Ex Haitian Presidents returning

dulce

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Jan 1, 2002
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GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I posted this in the Haiti section to discuss Haiti. Could you please stick to the country that I intended to be discussed?
Your need to be correct and out do each other is going to get yet another interesting thread closed.
Start your own thread to fight about other countries leaders please. I am interested inlearning more about the welfare of the Haitian people.
 

greydread

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Jan 3, 2007
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Does anyone share my opinion that both of the crooks are coming back to steal more money? They see tons of money pouring into Haiti and see that others are stealing it before they get a chance to get thier hands on it? What to hell? They spent all that they stole before and are greedy for more.

YouTube - haiti one year after

Look through a few dozen of these video reports that are put out on youtube and you will see one consistent truth:

All of the News agencies are reporting how horribly wrong the earthquake relief efforts have gone in the year since the quake and at the same time every NGO, relious group and government agency as well is reporting how successful their particular mission is.

It is the media's job to scare the Byjesus out of you and it is the mission of the NGO's and religious groups to tell you how efficient they are and how much more good they could do if they just had more money and each government agency has its own agenda going. They're all simply doing what they get paid to do just like the "Poverty Pimps" of the Johnson era social welfare programs or the "Carpetbaggers" of the reconstruction era in the US.

With all of these vultures descending on the rotting corpse of the first country to break the colonial hold on them and throw off the shackles of chattle slavery why would the arrival of two home grown, yet far less insignificant ones matter?

There is a greater evil afoot in Haiti than these two could ever produce.
 

getthesenets

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Nov 4, 2010
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GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I posted this in the Haiti section to discuss Haiti. Could you please stick to the country that I intended to be discussed?
Your need to be correct and out do each other is going to get yet another interesting thread closed.
Start your own thread to fight about other countries leaders please. I am interested inlearning more about the welfare of the Haitian people.


I was the first one to reply and only my last 2 lines mentioned Castro and Cuba.

Just pointing out more shortcomings of the 2 ex leaders, that they were ineffective. I used Fidel as an example of a person who is the media personification of a dictator, BUT....it's hard to argue with some of the ACTUAL accomplishments of Cuba under him.

Duvalier and Aristide surely stole money and surely have financial motives for returning but beneath the greed, they were just poor leaders.

I didn't think 2 lines would or could derail a thread and that wasn't my intention.
I have a few people on ignore, so I couldn't follow fully where this thread was headed anyway.


Thanks for

Unstoppable-Denzel-Washington-Chris-Pine.jpg
 

dulce

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Jan 1, 2002
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I agree Grey but do you or anyone else think it is possible that either of the ex presidents can get themselves back into the money stealing game?
Personally, I feel sympathy for the Haitian people but I would not give a penny to any organization in Haiti even before the eathquake. This is because of the long history of the money never getting to the people. I would do what I did when I lived in the DR and give some of life's daily needs directly to families that I knew. In my mind that is the only sure way of knowing a human need is being met.
 

dulce

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Yes, Get I noticed and appreciated your effort to discuss the topic at hand. Unfortunately on DR1 some people will ignore all your words except the 2 lines in an attempt to make it all about them.
I too have started putting more people on iggy. Thanks for reminding me to iggy a couple more.
 

getthesenets

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I agree Grey but do you or anyone else think it is possible that either of the ex presidents can get themselves back into the money stealing game?
Personally, I feel sympathy for the Haitian people but I would not give a penny to any organization in Haiti even before the eathquake. This is because of the long history of the money never getting to the people. I would do what I did when I lived in the DR and give some of life's daily needs directly to families that I knew. In my mind that is the only sure way of knowing a human need is being met.

As quite a few people on the forum have pointed out, Aristide is STILL popular across Haiti. Anybody that wants to get things done in Haiti moving forward can use Aristide's influence on the masses to their benefit. He can be an asset and he's aware of that.
He therefore will have his hand in the pot, soon enough.

What gets tricky is that....probably soon...there will be an elected president of Haiti. Aristide is STILL talking that BS about how he never finished his last term.

sounds like trouble.
 

greydread

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Jan 3, 2007
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I agree Grey but do you or anyone else think it is possible that either of the ex presidents can get themselves back into the money stealing game?
Personally, I feel sympathy for the Haitian people but I would not give a penny to any organization in Haiti even before the eathquake. This is because of the long history of the money never getting to the people. I would do what I did when I lived in the DR and give some of life's daily needs directly to families that I knew. In my mind that is the only sure way of knowing a human need is being met.

No I don't. I agree with you on direct donation.

Metephorically speaking, I believe that the cure for Haiti's disease is growing in petri dishes all over Africa as we speak.
 

dulce

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I thought that would be the answer I just didn't really want to believe it would be.
 

greydread

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I owe an explanation

No I don't. I agree with you on direct donation.

Metephorically speaking, I believe that the cure for Haiti's disease is growing in petri dishes all over Africa as we speak.

Experiments in true democracy. We have seen very recent attempts at power grabs in young democracies in that region which over the past half century or so have been prone to military coups and tribal conflicts escalating into chaos and total mayhem averted through dipplomatic means which have resulted in power sharing arrangements, redrawing national borders and turning political disourse over to properly elected representatives of those countries' populations. I credit South Africa with the most humane and reasonable transfer of power I'll ever see in my lifetime by searching past centuries of hatred and suffering to find commonality and shared purpose.

If Boers and Zulus could find a path to peaceful coexistence then the Hutus and Tutsis, Luo and Kikuyu, Hausa and Fulani and Yoruba and Igbo....

See where I'm going with this? It's not perfect, but it's a start. Haiti is a most homogeneous society (not unlike Egypt) and the Haitian people should be able to absorb the recent lessons in democratic behavior quite well. As soon as the rest of the World stops trying to "fix" them.
 

RacerX

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Nov 22, 2009
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Get a job at an NGO and relish perpetual turmoil

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TVAetFthS9Y" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>
 

getthesenets

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Experiments in true democracy. We have seen very recent attempts at power grabs in young democracies in that region which over the past half century or so have been prone to military coups and tribal conflicts escalating into chaos and total mayhem averted through dipplomatic means which have resulted in power sharing arrangements, redrawing national borders and turning political disourse over to properly elected representatives of those countries' populations. I credit South Africa with the most humane and reasonable transfer of power I'll ever see in my lifetime by searching past centuries of hatred and suffering to find commonality and shared purpose.

If Boers and Zulus could find a path to peaceful coexistence then the Hutus and Tutsis, Luo and Kikuyu, Hausa and Fulani and Yoruba and Igbo....

See where I'm going with this? It's not perfect, but it's a start. Haiti is a most homogeneous society (not unlike Egypt) and the Haitian people should be able to absorb the recent lessons in democratic behavior quite well. As soon as the rest of the World stops trying to "fix" them.
Very interesting take.

I think there is a de facto "tribal" or "ethnic" division in Haiti as real as some of the divisions we've seen in former eastern bloc or in post colonial Africans countries.

Namely the masses of Black Haitians and the minority of Mulatto(with German, Lebanese,Syrian emigres) Haitians.

With the minority owning most of the wealth and the tools of capitalism, it defies human nature that they would work against their own interests.

There is blood lost, and historic tension between the 2 groups (which has been exploited expertly by politicians, most recently Aristide).

THERE is NO WAY that it compares to apartheid or the history of neo slavery in South Africa, I agree.


What happened in South African ultimately proved to be the "right" thing to do for the country, but was very hard to watch(just as a human being, never mind as a Black person)--the reconciliation "hearing"

In terms of absorbing the lessons of other places.....and I'm being real here...Haiti is, has been, and in the near future will be VERY isolated. No public schools, majority of the population speaks as a first language a tongue that isn't any of the top 5 languages spoken on this hemisphere, and a low overall literacy rate. Not exactly the conditions that makes us open to absorb information, education, world events, or lessons from other places.
 

RacerX

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Experiments in true democracy. We have seen very recent attempts at power grabs in young democracies in that region which over the past half century or so have been prone to military coups and tribal conflicts escalating into chaos and total mayhem averted through dipplomatic means which have resulted in power sharing arrangements, redrawing national borders and turning political disourse over to properly elected representatives of those countries' populations. I credit South Africa with the most humane and reasonable transfer of power I'll ever see in my lifetime by searching past centuries of hatred and suffering to find commonality and shared purpose.

If Boers and Zulus could find a path to peaceful coexistence then the Hutus and Tutsis, Luo and Kikuyu, Hausa and Fulani and Yoruba and Igbo....


See where I'm going with this? It's not perfect, but it's a start. Haiti is a most homogeneous society (not unlike Egypt) and the Haitian people should be able to absorb the recent lessons in democratic behavior quite well. As soon as the rest of the World stops trying to "fix" them.

But you have to be clear here, The Hutus and Tutsis are Belgian classifications not indigenous ones. And the Boers only conceded to peaceful coexistence with the Zulu for the same reason the British gave independence to Kenya. Those Maumaus and those Zulus were quite violent and relentless fighters. And so we all understand what I mean, they would kill not only the settler but his entire family.

Even in South Africa, the yoke was only removed on government sanctioned apartheid. The Boers, Germans and Dutch still control the economic and core political society.

I think this Africa thing plus worldwide revulsion over Haiti having to pay France for its freedom will end imperialist influence by big wig lawyers at the IMF and World Bank.
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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From Wikipedia:

The US administration dismantled the constitutional system, reinstituted labor conscription for building roads, and established the National Guards that ran the country by violence after the Marines left.[9] It also made massive improvements to infrastructure: 1700 km of roads were made usable; 189 bridges were built; many irrigation canals were rehabilitated, hospitals, schools, and public buildings were constructed, and drinking water was brought to the main cities.
US foot on Cuba's neck? Cuba is free to trade with any country it wants, except free and open trade with the USA. Castro uses the embargo as an excuse for his failures, and it works because you believe it. The largest exporter of food to Cuba is the evil USA. America does and always has done things they feel is in the best interests of America. All other countries do the same. You don't think Cuban doctors just go to countries out of the goodness of their hearts. Surely you aren't that naive. You would think with Cuba being so close they could have been taking Haitians by the thousands to Cuba for education and then sending them back to Haiti.
Do you not think it's annoying sitting here in the free north strong and free and listen to Obama babble about being the leader of the free world, and only in America can people dare to dream. How arrogant, and I'm generally pro-American.

Well I guess Haiti has everything it needs - all built by the gracious Americans.Curiously it does not look like that on the ground.
Firstly -when was this done?
Years ago.
What are the American doing now?
Buggerall!

And Cuba is free to trade with anyone they want - except the largest consumer economy in the world - right on their doorstep?
Yes, if the US took their foot of the Cuba's neck they would do a lot better.
But the US is teaching them a lesson?
Pure arrogance.


And the best interests of the US?
A ****y little country like Cuba is a threat to US national interests?
Come on!

At least be honest if you cannot be right.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
 

bob saunders

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Well I guess Haiti has everything it needs - all built by the gracious Americans.Curiously it does not look like that on the ground.
Firstly -when was this done?
Years ago.
What are the American doing now?
Buggerall!

And Cuba is free to trade with anyone they want - except the largest consumer economy in the world - right on their doorstep?
Yes, if the US took their foot of the Cuba's neck they would do a lot better.
But the US is teaching them a lesson?
Pure arrogance.


And the best interests of the US?
A ****y little country like Cuba is a threat to US national interests?
Come on!

At least be honest if you cannot be right.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Ask your relatives when the American marines were in Haiti (in control of Haiti)- oh knowledgeable about everything Haitian. Google is your friend.
You do know that Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Colombia, Chile ...etc all have vibrant consumer markets and manufacturers that Cuba is free to trade with.
I guess the biggest question would be what have Haitians done for Haiti.
What facts are incorrect? If the American government feels that their policies are correct it doesn't matter what you or I think. The Embargo plays into Castro's hand because he can blame all of Cuba's ills on the Americans. The Americans have made plenty of mistakes in Haiti like killing the Creole pigs but Haitians are still mainly responsible for Haiti good or bad. Nowhere have I said I agree with American foreign policy, in fact I don't, but that doesn't change the facts. You too are not entitled to your own facts. Yes, and learn to read.
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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I disagree!

Yes it matters what you think!
You are a citizen of the world - as soon as you truly believe that it does not matter what you think then they have won.

It matters to me what you think.

Seriously, dude, it is very, very important!
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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I disagree!

Yes it matters what you think!
You are a citizen of the world - as soon as you truly believe that it does not matter what you think then they have won.

It matters to me what you think.

Seriously, dude, it is very, very important!

The American government barely cares what Americans think. You are correct though It's important to believe that our opinions count.
 

greydread

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Jan 3, 2007
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I'm speaking of more recent events

But you have to be clear here, The Hutus and Tutsis are Belgian classifications not indigenous ones. And the Boers only conceded to peaceful coexistence with the Zulu for the same reason the British gave independence to Kenya. Those Maumaus and those Zulus were quite violent and relentless fighters. And so we all understand what I mean, they would kill not only the settler but his entire family.

Even in South Africa, the yoke was only removed on government sanctioned apartheid. The Boers, Germans and Dutch still control the economic and core political society.

I think this Africa thing plus worldwide revulsion over Haiti having to pay France for its freedom will end imperialist influence by big wig lawyers at the IMF and World Bank.

It doesn't matter. I'm not referring to "Jomo Kenyatta" Kenya of 1960's. I'm referring to the Kibaki/ Odinga Kenya of today where the country was torn in half over the last election until a Kofi Annan brokered power sharing deal was put into place. It's not perfect and it's not finished but after 1,500 deaths in bloody tribal warfare it's better than the alternative.

Likewise, the "lessons learned" struggles which led to the formation of Malawi, Zambia and Zimbabwe and the subsequent devastation of the former "Rhodesia" in terms of agricultural output (and their economies with it). South Africa made the most remarkable transition of government that we are likely to see in our lifetimes. The truth and reconcilliation commission represented the best in humanity overcoming the worst in humanity. There is still terrible poverty in South Africa but that is being worked out internally by all parties concerned and the interference of outside governments is not the driving force of their politics. This is the power of understanding history. It gives people the advantage of learning from one anothers' mistakes and improving their own democratic processes.

Unlike the last century, African solutions are coming out of Africa rather than being brokered by the US, Britain and other outsiders. Another great lesson here is that it takes a generation or two to beat swords into plowshares. There is also much that the former colonisers can learn from their hosts as well:

African Sage Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)


This is why I have insisted that the solution to Haiti's problem (not "problems", it's one great big problem) lies first with Haiti, secondly with the entire Caribbean region and lastly with the people who are over there right now telling them what they need instead of asking them what they need. There exists centuries old wisdom in Haiti's diaspora and it is now time to call it to the task of uplifting it's people.