harvard you know every thing and that you are the brain?
 
Apr 26, 2002
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My family are traditional Balagueristas (for better or worse). And people do speak fondly of Estrella as a person. However, the writing is on the wall that Hippo and Estrella are a tag-team: whichever of the two gets the most votes in the first round will be backed by the other.

The PPH literally makes me sick to my stomach. The red flag has come down from the old family compound. The purple flag has been raised.

If Peynado or Troncoso were the candidate, things might be different.

BTW, I think this thread is great. Plenty of facts mixed with logical but opposed philosophies, and not much personal attack. I think we can leave it up to people's own reasoning skills whether purported credentials are true or not, and whether or not they mean anything. Let's hope the thread doesn't attract the attention of the thread-busters!
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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deelt said:
On Leonel, the biggest criticism is that he followed the Washington Consensus too closely by privatizing and liberating markets, and as a result ignored the rural populous that in turn was eager to vote him out. He PAID DOWN on the debt, he modernized SDO, paid gov't workers an effective wage to deter corruption, among other things. I am not saying he was perfect, but now hopefully he has learned from his mistakes. Manage gov't online, what a concept, it's called knowledge management and empowering the people. Yes I am for it.

Hipolito does not even understand the concept of restricted fiscal policy let alone rule of law or fair governance or freedom of speech. The fact is that DR had NO BUSINESS taking on the Baninter debt. 95% of the money was paid to 80 people. Increased gov't hiring 10 fold among other remnants of PRSC rule.

On Leonel, I'll give you my impression. He is an errand boy for a very powerful little group of empresarios. He is strung on his economic doctrine and in a world that is starting to question the benefits of globalization, I think going back to Leonel would not necessarily mean going back to progress. I agree he 'changed' the government structure and made several things more efficient. Atleast I saw my tax pesos at work. But they stole and they where as corrupt as any. And I dont know if I want to see Ramoncito Baez and the Pelleranos back in business. Remember why they voted the PLD out of power back in 2000? Because no one wanted them around, everyone thought they where the worst gov't we'd had. The Titanic it was called, because they sunk on their maiden voyage. And everyone thought Hipolito was the answer. Fools!!
On the Hipster, the guy is in my opinion far more astute and coniving than most people gave him credit for. But I dont know why Dominicans are surprised he turned out to be so bad. If one party has remained consistent in its politics and its policies once in power its the PRD. And the PRD are all about populism and cheap socialism. Their levels of corruption are off the scale and every government they have ends up in didsaster sooner or later. This government wont be any different wether it ends august 16 2004 or august 16, 2010. (yes, there is already talk of adding 2 more years to the term in case they win again).

Oh well, I guess its time to keep on trucking. Good luck. Laterz.
Time in the DR: :classic: 4:20.
 
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Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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Pure Satire

Porfio_Rubirosa said:
My family are traditional Balagueristas (for better or worse). And people do speak fondly of Estrella as a person. However, the writing is on the wall that Hippo and Estrella are a tag-team: whichever of the two gets the most votes in the first round will be backed by the other.

The PPH literally makes me sick to my stomach. The red flag has come down from the old family compound. The purple flag has been raised.

If Peynado or Troncoso were the candidate, things might be different.

BTW, I think this thread is great. Plenty of facts mixed with logical but opposed philosophies, and not much personal attack. I think we can leave it up to people's own reasoning skills whether purported credentials are true or not, and whether or not they mean anything. Let's hope the thread doesn't attract the attention of the thread-busters!

If this guy is from Harvard, the Ivy League is in deep ****. I've known intelligent conservatives, and this guy couldn't get into Harvard if his Daddy bought the place. Don't encourage him with compliments. He's probaby a 16 year old playing with his Dad's computer.
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
592
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Porfio_Rubirosa said:
If Peynado or Troncoso were the candidate, things might be different.

QUOTE]

If Peynado where candidate we'd be in deep sh!t because the guy is sick and would have been copunted out ages ago.
If Morales Troncoso where candidate, we'd be bored to death. Carlos Morales should have pacted with Eduardo and taken control of the party.
 

Narcosis

New member
Dec 18, 2003
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Comparing the worst of evils

Hipolito Mejia and the PPH was/is the worst thing that could happen to our country.

Take H. Mejia, first of all what does this jack-*** stand for? Does he truely represent a socialist doctrine? NO of course not, he is more right-wing than any PRSC member, he has used the PRD "first the people" crap for political gain. These are the worst type of polititians, those that "play the game" of politics and really have no concrete views on issues.. All that matters is what is best for the party.

The bottom line gameplan for the PRD is to have the "largest party" as if this label gives them the political right to do whatever they need to do to keep in power their own. All the time they will remind you they are simply following the rules of democratic engagement. This includes of course, controlling the senate as well as the Presidential Palace.

Hipolito and all the PPH and PRD hide behind the charismatic figure of the Haitian Pena Gomez, how hipocritical of him, Hipolito could not be more racist, as we all saw on CNN calling a cameraman a little monkey. The whole plan behind that party is to create false expectations onto the poor of the island inciting them to revolt againts the oppressors that are the private sector of business and land owners, desperately trying to create a false division among the poor and the wealthy at the same time eliminating the middle-class.

What type of future do we have under people that wave the flag of creating one big fat ugly party with internal feuding rivalies mimicking battling street gangs fighting over the right to sell crack on a given street corner, always looking to enroll more and more "lost poor souls" boo hoo, even looking towards the vast wasteland of political opportunity that our neighbor to the West holds.

PRD may you forever be gone!

Viva Balaguer!
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Liberalism, socialism, conservatism, globalism. Have any of you ever been to the DR?

None of these concepts are anything more than labels in DR politics. Thus you can have a PRSC (purported rightist) and PRD (purportedly socialist) alliance. Balaguer was not a "conservative". He was a statist and a populist. Hell, everyone's a populist - that's what DR politics are all about.

Read the PRD platform, or read Hippo's inaugural address. Then read the old Soviet constitution. It's all great stuff. It's also all completely meaningless in practice.

You have to learn to crawl before you can run. In the DR, it's not about whether your government is corrupt. Of course, they are all. It's about how much you steal, how much you leave for the people, and whether you and your cronies can govern at all. In Hippo's case, it's "all for us", "nothing for them", without any real effort or ability to govern.

When our per capital GDP hits $8,000 like Costa Rica's or Mexico's, we can start thinking about globalism, liberalism and conservatism.

BTW, don't write any of this on your exams. You'll get an "F". Such a simple reality does nothing for college professors (or for opinionated students from isolated economic classes).
 

Narcosis

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Dec 18, 2003
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Porfirio:

I agree with your opinion that all parties have their fair quota of corruption, the difference is like comparing "Manos de Piedra Duran" and M. Jordan. One basically spent all his money on cars and jewlery and parties and the other invested wisley and it keeps growing.

If those that pass through the palace at least leave important foundations for growth and not just to "feed" the masses of lazy party members looking to sit on the porch and drink beer toasting the party that finally gave "power" back to the people!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,522
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Here is a Quick solution to many of the DR's problems!!

Since the most obvious and biggest and widespread problem in the DR is POVERTY, then here is a quick solution that will fit in with the American Free Trade crap that is being accepted in most countries around the world.

OPEN THE US-DOMINICAN MIGRATION BORDER.
You heard what the IMF (51% owned by U.S. Treasury Dept.) told the DR when the Central Bank was thinking of taking the peso off floating, they said "the DR has to commit to free trade both in good times and in bad times". This is not a direct quote but a summary of what they basically said. Well, since the DR is following this "globalization, deregulation, free trade bolony" lets have some real freedom in the mix. Let dominicans and Americans choose, based on the market forces of each nation, where they want to live. Oh, that the bulk of poor dominicans will flow out of the DR and into the U.S! Too bad, we must embrace free trade in good times as well as in bad ones, and since business rules is the new American Government motto to the rest of the world, well lets let market conditions rule over the migration pattern of humanity. No visas required, no working permits, no nothing, just pure FREE TRADE.
 

Lambada

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Mar 4, 2004
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www.ginniebedggood.com
Porfio,

I am SO glad you said that. I have long thought that Dominican definitions of socialism, conservatism etc did not fit with mine. Plus that political parties here are relatively unimportant, it is the person (leader) not the party which counts. Is this true? If it is, how can consistent party platforms be developed? Have they ALL moved to the centre? Or are they all about number one?
It is a good thread, the secret must be to start it in living & thread busters don't notice!
 

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
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It will be an intellectual fight!

Sami
I think Leonel, like Andrew Carnegie, is an intelligent man that has surrounded himself with great thinkers. The intentions of these thinkers is what is
questionable. In DR politics that is always the case. You cannot
control everything that is done. This is the continued risk he takes.
Thanks for at least acknowledging an increase in efficiency. This is a great
start. Again that is the basis of increased int'l trust and its benefits.
We have met with Leonel. I will frank to say I will support him today.
But we are also in a position to reclaim and push for changes. That is the
beauty and power behind of dual citizenship with a complete
altruistic agenda. Here we take care of our own. We have stable jobs,
good money, a good future, and no hidden agenda other than wanting the
quality of life of nearly 1 million dominicans to improve in the US because
of the pressure we feel from DR to sacrifice and then still see no improvement.
That to us is not longer an option. It is no longer acceptable. And we will
fight to improve and create positive change whether DR wants it or not.
The nurishment of the capable brain power growing within poor
US Dominican communities is just a matter of time. We are becoming the educated and professional thinkers that DR did not allow us to be.
According to the most recent reports, 65% of Dominicans Us-born are in
college. The mess we see in DR and the Dominican -on- Dominican exploitation has to STOP and we will be the driving force to make it happen. Sit down and just watch us.


samiam said:
On Leonel, I'll give you my impression. He is an errand boy for a very powerful little group of empresarios. He is strung on his economic doctrine and in a world that is starting to question the benefits of globalization, I think going back to Leonel would not necessarily mean going back to progress. I agree he 'changed' the government structure and made several things more efficient. Atleast I saw my tax pesos at work. But they stole and they where as corrupt as any. And I dont know if I want to see Ramoncito Baez and the Pelleranos back in business. Remember why they voted the PLD out of power back in 2000? Because no one wanted them around, everyone thought they where the worst gov't we'd had. The Titanic it was called, because they sunk on their maiden voyage. And everyone thought Hipolito was the answer. Fools!!
On the Hipster, the guy is in my opinion far more astute and coniving than most people gave him credit for. But I dont know why Dominicans are surprised he turned out to be so bad. If one party has remained consistent in its politics and its policies once in power its the PRD. And the PRD are all about populism and cheap socialism. Their levels of corruption are off the scale and every government they have ends up in didsaster sooner or later. This government wont be any different wether it ends august 16 2004 or august 16, 2010. (yes, there is already talk of adding 2 more years to the term in case they win again).

Oh well, I guess its time to keep on trucking. Good luck. Laterz.
Time in the DR: :classic: 4:20.
 

Tom F.

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
706
95
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Great thread. I am a populist and love it when the elitist publically show us their true colors. Monarchies are on the decline and Bush keeps talking about building democracies. I thought he should of started in Kuwait and than Saudi Arabia as far as the Middle East. The Dominican governments' place in the cold war is a sad one. Juan Bosch never had a chance and most say Guzman gave it a decent shot. Leonel did make some institutional changes for the good but were short lived. His last year, most knew he would probably be voted out and went back to business as usual. The DR will have to be on the right side in the fight against terrorism much like they did during the Cold War. No need to build democracy in Latin America when when there are bigger problems. I think the elitists' main concerns are finding good cheap domestic work, and not having too much contact with those sin clase. They should all prepare to go live in Miami with the Cubans someday.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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I know it doesn't matter about the "what if" questions that arises from time to time

but I must say that the killing of President Kennedy in the 1960s cost the DR dearly. Kennedy was very sympathetic to the DR, with ample grants. In fact, in the 1960s, the DR was the biggest recipient of U.S. Aid (today it's Israel), but of course, Kennedy gets fatally shot and before you know, the U.S. abandoned the DR. I think the samething is bound to happen in Iraq once Kerry wins the U.S. elections. The exact same thing. All of this leads me to question my self this important question. What if Kennedy was not killed? Would that had made the Dominican Economy and political culture and future much more efficient? Would the DR be where it is today, worst than it is today, or better? I just wonder.

Now, my dominican political view. I think Leonel is going to win the next elections and I am pro-Leonel 100%. I like his way of thinking, very industrial oriented and forward looking. Oh sure, there are going to be some folks that will be within his party and are going to be much more corrupt than the devil himself, but that is when you know that we got a real democracy. Only in democracies do MULTIPLE people have a chance of being corrupt in government rather than ONE person like in Totalitarian or Dictatorial regimes.

I don't agree 100% with one of the posters when he/she posted dominican-americans are becoming the professional minds that the DR did not allow them to be. Though I get your point, I don't agree with the wordings. It is justifiable to say that many kids in the DR have the opportunity to get a free education all the way through college. Of course, not all of the kids due to economic constraints, but many. Unfortunately, way too many drop out before they even finish high school. So was it the DR that did not allow them to be the professionals of the future or was it something else? Maybe the thought of getting in a yola or buying a visa and going to "rich" New York sounds more promising that studying studying and more studying. Or maybe, hoping to be spotted by baseball scouts is more appealing. Though I clearly understand your statement and what you ment, I don't think the DR prevents anyone from acheiving success. Sure, there are economic problems that could cause inequalities in distribution of free education across the country, but those that are lucky enough to get free education are not making the most of it. That is where it all lies.

I do think that Dominican-Americans are going to be a big influence in Dominican politics.The only problem that I see with this phenomenon is that way too many Dominican-Americans will influence the DR with a strong American way of doing things. Such push could eventually lead the DR to give up being a free independent nation and become a state of the U.S. Such action would be an insult to all the men and women that shed blood so that dominicans could have somewhere in the planet to always call home. The dominican elites would certainly hate anything of that nature because it will take away much of their powers. It's something akin to asking the U.S. to withdraw all of their military bases that are in non-American owned lands. It would be detrimental to the power of the U.S. But I think that Dominican-Americans should try to influence the country in many ways. Maybe, take away the "welfare mentality" of the everyday people just waiting for the government to do something for them and instead give people the motivation to actually go out there and try to make it, expecting nothing from nobody but themselves. For dominicans to stop dreaming about New York or Puerto Rico and begin acting on their lives in the country that was kind enough to allow them to live freely.

I disagree with Tom F.'s view on democracies spreading. I don't think that Democracy should be forced upon other nations, that is a very undemocratic manner of doing things. I would like to see countries with different types of regime to have a resurgence of people asking for democratic liberties, like what's happening in Iran, not imposing it to them by force. Most of the people that support democracy are people that only know such form of government. Few supporters of democracy have actually lived in a non-democratic country. Just how you think that democracy is the best thing in the world and you see all the good in democracies and the bad in other regimes, so do the people that live under other regimes as well see other countries with different political structure. We ought to understand how each political system works and try to see if maybe democracy could be much more positive than the other form of government. Look what has been happening in Russia. People there are now starving en masses (something not seen in Communist Russia), many children are no longer attending school because they have to sell things to help the family survive, old russian women are forced to sell their last bit of clothing for survival. In the other hand, there are some russians that have departed from the modest lifestyle that all Russians shared during Communism and have moved into extremely lavish mansions and are spending money by the boatload on any given day. On the streets of Moscow you see people on shoes about to lose their threads while others whisk by on lavish Mercedes sedan. The question here is whether democracy was kinder to the Russians than Communism. Sure, the Oligarchs would say yeah, but look at the other 99% of the population. Hopefully you now see why I disagree with you or partially disagree with you on this issue, though I do see your point.
 

Tom F.

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
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I agree 100% and was writing that in sarcisim. I teach that no country in the world is a democracy, but we would like to see democratic ideals developed as much as possible. When I look at Latin America, Venezuela and Brazil unfortunately must watch out with the Republicans in office in the US. The DR will kiss up enough to keep their nose above water and may someday have to be bailed out like other have had to be. I am with the Profesor on earlier posts (other threads) that the IMF and World Bank are the main culprits. However you define the rise in globalism, it will maintain the status quo where the working class earning capacity will decline. Governments will be even less responsive to the needs of the majority and cater to those at the top. Because of the level of corruption in the DR, those 20 families Roberto Cassa teaches about, will still determine how wealth is distributed in the Dominican economy, not an elected populist government. I will continue to ponder this for years to come. I appreciate what everyone has put into this thread. It is one of the few really educational threads for me.