DR's History

[bob saunders]

Lumumba

I read some some your other postings and I have to ask you a question. Have you ever been to Cuba? I have, with my Dominican wife, and not to just resorts. My brother is married to a Cubana. Unemployment is very high. Officially people have jobs, but they do nothing. I asked my wife if she would prefer Cuba to the DR, and she looked at me as if I had 3 heads. She said, " Even poor Dominicans have freedom " Enough said!

 

[Milosos]

I could be wrong

And why would the National Museum display that? That's like asking a government run museum in the U.S. to display items from the Black Panthers and Weather Underground.

And you still haven't addressed any of the facts in the history.

http://www.fpm-mgl.org/dr/2.JPG[/img]

But I assume the lack of response to your insane posts is that most people on this forum realize your post do not rise to the point of having the validity to warrant a reply, you obviously think the US is solely concerned with causing problems for the Republic Dominicana? How can you expect anyone to comment on such childish and preposterous remarks?


I could pick your 6th grade level inaccuracies on Republic Dominicana History apart without looking at any references (Which is what you obviously did) but I again assume most readers on this forum simply disregarded that rant as a simplistic view of event by a simplistic mind with an agenda far from truth.

Do you really believe the USA covers up all history not favorable?

http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/black_panthers/content.html

I have observed many exhibits regarding the Black Panthers, Huey Newton and Bobby Seales, Bill Ayers and other at various times at the Smithsonian, Cal Berkley and other well respected museums. The USA may not be proud of these groups but they do not deny or try to erase their history, in fact they embrace the turbulence and lessons learned by these Revolutionaries in the hopes that the likes of such radicals may not again be necessary

I don’t usually comment on many posts, but your terrible rant blaming the USA for all things evil leads me to believe you have either been denied a VISA to the USA or summarily deported

I fully realize the USA is not all righteous and forthcoming., but to listen to you one would understand the USA is at fault from everything form Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden to the Fall of the Holy Roman Empire and the current situation in the Republic Dominicana to which you ascribe the USA is totally responsible.

I think you will always have freedom in your mind and thoughts, with your apparent use of mind expanding drugs you will have plenty of room to foster such inane thoughts

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Interesting post Lumumba

Lumumba,

I think there is actually some merit to what you wrote in your post. But I think you go overboard in many ways.

Granted, the U.S. did support Trujillo through most of his regime, but so did the majority of Dominicans. You don't seem to realize that. Trujillo was a popular ruler.

It was Trujillo who launched a plan to redistribute land to the Dominican campesinos. It was Trujillo who improved(virtually created) the Dominican Republic's infrastructure. Roads and bridges were constructed to help the rural farmer deliver his produce to market in easier ways. Trujillo expanded public education, medical services, electricity and even running water into the DR's smallest hamlets. Trujillo also brought about security for the common man. Trujillo rapidly gained the support of the masses. He didn't need American support to accomplish all of that.

The toppling of President Juan Bosch was wrong. I don't know if it is fair to lay the blame for the coup entirely on the United States. The Dominicans behind the coup were against Juan Bosch's policies without any encouragement from the Americans. Donald Reid Cabral, who would join the triumphant, called the coup against President Juan Bosch "a disaster", and only agreed to join the new government in order to keep civillian components in it and guide the country to another set of free elections. Which he did.

When the civil war started, it was just that, a civil war. The Constitutionalists were not all communists. But there were definately Communist elements fighting in its ranks. As much as is made about about the majority of Constitutionalists being anti-communits, I think there was a very real threat that Marxist elements within it had every intention of hijacking the constitutionalist cause. Even people within the Constitutionalists ranks were afraid of that. (Communist revolution) I don't believe Juan Bosch was a Marxist. Spanish Republicans faced the same problem during the Spanish Civil War.(Keeping the Communists from taking over completely)

The people that opposed Camanno were afraid of that possibility as well. Not everyone in the Dominican Republic wanted(or wants) to live in a Communist country. Being anti-communist is a legitimate political stance.

I don't know if the majority of Dominicans supporting the Constitutionalists were actually communists. I think most were probably left-wing democrats, social democrats, what have you, but communists, I have my doubts.

When the Dominican Government asked for U.S. military intervention, it could not have been a decision taken lightly. The Loyalists were facing military defeat(perhaps) and they feared what would happen to the country if that occured. Many of the Dominicans I spoke to while in the DR shared the belief that Cammano would have "given the country to Castro." The choice seemed to be between an American intervention or a Communist dictatorship.

I don't know if Cammano was a Communist in 1965. I really don't know. I think perhaps the election of Balaguer to the office of President, in 1966, probably left him disappointed and disillusioned. In 1967, Cammano, who was the Dominican Republic's military attache to London, disappeared. He would emerge years later as a kind of Dominican Che Guevera. And he would die like Che Guevera. ( An invasion that failed to rally the masses, hunted down by the armed forces, captured alive, and then executed.)

If the people who called in American armed forces are just "Yankee puppets", what does that make some of the Constitutionalists, "Communist puppets"?

 

[Drugdog]

Some Dominican Republic history that Lumumba did not post.


The President of the United States
in the name of
The Congress
takes pleasure in presenting the
Medal of Honor

to

WILLIAMS, ERNEST CALVIN

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 2 August 1887, Broadwell, Ill. Accredited to: Illinois. G.O. No.: 289, 27 April 1917. Other Navy award: Navy Cross.

Citation:

In action against hostile forces at San Francisco de Macoris, Dominican Republic, 29 November 1916. With only a dozen men available, 1st Lt. Williams rushed the gate of the fortress. With 8 of his party wounded by rifle fire of the defenders, he pressed on with the 4 remaining men, threw himself against the door just as it was being closed by the Dominicans and forced an entry. Despite a narrow escape from death at the hands of a rifleman, he and his men disposed of the guards and within a few minutes had gained control of the fort and the hundred prisoners confined there.

2 others can be found here: http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/war/11_domin.html

Are there any detailed battle maps of Dominican vs US? While in the Capitol I could not locate a military museum.

Semper Fi
Kevin

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Lumumba,

I think there is actually some merit to what you wrote in your post. But I think you go overboard in many ways.

Granted, the U.S. did support Trujillo through most of his regime, but so did the majority of Dominicans. You don't seem to realize that. Trujillo was a popular ruler.

It was Trujillo who launched a plan to redistribute land to the Dominican campesinos. It was Trujillo who improve(virtually created) the Dominican Republic's infranstructure. Roads and bridges were constructed to help the rural farmer deliever his produce to market in easier ways. Trujillo expanded public education, medical services, electricity and even running water into the DR's smallest hamlets. Trujillo also brought around security for the common man. Trujillo rapidly gained the support of the masses. He didn't need American support to accomplish all of that.

The toppling of President Juan Bosch was wrong. I don't know if it is fair to lay the blame for the coup entirely on the Unitedb States. The Dominicans behind the coup were against Juan Bosch's policies without any encouragement of the United States.

In my humble opinion one of the most balanced responses to the rants of LUMUMBA. His ideology is plainly obvious to all, but I think we should challenge him with ideas and not
insults and personal attacks.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Museums

Some Dominican Republic history that Lumumba did not post.


The President of the United States
in the name of
The Congress
takes pleasure in presenting the
Medal of Honor

to

WILLIAMS, ERNEST CALVIN

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 2 August 1887, Broadwell, Ill. Accredited to: Illinois. G.O. No.: 289, 27 April 1917. Other Navy award: Navy Cross.

Citation:

In action against hostile forces at San Francisco de Macoris, Dominican Republic, 29 November 1916. With only a dozen men available, 1st Lt. Williams rushed the gate of the fortress. With 8 of his party wounded by rifle fire of the defenders, he pressed on with the 4 remaining men, threw himself against the door just as it was being closed by the Dominicans and forced an entry. Despite a narrow escape from death at the hands of a rifleman, he and his men disposed of the guards and within a few minutes had gained control of the fort and the hundred prisoners confined there.

2 others can be found here: http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/war/11_domin.html

Are there any detailed battle maps of Dominican vs US? While in the Capitol I could not locate a military museum.

Semper Fi
Kevin

I don't know if the Dominicans would have any displays honoring American soldiers who were decorated for bravery(not to mention killing of Dominican soldiers who were simply defending their homeland) in the course of an American invasion and brutal occupation of their Nation.

Try Quantico.

 

[Drugdog]

Was not looking at it that way. Wanted to see the layout of the battlefield and descriptions of force movements during the battles. Tried at a few USMC bases but not much on the records of these battles. While in the Capitol in June I did a quick search of museums. Have to go back in a few weeks on business and if the DR has a military museum I would like to tour it.

Kevin

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Kevin,

If you do a search of Amazon.com you will find some books which could help you.

Many of the books detailing the American occupation are out of print, but they can still be purchased online.

Trujillo's military biography details some of the American occupation forces activities.

I was sincere when I mentioned Quantico. They have a history section that might be able to help direct you to a few books.

 

[Drugdog]

Will be in Quantico on November 10th and will see what I can find. Does Santo Domingo have a detailed history museum? The one in Vietnam was amazing to look at as someone from the Evil Empire.

Kevin

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

I read in a tour guide that the Dominican museum of the Modern Man, something like that, had a series of displays that included that American Occupation. It didn't sound like what you were looking for. Objects included a metal chair, nicknamed "The Octopus" that the American Marines used to torture suspected members of the Dominican resistance. Grim stuff.

There were also displays dealing with the Era of Trujillo and an earlier dictatorship, that of Lilis Hereax. I read they once had quite a good collection on display, but I was told that it had been largely stolen over the years and sold to private collectors.

When I was there last winter that part of the Museum was closed.

One of Trujillo's palaces has been restored. I was told that many of the remaining objects from the museum were going to be moved to it. The place is called "El Cerro" and is located in San Cristobal, just a short drive from SD.

I did write about my trip there in the travel section. I really liked San Cristobal.

One last thing.

There was an American warship that was smashed against the rocks of Santo Domingo during the American Occupation(a storm) and the monument to the dead sailors was still there last winter when I visited. The site is on the Malecon. The grandson of the warship captain wrote a book about the disaster of few years ago. Sorry, off the top of my head I can't name the ship.

That might be a good place to start your research.

 

[Mirador]

The Memphis

 

[LUMUMBA]

I read some some your other postings and I have to ask you a question. Have you ever been to Cuba? I have, with my Dominican wife, and not to just resorts. My brother is married to a Cubana. Unemployment is very high. Officially people have jobs, but they do nothing.

I've been there twice. Neither time was I in a "resort," and one of the times I went with a work brigade, spent 3 months there, lived with a Cuban family, and worked five days a week cutting cane. It's the greatest place I've ever been in my life.

I asked my wife if she would prefer Cuba to the DR, and she looked at me as if I had 3 heads. She said, " Even poor Dominicans have freedom " Enough said!

What freedom? What freedoms do Dominicans have that Cubans don't? Freedom to sleep in the street if they're poor? Freedom to die if they can't afford medical treatment? Freedom to be illiterate? There are no homeless people in Cuba. No one starves to death in Cuba. There are no illiterate people in Cuba (outside of the mentally handicapped). Medical care is completely free in Cuba. Education, from the beginning to the university is completely free. Anyone who wants to work in Cuba can. Cuba is an independent nation, free from imperialist domination. The Cuban people determine their own path.

It's funny that you say that.. I'm sure your wife, from her privledged position, wouldn't want to live in a place where everyone is equal.. That's like asking a decadent American doctor if he wants to work at a clinic in Mozambique. Dominicans and Haitians constantly approach the FPM to ask about emigrating to Cuba (especially after they read the books and pamphlets the FPM has put out about what Cuba is really like). And if you didn't know, there are hundreds of Dominicans and Haitians studying for free at college in Cuba. Not to mention "Miracle Mission," which has provided free eye surgery to tens of thousands of poor Latinoamericanos from all over.. and I do me free, they fly for free on Venezuelan planes, get free food and free board in Cuba.. etc.

But I assume the lack of response to your insane posts is that most people on this forum realize your post do not rise to the point of having the validity to warrant a reply, you obviously think the US is solely concerned with causing problems for the Republic Dominicana? How can you expect anyone to comment on such childish and preposterous remarks?

Ahh, more ad homs, with a straw man thrown in! You're full of logical fallacies, eh?

Again, if they're so "childish and preposterous" they should be easy to counter. As of yet, no one has done that, or really even tried to.

I could pick your 6th grade level inaccuracies on Republic Dominicana History apart without looking at any references (Which is what you obviously did) but I again assume most readers on this forum simply disregarded that rant as a simplistic view of event by a simplistic mind with an agenda far from truth.

1. For the third time, I didn't write it. This is indicated by the "from: " at the end of the article.

2. If you can "pick your 6th grade level inaccuracies on Republic Dominicana History apart without looking at any references," then do it. Don't talk about it, be about it.

3. "without looking at any references (Which is what you obviously did)"?? So it's bad for someone to use references when writing or making a statement? Really? Wow, this explains alot! LOL. I guess someone like you, who isn't interested in fact, would say something like this.. I just can't believe you admitted it.

4. "I again assume most readers on this forum simply disregarded that rant as a simplistic view of event by a simplistic mind" This is yet another Argumentum ad hominem! Good job! "This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself." There, I gave you the definition so you can avoid it in the future.

5. "with an agenda far from truth" That makes no sense. Maybe you'd like to rephrase it?

Do you really believe the USA covers up all history not favorable?

Nope, just the stuff that people don't find out about on their own. Have you heard of No Gun Ri? My Lai? Haditha?

I have observed many exhibits regarding the Black Panthers, Huey Newton and Bobby Seales, Bill Ayers and other at various times at the Smithsonian, Cal Berkley and other well respected museums. The USA may not be proud of these groups but they do not deny or try to erase their history, in fact they embrace the turbulence and lessons learned by these Revolutionaries in the hopes that the likes of such radicals may not again be necessary

The Smithsonian?? I've been there plenty of times, never seen a Black Panthers display... got a source?

Cal Berkley is not a government run museum. Berkley is historically a left-leaning town, and the Panthers received support there.

The U.S. government destroyed the Black Panthers with a series of assassinations and imprisonments. That's objective fact. They're still hunting some Panthers, like Assata Shakur, who lives (very happily) in Cuba.

I don?t usually comment on many posts, but your terrible rant blaming the USA for all things evil leads me to believe you have either been denied a VISA to the USA or summarily deported

Nope. I'm a citizen of the U.S.. Been one for years. Check my ip. And I didn't "blame the USA for all things evil".. nice try though.

I fully realize the USA is not all righteous and forthcoming., but to listen to you one would understand the USA is at fault from everything form Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden to the Fall of the Holy Roman Empire and the current situation in the Republic Dominicana to which you ascribe the USA is totally responsible.

Nope. Adam and Eve is a fairy tale, and the Roman Empire was before the U.S. existed.. so again, more logical fallacies. I understand you have trouble dealing in the realm of objective facts, but you should at least try.

The current situation in the DR isn't entirely because of the U.S.. The situation is because of colonialism, neo-colonialism, and imperialism; all of which are aspects of global capitalism. For the workers and farmers of the DR to determine their own path, they need to first break free of the grip of imperialist domination. No serious improvements can occur before that time, and thus, this is the immediate task of the Dominican people. The U.S. is the main imperialist power in the world, and more specifically, is the imperialist power which has dominated the DR economically and politically since its break from Spain.

I think you will always have freedom in your mind and thoughts, with your apparent use of mind expanding drugs you will have plenty of room to foster such inane thoughts

You managed to get one more ad hom in at the end, still without addressing nary a fact! QUE BUENO!

Granted, the U.S. did support Trujillo through most of his regime, but so did the majority of Dominicans. You don't seem to realize that. Trujillo was a popular ruler.

So was, according to books of history, Hitler (and incidentally, U.S. business also supported Hitler for quite a while). Does that make him good? Does that change the objective fact that Hitler was detrimental to the human species?

And how do we know that Trujillo was popular? There were no elections, no plebecites, etc. If he was so popular, he should have ran for office, and allowed opposition parties, right? Just because some older people look back positively at time under Trujillo, doesn't mean anything either. The world in general is worse now, as capitalism has ravaged it for a few decades since then. On top of that, we know that ideas don't come out of thin air, they come from material sources.. so reactionary views aren't suprising coming from people who grew up under a reactionary regime, with reactionary views that it propagated through its media.

Ask the Dominicans (and a handful of Cubans, including Fidel Castro) that planned to leave Cuba by boat and overthrow Trujillo (before there plans were smashed by the reactionary Cuban state of the time) how popular Trujillo was.

It was Trujillo who launched a plan to redistribute land to the Dominican campesinos. It was Trujillo who improved(virtually created) the Dominican Republic's infrastructure. Roads and bridges were constructed to help the rural farmer deliver his produce to market in easier ways. Trujillo expanded public education, medical services, electricity and even running water into the DR's smallest hamlets. Trujillo also brought about security for the common man. Trujillo rapidly gained the support of the masses. He didn't need American support to accomplish all of that.

Of course he did. He needed American support to stay in power. He was a butcher. Everything he did, he did to prevent revolution.. just like Roosevelt in the U.S. with 'the new deal'.. what he did was all forced by popular pressure, and was just enough to keep the masses in check. Nothing he did matches the accomplishments of Cuba under socialism.. not even close..

The toppling of President Juan Bosch was wrong. I don't know if it is fair to lay the blame for the coup entirely on the United States. The Dominicans behind the coup were against Juan Bosch's policies without any encouragement from the Americans. Donald Reid Cabral, who would join the triumphant, called the coup against President Juan Bosch "a disaster", and only agreed to join the new government in order to keep civillian components in it and guide the country to another set of free elections. Which he did.

There was no doubt the coup was engineered by the U.S.. Look through the declassified documents.. It was no different then Pinochet's coup in Chile! Of course, the Dominican capitalists and Trujillo-cronies who stood to loose a little were all for it, and carried out the U.S. bidding.. For the U.S. to remain the colonial power, with the puppet Balaguer in power, was in their interests.

When the civil war started, it was just that, a civil war. The Constitutionalists were not all communists. But there were definately Communist elements fighting in its ranks. As much as is made about about the majority of Constitutionalists being anti-communits, I think there was a very real threat that Marxist elements within it had every intention of hijacking the constitutionalist cause. Even people within the Constitutionalists ranks were afraid of that. (Communist revolution)

Of course there were communists in the Constitutionalists! Communists have always stood on the front lines in battles against imperialism and reactionary dictatorships, have always lead the fight for the rights of workers, farmers, women and national minorities. It was communists who defeated the Nazis in most of Europe!

I don't believe Juan Bosch was a Marxist. Spanish Republicans faced the same problem during the Spanish Civil War.(Keeping the Communists from taking over completely)

Juan Bosch wasn't a Marxist.. at all. He was an anti-Communist. He banned communists after he was elected. Of course, that didn't stop Lyndon Johnson from using the claim that he was a communist to invade. That's all explained in the history I posted.

The people that opposed Camanno were afraid of that possibility as well. Not everyone in the Dominican Republic wanted(or wants) to live in a Communist country. Being anti-communist is a legitimate political stance.

No it isn't. In politics, it's what you're for, not what you're against. Anti-communism is a blanket excuse used to justify imperialist adventures around the world -- just like "the war on terrorism" of today. It was invented by a sector of the capitalist ruling class of the U.S. after WW2 (when the imperialist countries allied with the socialist countries.. remember 'Uncle Joe'??)..

 

[LUMUMBA]

I don't know if the majority of Dominicans supporting the Constitutionalists were actually communists. I think most were probably left-wing democrats, social democrats, what have you, but communists, I have my doubts.

Most of them were probably none of the above. This is like in Cuba.. when the U.S. was attacking it and overloading it with anti-communist propaganda after the immensly popular revolution (telling Cubans that there children would be sent to the USSR, etc.) .. Fidel asked over a million Cubans in a speech: do you like the housing and land redistribution? Everyone screemed yes! Do you like the full employment? Everyone screemed yes! Do you like the free healthcare and education? Everyone screemed yes! Do you like the grass roots democracy? Everyone screemed yes! Well, he said, this is socialism! The crowd exploded in applause.

When the Dominican Government asked for U.S. military intervention, it could not have been a decision taken lightly. The Loyalists were facing military defeat(perhaps) and they feared what would happen to the country if that occured. Many of the Dominicans I spoke to while in the DR shared the belief that Cammano would have "given the country to Castro." The choice seemed to be between an American intervention or a Communist dictatorship.

We must be talking to different Dominicans. Which ones are you talking to? Petit-bourgoies and compradors? The choice was revolution or re-colonization.. and it was decided on the battlefield. But that struggle's not over.

Cuba is immensly popular throughout Latin America & Africa, among the poor and oppressed majority. Into the 90's you had popular socialist revolutions in Grenada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala. Today you have the beginnings of them in Bolivia, Colombia, Peru, etc.

Here, just the other day: Castro receives hero's welcome in Argentina

I don't know if Cammano was a Communist in 1965. I really don't know.

He wasn't. He was the nationalist leader of a bourgeois-democratic revolution (which is what the civil war of 65 was).

I think perhaps the election of Balaguer to the office of President, in 1966, probably left him disappointed and disillusioned.

What election? It was fraudulent as hell. Not only were votes fixed, but the threat of another U.S. invasion if Bosch was elected caused many to abstain or vote for Balaguer.. similar to what happened with the Sandanistas in Nicaragua (when Reagan said, if you vote Sandanista, the Contras will continue killing you; if they loose, we'll give you lots of aid!).

In 1967, Cammano, who was the Dominican Republic's military attache to London, disappeared. He would emerge years later as a kind of Dominican Che Guevera. And he would die like Che Guevera. ( An invasion that failed to rally the masses, hunted down by the armed forces, captured alive, and then executed.)

He didn't fail to rally the masses, he never had a chance. He was on the run from his landing. There were hundreds of soldiers after him before he could even get in position. But remember one thing, and remember it always.. Caamaño, like Che, lives!

If the people who called in American armed forces are just "Yankee puppets", what does that make some of the Constitutionalists, "Communist puppets"?

No, because the people who "called in American armed forces" acted objectively in the interests of the U.S. imperialists. The constitutionalists acted in the interests of the Dominican people. They answered to no one but them.

 

[Mirador]

 

[LUMUMBA]

Great reply... tore my facts to shreds.

 

[Milosos]

I fully realize I am wasting my time

Great reply... tore my facts to shreds.

But as soon as you find a way to post your first "fact," not a scrap from your delusional mind, I will be happy to refute it

I really don't understand you purpose, other than the rants against the USA, it is obvious you have been in some sort of trouble with the US Govt. and are trying in your own way to retaliate for what you consider some wrondoing, but all you have done is establish yourself as some half baked clown who doesnt have a clue or basis in any reality

To try to compare yourself to Castro, Guevara, Seales or any revolutionary provides a terrible disservice to them, it is doubtful you would have been allowed into any of their organizations except to fetch coffee. Your "ideas" have no basis in reality, your "facts" are old tired slogans from days gone by, your "proposals" are pipe dreams, whether you want to call it an "attack" or what it really is, this is simply a description and analysis of your personality and mission; an angry voice screaming for someone to listen and spouting garbage that no one can seem to agree with, not even the most radical anarchist wants to act without a purpose

Any good Revolutionist must set forth an agenda, you have nothing but contempt for others, no plan for yourself. Do you think you can promote change in your country (Wherever that may be today) without a vision, change without hope, change simply for change? You denigrate other countries and people but serve no notice of improvement?

Please tell us exactly what your intentions are and maybe someone will make sense of your crying in the wilderness, as of now you sound just like the poor burnt out man on the corner saying "The end is near"

Go back to the cane fields for a few more years, try and think, read and somehow learn, then maybe you can return and find 1-2 followers

And despite your typical inaccurate "facts," U Cal Berkley is an institution owned and operated by the State of California supplied with US Government Funds making it definitely a US INSTITUTION, but someone would have to have knowledge of Government and politics to understand that. I mean U Cal is so "not" US Government that the first Atomic bomb was primarily developed and funded there and UC Berkley still runs Los Alamos, not much US Government connection???? Your reactionary "skim" knowledge is very apparent, dig deep and learn something other than what you pick up while "expanding" your mind with friends

As for verification, seeing you have a computer (oh oh, another evil US thing, awful gates, Jobs etc) you can do your won Google searches, I am quite satisfied with what I know you will find

 

[Milosos]

Just for fun

"3. "without looking at any references (Which is what you obviously did)"?? So it's bad for someone to use references when writing or making a statement? Really? Wow, this explains alot! LOL. I guess someone like you, who isn't interested in fact, would say something like this.. I just can't believe you admitted it.

Try reading that post as many times as necessary, and maybe you will see how you repeatedly let your anger influence your ability to understand

let me try to break it down, I hope I don't need to use phonetics?

I said Without using any references, alluding to dismissing your "facts" I would need no references, I continued by saying "Which is what you obviously did (Not look at any references)" What is it you can't believe I admitted?

If there is one fact in all of your postings, PLEASE set it forth to save me reading pages of porridge in an attempt to locate one accidental remark you lake that could be validated

If not, I end my one sided conversation with you safe in the knowledge you will soon aggravate people to the point you will be ignored or banished.

Maybe someday you will attain the ability to form valid opinions and establish an audience, until then.....

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Mirador's response to Lumumba

That has to be the funniest response to any post I have ever read on DR1! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't burst out laughing like that in along time. (I know, I know, "Joel, you should reread some of YOUR posts...")

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Response to Lumumba

Where do I begin?

First of all, Trujillo did not modernize the Nation and extend a helping hand to the Dominican campesinos to "keep a lid on revolution." The Dominican masses do not have a tradition of revolution. The Dominican poor have a tradition of acting like sheep. The dynamics, the political upheavals traditionally are carried out by the Dominican elite, not the down trodden masses. If you studied Dominican history, you would understand that.

What Trujillo was doing was two fold. First and foremost, he secured his own power base, the Dominican masses. Second, he modernized his nation. He built it up from the ruins of civil war, American invasion and a brutal occupation.

Trujillo was not an American puppet. He got his start serving in the American controlled Dominican National Guard, but he was always a Dominican nationalist. What Trujillo strived to do was gain full independence from the United States. That is, pay off the national Debt and regain control of the Republic's custom houses, which were controlled by American civil servants. A humiliating situation for the Dominican Republic, and for Trujillo personally. He did just that. He paid off the national debt. For several decades the Dominican Republic didn't even have its own money, Trujillo changed that. In 1947 introducing the Dominican Peso, a gold and silver based currency(and one of the strongest currencies in the world). Before that only the American Dollar was used in the Dominican Republic. Trujillo had always felt this was an infringement of national sovereignty.

By paying off the National debt, he freed the DR from all international obligations. He restored National Independence. Especially from the United States.

Trujillo publically stated as much when he hosted the spectacular (and financially ruinous) "International Fair for the Peace of the Free World".

An excerpt from his 1955 speech:

"I received in 1930 a Republic which lacked some of its essential attributes as a sovereign entity; today I present it to history as a nation without the ties which limit its actions, with full financial autonomy and standing on a basis of equality with the freest nations of the world.

There was delivered to me a people with a weak sense of idenitity, with their territory still undefined, and today I offer to my fellow citizens a country the demarcation of whose frontiers has been completed...

There was entrusted to me a nation pauperized, mortgaged to foreign captial and without resources to international order, and today I show it transformed into an independent economic entity."

The Dominican Republic had never been stronger. The Dominican Republic has never been that strong since.

Trujillo charted his own foreign policy course. Often he would cooperate with the United States because it was in his own interest to do so ( like the joint effort at successfully overthrowing the Guatemalan government of Arbenz). But he always cooperated with the United States on the basis of an equal partnership.

I suspect that if Trujillo had been a Marxist with a red star on his General's cap, you would be overlooking his excesses and cruelties as the price of revolution and progress.

Many of the biographies and books I have read on Trujillo state that if Trujillo had chosen to run in a free and fair election, he probably would have won. The average Dominican had seen his nation transformed in his own lifetime. Trujillo was a brutal dictator, but life for the average campesino before Trujillo was easily much worse(banditry,civil war, political instability, lack of education, health services, infrastructure, etc.). If you take the time to research this, you can see evidence of this for yourself.

The opposition to Trujillo came from the upper classes (your supposed enemies). Trujillo wasn't killed by left wing revolutionaries, he was assassinated from the right.

The Civil War

I still think you are placing too much blame on the United States for what occured in 1965. Did the U.S. have something to do with it? Yes. Of Course. But what the United States did was support Dominicans who opposed a Communist take over (or what they feared were the makings of a Communist take over). Your arguments are far too one sided and extreme. You leave out the the fact that many Dominicans actually feared communist rule. When the Soviet Union, or Fidel Castro support revolution does that make them any different from the United States? They are all outsiders interfering with another country's civil order.

Your other posts are all rather extreme and one sided. I suppose that is the revolutionary in you. However, your kind often get so caught up in your own propaganda, you misread the public mood. Che Guevara did that in Bolivia, and he didn't survive. Francisco Caamano made the same mistake in the DR, and it got him killed. Not all people are interested in violent revolution. Not all of the poor trust communism.

As far as Trujillo's popularity goes, yes, even Hitler was popular. I state that on an earlier thread("The DR needs a steel fisted Ruler"-Debates section). There are Communist leaders like Stalin that were also popular with the masses and who are guilty of terrible crimes as well. Did Stalin do so much to improve the human condition? Do you think Trujillo was really worse than Stalin?

Trujillo didn't have blanket socialism for his people, but he did more for the average Dominican than anyone who came before him. Some people even argue any leader since. I'm not a Trujillista. I do however believe in being honest. Trujillo did accomplish quite a bit for his people. There was an element of misery and suffering along with it, but none the less, the achievements are there.

Most Latin American dictators just terrorize and plunder their nations, and give nothing back. Trujillo gave something back to the Dominicans. A modern country.

 

[drbill]

Good Grief, Charlie Brown

Mr. Lumumba, your accusation that UMASS awarded you a B.S. in economy could constitute slander, perhaps libel with intent... .

If you remain enamored of DR1 and its "open mike" policy, why not back up and review your first post/manifesto (listing your demands) and introduce a single topic you'd like to debate and start from there?

You seem sincere enough, just obnoxious and simplistic.

Your friend,

drbill