Haiti can not catch a break

[RacerX]

And this highlights the problem with bringing up problems with culture. Its easy to be labelled as racist. If I were racist I would not live in a country which is 70% dark skinned like the DR.

I don't believe for a second the problem is with the the haitian/west african races.

I believe the problem is with their CULTURE, per my other thread.

Hmm, but you didnt say culture. And to be absolutely clear what you mean: Those West African countries of which you speak of as being failed states ALL HAPPEN TO BE Former FRENCH COLONIES DONT THEY? Cote d'Ivore, Sierra Leone, Senegal, Algeria, Tunisia, NIger etc? So why dont we make a clarification that way? Maybe there is a problem with Francophone colonialism? As opposed to Anglophone colonialism? Or there may be specific flaws in the administration of the colony in deference to the home state?
It is not easy to be labelled as a racist when you make your point known, en veritas.
So your comment of natural selection was catered toward the ineptitude in their culture that in light of its repetitive failures it would have been eliminated in the past? If so, You dont need natural selection to do that. You only need competition. People flock to reggaeton because merengue is a stagnant form of music who creativity has been stifled for years. People go to McDonalds because chicken, rice and red beans isnt fresh and innovative. People become Protestants or Evangelicals because Catholicism has too many rules. You dont need natural selection, you only need competition. People will tend to drift towards the better system. You build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.

 

[Adrian Bye]

RacerX, you make a good point. On an initial glance many of the most problematic countries do seem to be former french colonies. Maybe the problem is in french colonialism.

Looking at this list of british colonies there are plenty with big problems:

http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-colon.html#list

- Myanmar
- Nigeria
- Zimbabwe
- Mauritius
- Maldives
- Sierra Leone
- Sudan
- Uganda
- Zanzibar

 

[RacerX]

RacerX, you make a good point. On an initial glance many of the most problematic countries do seem to be former french colonies. Maybe the problem is in french colonialism.

It doesn't change the issue of culture change being required though.

Well, lets see "SACRE BLEU!" or "Mon Dieu", whatever man. See thats a different issue right there. See, maybe French colonies were expected to live in peonage? Right? France is the largest country in Europe(well, continental Europe) but it is still smaller than Texas. Cannot say much for Texas, but it does help France to always stay in world affairs by having all these countries be in a state of chaos. Were it not so, wouldnt French imperialism fall by the wayside as Italian colonialism, Portuguese colonialism and Spanish colonialism? Gives them a rationale for a high military budget and also allows French based corporations to compete with the UK/US/Canadian corporations on the world scale?
You re saying that this "culture" has been corrupted and that is why the rule of law has failed. I say it was designed to fail so there is always a need to extraterrestial interventions-economic, military and political.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Yea, I downplayed the US Marines kidnapping, but there were FFL there to administer some of the takeover

This is another Haitian myth. Aristide was not kidnapped. If the US had not flown Aristide out of Haiti he would have been killed by advancing rebel troops(largely made up of Aristide's ex-paramilitaries, the "Cannibal Army.") Aristide was a psychotic thug.

Aristide's most celebrated cronies, some infamous Haitian drug lords, were frog-marched out of the country by American Marines. I don't recall anyone missing any of them...

 

[Tom F.]

Aristide was kidnapped and the advancing rebel troops were supplied by the US from the DR. I populist president in Haiti is seen as dangerous by the powers to be. Funny how I do not see any reporting about the damage and relief effort in Petionville. That is probably where the US will start.

 

[bob saunders]

Aristide was kidnapped and the advancing rebel troops were supplied by the US from the DR. I populist president in Haiti is seen as dangerous by the powers to be. Funny how I do not see any reporting about the damage and relief effort in Petionville. That is probably where the US will start.

You don't mention all the money this populous ex-priest stole. There is plenty of reporting about damage in Petionville.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Aristide was kidnapped and the advancing rebel troops were supplied by the US from the DR. I populist president in Haiti is seen as dangerous by the powers to be. Funny how I do not see any reporting about the damage and relief effort in Petionville. That is probably where the US will start.

Everything you've written here shows how truly misinformed you are. You obviously don't have any idea at all what you are talking about.

 

[CJnNJ]

I have no problem with what you're posting in this thread and don't see any evidence of race baiting... let alone militant. (militant?)

Keep posting; we're reading.

CJ

1. That choice is yours, Farrakhan is more interesting than Cornel West. West is a gasbag, if I do say so. Overly eloquent for no real purpose. And dont think I dont know him, West from Sacramento, Ca., accused of rape as a young man, went on to get a PhD and presently teaches at Princeton. I know Cornel West. If you ever compared what the 2 of them say you d see it for yourself.
Race baiting buffoon? Whats YOUR agenda Batman? You cannot find one statement I made which baits race. Nope, not one. Excuse me but who is the person that said natural selection would have eliminated these people in the past? Me? No, it was not me. And I should defer to whom for what? Because he has been here longer? If you re wrong, you re wrong.
If you make a general statement it is because it is prelude to your position on the subject, now excuse, me if I draw the most clear conclusion one could make from the premise written. I like how one is so astute as to condense the entire scientific philosophy of Darwinism into a 3 word bumper sticker.
2. I am not militant nor abrasive. If you believe it to be maybe it is because my writing style is overtly expressive. It may have hurt your feelings, but is this what we re discussing here? Your feelings? Cannot apologize for that. And will not deflect from it. I was under the impression that we re talking about the people who suffer needlessly?
3. I m not divisive. I didnt make comparison between here and there and assert that a failed state here and a failed state there must be within these people because they originated from there. Wasnt me. But it was me who took offense to it.
And finally, you cannot get a tone from reading an article. The only tone you get is the one you transcribe to it. You consider my writing style abrasive while people die from hunger in the street. Whats wrong with you man? I like how you prioritize offense, man, real scientific. Its like another day on the golf course, right? The people will know this event now and in a year from now when we move onto something new. And next year when he look at the next disaster these people will still be stuck in a life of inadequate subsistence.
4. I posed real questions in that post. And no one has posted answers why not? Were they invalid? Off point? Or do they proffer answers one may not want to consider?
And by the way the most progressive action in human civilization have ALWAYS come from the margins.

 

[Adrian Bye]

Keep posting; we're reading.

i'd like to know what you think. i've been pretty controversial today.

 

[Willowtears]

i'd like to know what you think. i've been pretty controversial today.

You boys are ruining my evening at the bar. To addicted to stop reading you guys write. For the love of the Gods, it's Friday, let's leave politics for now and have some drinks on me.

For those capitalist... You owe this socialist some more wetdreams!!!

 

[paddy]

This could be a "blessing in disguise" for Haiti...if done in the right way Haiti could possibly have a new life...btw.. in case you haven't noticed the DR has it's own share of corruption and the suffering that goes hand in hand with it.

 

[Onions/Carrots]

The causes of any serious problem are complex. But is haiti really so different today from most west african countries where most of the people are descended from?

Diamond in both books wrote extensively why Europe prospered and Africa didn't. In a nutshell, the agrarian advantages afforded Europe the dense populations which conferred them the technological advantages that come with food surpluses creating technical specializations.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR CULTURE!

In few words, if you have more to start with, you'll get more later on.

Now knowing your general argument, you will try to find any example however specious and spurious to uphold your erroneous belief that culture is causative and indicative of economic failure.

Mind you, no major university upholds your thesis. They debate Diamond's overall proposition but in the general sense accept his premise.

There is a racist connotation in your 1st sentence.

Yes, Adrian's comments would lead anyone to believe that.

 

[mountainannie]

US Southern Command is working to indentify more doctors, nurses and other medical personnel willing to serve.

Send e-mail with:
Name
Contact Info
Area/s of specialization
Language skills
Availability

to:

Tony Colmenares
colmenarest@usa.redcross.org<mailto:colmenarest@usa.redcross.org>
786-566-0551-cell

He is coordinating for SouthCom.

Thank you.

 

[Adrian Bye]

Meanwhile the DR is on the same island with the same resources and does fine. There are at least 20 other caribbean islands with various cultures which are also stable. Yet Haiti remains incredibly poor.

Citing one author I've never heard of vs this real world evidence we see before our eyes is not particularly compelling.

This isn't about establishing consensus. We've had NGOs in Haiti for a long time and they've spent billions. Its time to take a new approach.

(and do me a favor and drop the racism slur, it injects unnecessary emotion into an important issue)

 

[bob saunders]

Diamond in both books wrote extensively why Europe prospered and Africa didn't. In a nutshell, the agrarian advantages afforded Europe the dense populations which conferred them the technological advantages that come with food surpluses creating technical specializations.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR CULTURE!

In few words, if you have more to start with, you'll get more later on.

Now knowing your general argument, you will try to find any example however specious and spurious to uphold your erroneous belief that culture is causative and indicative of economic failure.

Mind you, no major university upholds your thesis. They debate Diamond's overall proposition but in the general sense accept his premise.



Yes, Adrian's comments would lead anyone to believe that.

SO EXPLAIN Zimbabwe where the Brits made it in to an agrarian success, trained workers and black managers, but as soon as the locals took over almost everything failed, same in Uganda (only there they kicked out the Indians also). It certainly isn't anything to do with the colour of their skin--- so what causes the failure.

 

[Onions/Carrots]

Meanwhile the DR is on the same island with the same resources and does fine. There are at least 20 other caribbean islands with various cultures which are also stable. Yet Haiti remains incredibly poor.

Citing one author I've never heard of vs this real world evidence we see before our eyes is not particularly compelling.

This isn't about establishing consensus. We've had NGOs in Haiti for a long time and they've spent billions. Its time to take a new approach.

(and do me a favor and drop the racism slur, it injects unnecessary emotion into an important issue)

If you've never heard of Jared Diamond, then our conversation is over.

And if you are using Haiti as any metric, then every nation is doing just fine.

The DR is an economic cesspool whose impressive GDP ratios have been propped up by faux money namely foreign debt.

The majority of the DR populace lives in abject poverty. It is basically a nation of street peddlers, nickel-n-dime salesmen, shoeshine boys and fruit vendors.

I don't know what DR you are speaking of. But thanks to folks like you, I am able to sell what we have at TOP PRICE.

Thanks once again!

SO EXPLAIN Zimbabwe where the Brits made it in to an agrarian success, trained workers and black managers, but as soon as the locals took over almost everything failed, same in Uganda (only there they kicked out the Indians also). It certainly isn't anything to do with the colour of their skin--- so what causes the failure.

You don't read posts here do you Bob. My answer is in the post you quoted.

Re-read it and if you don't understand it, I'd be glad to explain it to you in SIMPLER TERMS.

Both of you guys crack me up. You're both racist yet live in the DR. WHY?

I'm selling everything my family owns and we are pulling out. What is your paradox in this issue?

 

[bob saunders]

If you've never heard of Jared Diamond, then our conversation is over.

And if you are using Haiti as any metric, then every nation is doing just fine.

The DR is an economic cesspool whose impressive GDP ratios have been propped up by faux money namely foreign debt.

The majority of the DR populace lives in abject poverty. It is basically a nation of street peddlers, nickel-n-dime salesmen, shoeshine boys and fruit vendors.

I don't know what DR you are speaking of. But thanks to folks like you, I am able to sell what we have at TOP PRICE.

Thanks once again!



You don't read posts here do you Bob. My answer is in the post you quoted.

Re-read it and if you don't understand it, I'd be glad to explain it to you in SIMPLER TERMS.

Both of you guys crack me up. You're both racist yet live in the DR. WHY?

I'm selling everything my family owns and we are pulling out. What is your paradox in this issue?

You have no idea was racism is, do you. I read your explanation, I just don't agree with it. You're an intelligent fellow but sometimes a little full of yourself.

 

[Santiagoguy]

I'm selling everything my family owns and we are pulling out. What is your paradox in this issue?[/QUOTE]



SOFTY :bunny:

 

[bob saunders]

Colonization, Westernization, India, Africa, Asia, cultural decline, pop culture, Western classical music, Indian Folk Art, social progress, collective consciousness, tradition, modernity, equal access, opportunity
Onions & Carrots is from the elite class of Dominicans that conspired to keep the majority down. Now that he has received his foreign education paid for by the sweat of poor Dominicans he feels guilty, so he lashes out at the rest of us as racists....etc. He has decided to abandon his country as they can't make the huge fortunes they use to make. And just so you don't think i see any merit in your argument, I do, I just have a different take on it than you.

 

[Onions/Carrots]

You're an intelligent fellow but sometimes a little full of yourself.

I agree on both counts.

Onions & Carrots is from the elite class of Dominicans that conspired to keep the majority down. Now that he has received his foreign education paid for by the sweat of poor Dominicans he feels guilty, so he lashes out at the rest of us as racists....etc. He has decided to abandon his country as they can't make the huge fortunes they use to make. And just so you don't think i see any merit in your argument, I do, I just have a different take on it than you.

LOL, you're a funny guy, Bob. I enjoy reading your posts. You know, we're not very different you and I. You'll maintain the WHITE EUROPEAN presence in the DR teaching the natives the path to progress. :cheeky:

SEMPER FI!