DR1ers and their Politics

Your political affiliation is....

  • Liberal

    Votes: 18 28.6%
  • Moderate (Liberal slant)

    Votes: 12 19.0%
  • Moderate (Conservative slant)

    Votes: 19 30.2%
  • Conservative

    Votes: 11 17.5%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    63

jrzyguy

Bronze
May 5, 2004
1,832
22
0
definitely a liberal here...however i am not blinded by party lines. For instance...i vehemently oppose the war in Iraq...but DO support what is going on in afghanistan.

I DO think there are good republicans (bill weld, john mcain etc)....but i believe bush/cheney to be the REAL axis of evil.

I am socialy progressive, (pro choice--not pro abortion, pro stem cell research, equal rights--not special rights, separation of church and state etc)...then i am fiscaly conservative (bill clinton gave us the biggest surplus ever...GW squandered that in less than a year). I dont believe in huge tax breaks for the top 10% and huge corporations. and i dont believe in trickle down economics.

what i dont like is how partison BOTH sides have become here in the US.

Bottom line...id rather have clinton boffing some intern...rather than Dubbya F'ing the entire nation and world over.

just my few pesos
 

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
Bottom line...id rather have clinton boffing some intern...rather than Dubbya F'ing the entire nation and world over.

just my few pesos

Same here. Make love and money, not war! Can we re-unite the world again with the old 60's slogan? A little updated with the money and cigar thing? Make love, smoke cigars, drink wine or port, make money, be kind to your neighbor and kids, screw war? Or is this just too simplistic :laugh:
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
1,416
40
0
Would a public execution of 10 or 15 corrupt governmental leaders (of any flavor) here in the DR, end corruption in Dominican government? Would publicly executing the top 50 officials in Dubya's government (including other parties' senior leaders in Congress) and withdrawing all U.S. troops stationed in foreign countries, end terrorism worldwide?

I don't know, but I think it would be a good start for everyone concerned.
 

something_of_the_night

Has left the building...
Feb 7, 2006
993
0
0
Would a public execution of 10 or 15 corrupt governmental leaders (of any flavor) here in the DR, end corruption in Dominican government? Would publicly executing the top 50 officials in Dubya's government (including other parties' senior leaders in Congress) and withdrawing all U.S. troops stationed in foreign countries, end terrorism worldwide?

I don't know, but I think it would be a good start for everyone concerned.

But, but, aren't you the libertarian? You said so on posts 5 and 7.
 

eztxb

New member
Jul 17, 2006
41
0
0
amen right there with you

definitely a liberal here...however i am not blinded by party lines. For instance...i vehemently oppose the war in Iraq...but DO support what is going on in afghanistan.

I DO think there are good republicans (bill weld, john mcain etc)....but i believe bush/cheney to be the REAL axis of evil.

I am socialy progressive, (pro choice--not pro abortion, pro stem cell research, equal rights--not special rights, separation of church and state etc)...then i am fiscaly conservative (bill clinton gave us the biggest surplus ever...GW squandered that in less than a year). I dont believe in huge tax breaks for the top 10% and huge corporations. and i dont believe in trickle down economics.

what i dont like is how partison BOTH sides have become here in the US.

Bottom line...id rather have clinton boffing some intern...rather than Dubbya F'ing the entire nation and world over.

just my few pesos

i could not have said anything better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
1,416
40
0
something of the night, it's part of the plan for us Anarchist-Libertarians.

It's OK now, I took my meds. I love Leonel. I love Amable. I love that skunk-striped reformista from Santiago who keeps bad-mouthing Martin Luther and his campaign against the violent Cathiolic Church. I love Dubya. I can hardly wait for the love-in when Leonel speaks at the U.N. Now what were we talking about - concubines? Or Shakira?
 

something_of_the_night

Has left the building...
Feb 7, 2006
993
0
0
something of the night, it's part of the plan for us Anarchist-Libertarians.

It's OK now, I took my meds. I love Leonel. I love Amable. I love that skunk-striped reformista from Santiago who keeps bad-mouthing Martin Luther and his campaign against the violent Cathiolic Church. I love Dubya. I can hardly wait for the love-in when Leonel speaks at the U.N. Now what were we talking about - concubines? Or Shakira?

Now we're talking, Carlos: Shakira/concubine

By the way, is there a political category for those of us who believe all the leaders past and present were/are crooks? Clinton, 41, 43, Bosch, Blair, Schmidt, Sandino, even MLK. Ghandi being the only possible exception.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,209
113
Would a public execution of 10 or 15 corrupt governmental leaders (of any flavor) here in the DR, end corruption in Dominican government?

I don't know, but I think it would be a good start for everyone concerned.
Personally, I doubt corruption would end even if all current corrupt governmental leaders (that's almost all of them :surprised ) were to be executed out of existence.

One has to understand the issues developing nation-states face regarding their own existence and ability to survive. For this we need to be clear on what exactly is a nation-state:

What exactly is a nation?

Basically, a nation is a population with a certain sense of self, a commonality of attitudes and ideas (incl. common language) that provides a psychological attachment and sense of belonging that creates a deeply shared sense of fundamental identification.

What exactly is a state?

Basically, a territorially bound sovereign entity governed by a central authority whose leaders claim to represent all personas within its territory and to have the monopoly over the use of force (ie. military).

What exactly is a nation-state?

It's the overlap of a nation and a state.

The elements of a nation-state includes:
1. Sovereignty on an international scale
2. Authority over its subjects and territory
3. Legitimacy which is the legal and psychological right to govern
4. Control which is exercised through the monopoly over the use of force.

Developing nation-states (DR included) do not fulfill all the elements that are needed to be an effective nation-state. For example, the country has sovereignty but the country is still subject to alien institutions such as the OAS, IMF, World Bank, etc which often times undermines the sovereignty of the country and places the authority of the state in a position of powerlessness whenever these foreign institutions demand something from the DR.

The country has authority, but such authority is many times ignored and even challenged by various members of Dominican society.

The country has legitimacy, however the legitimacy is not complete because in order for there to be legitimacy there needs to be a certain set of accepted rules and regulations which puts the authority of the state (ie. government) to solve the problems that are present. The DR is a country where the official rules and regulations are often ignored by everyone, even top level officials at times, thus weakening the legitimacy the state has over its territory and people.

And the country has control, however such control is being challenged by the presence of well armed gangs taking control by force of certain sections of cities and population. Additionally, the widespread use of private guards with the inclination towards using force to enforce private interests (whether its protecting a residence or enforcing an eviction of illegal squatters on private land, etc). Also, the widespread growing perception that people must take the law unto their own hands challenges the control of the government as well.

Of those four elements, the key one is legitimacy.

No legitimacy leads to no security of government which leads to no accepted rules which leads to corruption.

In other words, no legitimacy means the government is not able to offer security. That inability causes people to either hire private security or take the matters onto their own hands. Such actions leads to an unacceptance of established rules and regulations and when this happens, the only way to get things done is through kick backs and special favors, or corruption.

Thus, in order for corruption to end we need not kill the politicians. They are not the main problem in this. In order to destroy corruption, we need to increase the level of legitimacy of the Dominican government. Such thing can only be done if people begin to put faith in the state and actually follow the rules and regulations established. Such action can be obtained once all members of the society have the best interest of the nation and state at hand, however such interests can be developed through an emotional appeal to the fundamental expression of the nation. It serves as a means for obtaining legitimacy, often to the exclusion of some other group.

All these factors exist in developed countries, however in developed nations the state is strong and present in all aspects of society. In other words, the state has sufficient control over its population to ensure its legitimacy is maintained. In developing countries, the state often is weaker, often only being present in the cities (in the wealthier parts of the cities) and almost completely absent in the poorest areas and in the countryside. (The presence of the state is the presence of law abidding law enforcers and/or military personnel willing to enforce the law at all times). Such lack of control over its population leads the population to basically act whatever way it feels like, the population takes the laws onto its own hands, has a distrust of authorities, and does not feels commited towards the authorities. Such actions leads to a decrease in legitimacy and the only way to get things done quickly in a place where legitimacy is weak is by circumventing the established rules and regulation, in other words corruption.

-NALs
 

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
Thus, in order for corruption to end we need not kill the politicians. They are not the main problem in this. In order to destroy corruption, we need to increase the level of legitimacy of the Dominican government.

Wait a minute here. You are asking me to buy that giving a bad bunch more power will make everything better????. The politicians are not the main problem??????

I undestand your debate, I just don't know how anyone in their right mind will give 'more legitimacy' to a corrupt bunch, in order to create better conditions ma?ana.... No, please don't answer me.... I don't want another lecture. In other countries, these fellows would be booted out on their asses.

The people have no power and have been conditioned to have no power. The politicians happily take advantage or that and ensure that the people remain powerless. Yes, it is the politicians' fault - or the Government's fault that the people that they're leading, are impoverished in their ability to make changes to their own circumstances. I want to use very bad language. Give the people the access to education and the ability to make use of it, and these politicians will not last 5 minutes in an educated and aware community!

Geez, I had such a good day! Wait, I'm going to keep having a good day .... I'm imagining Nals in a discourse with Hobbes, Plato and Aristotle - all three together!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,209
113
Wait a minute here. You are asking me to buy that giving a bad bunch more power will make everything better????. The politicians are not the main problem??????

I undestand your debate, I just don't know how anyone in their right mind will give 'more legitimacy' to a corrupt bunch, in order to create better conditions ma?ana.... No, please don't answer me.... I don't want another lecture. In other countries, these fellows would be booted out on their asses.

The people have no power and have been conditioned to have no power. The politicians happily take advantage or that and ensure that the people remain powerless. Yes, it is the politicians' fault - or the Government's fault that the people that they're leading, are impoverished in their ability to make changes to their own circumstances. I want to use very bad language. Give the people the access to education and the ability to make use of it, and these politicians will not last 5 minutes in an educated and aware community!

Geez, I had such a good day! Wait, I'm going to keep having a good day .... I'm imagining Nals in a discourse with Hobbes, Plato and Aristotle - all three together!
The reason why corruption exist is due to the weakness of the Dominican state. Such weakness exist, in part, because its legal and psychological right to govern simply does not exist.

Sure, plenty of official papers mention that the Dominican government has the sole right to govern over Dominican territory and it's population, however such right is often challenged by weak psychological belief in the right the Dominican state has to govern.

Thus, let's take your post. What would be your suggestion? Eliminate the current set of politicians.

Ok, let's assume that happens. What then? Corruption ends?

Nope! Corruption will continue and the new set of politicians who will take the place of the old one's will find themselves doing the exact samething the current politicians are doing and corruption will continue. Why? Because legitimacy is not completely accepted by everyone in the country at all times.

And let's assume the Dominican government would decide to invest generously on an education system that would mimic the type Russia or Hungary or some other thirdworld country once had. Well then, who can say that corruption will end when the well educated masses of Russia were not able to avert the extremely high level of corruption that swept through Russia once communism fell.

How about the corruption in well educated Argentina? Corruption is still endemic there.

Until legitimacy is not complete within a country, corruption will exist because it makes everything more efficient than it would otherwise be in a state where the lack of legitimacy makes even the simplest tasks an impossibility. That is why corruption exist, it helps expedite a process that would otherwise take too long and this is accomplish through circumventing the laws via corruption.

More power to authorities will not lead to less corruption. However, granting the state the legitimacy it is suppose to have will certainly lead towards eleminating as much corruption as possible. Everyone on this site says if the laws were followed, the DR would be in a better position. Well? That is giving the state it's legitimacy.

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,209
113
In fact, few DR1ers would disagree that on paper the DR has everything needed to become a success.

The DR has good sets of laws and regulations, a good constitution that serves the purpose of the country, a good set of everything. On paper, the DR is set to prosper.

What's the problem?

Not a single person is fully following those wonderful rules and regulations that exist on paper. Even the Dominican constitution is not being heeded to in its entirety at all times. Why? Not many people believe in the legitimacy of the Dominican state to effectively govern it's territory.

Such lack of legitimacy in the minds of the people leads to practices within the society which are contrary to what the written rules and regulations says is allowed to be done in the country. When most people in a society does not follows the rules and regulations set forth in such society, people with the economic means to influence will use their economic power to influence whomever in order to get things done as effective and quickly as possible. This "influence" is corruption and it slowly erodes its way unto the highest level of government, private business, and society in general. It all started with a lack of legitimacy in the minds of the people towards their government's ability to rule it's territory.

The interesting thing about this is that once this process is in place, it becomes a redundant circle where people blame everything except the actual cause of such corruption, which is the lack of legitimacy.

Thus, when you drive down autopista Duarte and a police officer flags you down and you ignore him and continue on your way, you are ignoring the state's legitimacy to rule you, the individual within Dominican territory. Your rationale to justify your action would probably be based on the belief that the police will simply be trying to extract a bribe and you will most likely blame the police for being corrupt and use that to develop a distrust of them. You begin to hate the police under such rationale.

In the meantime, the fact that the lack of legitimacy the state has in your mind and in the mind of the police is the underlying reason for why corruption exist. Your ignorance of the authority of the police and the police ignorance of his/her duties as a police officer (ie. not asking for bribe) is all based on the lack of legitimacy the state has in both of your minds.

You blame the police for being corrupt and say "this is why this country is the way it is", the police blames you for not heeding his authority and he says "this is why this country is the way it is", when in fact the reason why the country is the way it is is because both of you ignore the legitimacy of the state.

How can legitimacy be imposed?

It can be developed through an emotional appeal to the fundamental expression of the nation. In other words, a patriotic belief in the nation and the capability of the nation on the part of all members of society will lead to greater legitimacy and lower corruption levels because everyone will be willing to create a better society because they believe their society is worth more than what they current are living in.

In all developed countries, most of its citizens believe their nation is the greatest in the world and all of its citizens work to ensure that it is the greatest in world by giving the state the legitimacy it deserves. That is not the case in all developing countries often due to legacy of colonialism where the local is seen as inferior to the foreign and thus, the local is incapable of being better than anything that is foreign.

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,209
113
Thanks Nals, now you're writing from the heart and not with a textbook in your hand. I'll read what you say and respond.
Actually, the difference between my response to GringoCarlos vs my response to yours was that to GringoCarlos I was responding in a more general manner whereas with you I was being more direct towards connecting the lack of legitimacy within the DR to the presence of corruption.

-NALs
 

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
Now now, don't get slippery here. You placed two responses, one in response to my post, (quoted) and one general (no quote to anyone).

Btw, the family and I will be in your neck of the woods in the next few weeks. Your school is my husband's alma mater and we're attending a happening. Want to have a beer or coffee together?
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
But I understand that I live in a political world. I would prefer a world where logic ruled, hence I am a Libertarian. Minimalize the government. Have it protect the borders, protect freedoms and keep the people safe, but don't coddle them. Everything else that doesn't directly hurt other people should be legal. Don't regulate morality. There are far too many laws created and far too few repealed.

I know that what I have said is simplistic, but can we please at least get closer to this than the current systems of government?

Logic=libertarianism ????? since when.
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
But I understand that I live in a political world. I would prefer a world where logic ruled, hence I am a Libertarian. Minimalize the government. Have it protect the borders, protect freedoms and keep the people safe, but don't coddle them. Everything else that doesn't directly hurt other people should be legal. Don't regulate morality. There are far too many laws created and far too few repealed.

I know that what I have said is simplistic, but can we please at least get closer to this than the current systems of government?
Every great idea is based on a fundamental premise. For Libertarians, the underlying premise for their philosophy is that man is rational.

Unfortunately, that premise is false. Men are not rational. That is why Libertarianism and Objectivism, unfortunately, don't work.
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
1,416
40
0
Statists. (and no, that's not a compliment)

So, if we can't rely on people to do what they should do or want to do, then the only logical solution is a bigger, broader, more codified, government with bigger and broader funding each year. Only if you are a Peleidista, Pereidista, reformista, Communist, Socialist, Republican or Democrat.

Any government's job is NOT to create jobs to get the country out of its mess. Another government job is just another black hole, further sucking the life out of the country and its budget. Government jobs are NOT productive - they do not create more wealth then they spend to do the job.

If the Dominican government really wants to get out of this mess, take the good Padre's advice for a start, and eliminate the departments he suggested yesterday, as a beginning. So Sr Amable really needs a helicopter to fly around the Republica passing out money to the municipalities, so they can do their jobs locally. What balls, man!

Get rid of him and his cronies, and the whole Municipal League. Why do we need a middleman to receive and then pass out the money, unless its' sole purpose is to extract 10% or so in the process. For a friggin helicopter?

Sorry, Sr Cibernetica / Don Export, (I know that you read DR1 constantly) but if the Dominican government really wants to grow Exports, then get rid of your department too. The only thing CEDOPEX does it to get in the way and to extract fees from folks wanting to actually get someone in another country to send their wealth here to La Republica for the products we want to send them.

Why?? To keep a huge payroll going, and an empty huacal that could be rented out to someone for real money? The last time I was there, there were exactly 8 people in the entire building, and no, the employees weren't out pounding the pavement to sell my products to another country. Vete co?o.

Same with the police. Get rid of all of them, and use a private security force. If they want something in the street, or commit crimes, or want to serve as some idiot's private security guard instead, fire them and find someone else. Same with the so-called "generals".

Sorry, it's time to take my meds again. And I want to think some more about concubines and Shakira, instead of Leonel and Dubya's messes.