Haiti: The Least Developed Country in the Western Hemisphere...

[malko]

Off topic but to answer fellow poster. Ever hears of jean moulin, the resistance, the thousands of soldiers who fled to england to continue to fight, le vercors..... lots of traitors/collaborateurs, but lots of resistance fighters too, lots of people who also help jews to flee occupied france...

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

Slavery was abolished in Saint Martin, Martinique and Guadaloupe at the same time it was abolished in Haiti. The culture was similar. The difference was that the French maintained some sort of order in their overseas departments, and independence in Haiti was followed by a series of internecine wars. I am guessing that despite all the money France has poured into its Caribbean islands, the net result has been that they have taken far more money out than was invested.

I do not think it is fair to blame the average Haitian for the mess Haiti has become. He rarely has had any control, being as survival has compelled him to take the only way out. You cannot blame the average Haitian for using charcoal instead of gas: he has no way of buying gas or the burners that are needed to use it. Charcoal is all he has.

The North was fairly prosperous during the reign of Henri Christophe: but when he had his heart attack, the entire structure collapsed. Anarchy takes over when the leader falls, as it used to do in China when there was a flood, earthquake or fall of a dynasty. Anarchy, like charcoal, is the only alternative for the individual.

 

[K-Mel]

While I don't completely disagree on some aspects of your post, I feel you are trapped into a politically correct, slightly leftist world-view.
I dislike the Dom-Tom mentality, and I am not setting "Les Antilles Fran?aises" as an example, being too well aware of its shortcomings.
But give some credit to the B?k?s. They provided work to the rest of the population. It's simply too easy to dismiss them as racist/classist nowadays. In Haiti "les gros Mangeurs" are the equivalent, and while they did not come from Brazil, they are for most of them descendants of Syrians Christians escaping the Muslim pogroms of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century.
But I simply can't go away from this concept: Haiti's failure started at Bois-Caiman. The independence in 1804 was way too early.
And no black pride will ever be enough to justify such a failure. Let's be pragmatic. Let's not hide behind the pride BS.

I don't have any dogs in the debate man, because I am not Haitian and even less a leftist. General GIAP was an asian and also a hero (why bring up any color pride into this debate anyway ?).

Credit to the b?k?s ? Which credits ? Provide work in their bananas / sugar plantations at low wages ?

They own the supermarkets in Guadeloupe and Martinique and why the prices are so high anyway for people who have so low incomes ?

Once again, Guadeloupe and Martinique is a paradise only for the B?k?s...Have a chat with people of Guadeloupe and Martinique and you will find out.There were serious troubles in 2012 in Guadeloupe and the independence movement has many fans.

Each nation has the right to be respected and managed his internal affairs, so I understand those people who fought colonialism like Vietnamese , Kanaks of New Caledonia , Tahiti or even the US who fought the English in 1776.

No man with a healthy mind wants to be a slave or considered as a sub-human being by a potential colonizer...

And it is not a Voodoo or whatever ceremony who freed the slaves of Haiti...French wanted an army who keep the English and Spanish out of their colony, this explains the first act of liberation by Sonthonax and Polverel. Let us be rational...

 

[JLA1125]

The comparison was to show just how awful the French colonial period was and how it's effect actually retarded the growth of many countries like Haiti after gaining their independence. Yet that is still something that European colonial apologists still stubbornly refuse to admit.

 

[K-Mel]

Slavery was abolished in Saint Martin, Martinique and Guadaloupe at the same time it was abolished in Haiti. The culture was similar. The difference was that the French maintained some sort of order in their overseas departments, and independence in Haiti was followed by a series of internecine wars. I am guessing that despite all the money France has poured into its Caribbean islands, the net result has been that they have taken far more money out than was invested.

I do not think it is fair to blame the average Haitian for the mess Haiti has become. He rarely has had any control, being as survival has compelled him to take the only way out. You cannot blame the average Haitian for using charcoal instead of gas: he has no way of buying gas or the burners that are needed to use it. Charcoal is all he has.

The North was fairly prosperous during the reign of Henri Christophe: but when he had his heart attack, the entire structure collapsed. Anarchy takes over when the leader falls, as it used to do in China when there was a flood, earthquake or fall of a dynasty. Anarchy, like charcoal, is the only alternative for the individual.

Well French made billions out of their colonies (slave trade 1st, then sugar , coffee etc)

How did they maintain order in Guadeloupe or Martinique for instance ? Well by sending army and destroying men, women and children ( Rochambeau) before landing to Haiti to re-install slavery. All movements against the way their colonies were ruled by France were crushed (directly or indirectly), the latest martyrs died few years ago.

Gentlemen, as a man born, raised and educated in France why do you think that all these facts about colonialism (including the Haitian revolution ) are not taught to us at school from Kindergarden to University ? They know, they are wrong...

 

[Squat]

And it is not a Voodoo or whatever ceremony who freed the slaves of Haiti...Let us be rational...

Now that you mention it
I've always wondered
(Rational, in Haiti? No... Just come down here and try )

 

[K-Mel]

Any discussion of the problems of Haiti needs to begin with the French Colonial Period (1660-1804). The French didn?t really treat Haiti as a colony like the British treated theirs. It was more like an island prison. For 146 years, to the French the entire island of Hispaniola was nothing more than one huge sugar plantation.

To compare the French colonization of Haiti to the British colonization of the United States, let?s look at one category: colleges and universities. From 1607 to 1776 the British built several dozen universities in the American colonies, including William and Mary, Princeton, Yale, and, of course, Harvard, which was already a 140-year-old institution by the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Many of the signors of the Declaration were graduates of these colleges with degrees in law and parliamentary procedure ? just the type of leaders a young, fledgling nation is going to need in order to survive and succeed.

Now let?s look at the French colonization of Haiti. From 1660 to 1804, how many colleges and universities did the French build in Haiti to grow the future leaders of that country? Zero. That?s right. In 146 years of colonial rule the French could not manage to build one single college or university on the entire island. As a result, instead of leaving an independent nation into the hands of learned men with university education in science and law, the new nation was left into the hands of illiterate former slaves whose only knowledge of government leadership was tribal warfare.

100 % true, French created these colonies in the caribbean sea for different purposes :

- Deport slaves in the colonies to be used as a forced labor.
- Enjoy the wealth at colonial level (Haiti) or for the absentees, and for the mother nation.


They did not care about the well being of their population ( wealthy planters had to send their children, sometimes mulattoes to France to get an education).

It is a surprise ? Not really Haiti has been founded by the rabble of French societies according to l'Abb? Reynal : Thieves ( how many times they attacked the spanish side of la hispaniola including Santiago ?) , Flibusters, Vagabonds, Criminals of the worst kind ( you should check out the letters of D'Estaing begging the French royalty to stop dropping the hoodlums in that colony in Pierre de Vayssi?re).

 

[mountainannie]

Interesting to read the historic perspectives, particularly from the French. But in response to the original OP the one thing that Haiti will absolutely resist is MORE foreign occupation. As BeenAway posted, it is already under occupation by MINUSTAH of the UN and still essentially a dependent aid government which will not do much without the approval of the US Canada.

Note that Haiti has attempted a republic for as long as the US has. And that it was cut short when they assassinated President Sam at the turn of the century and the US occupied Haiti for the first time. After the second US occupation, the US simply backed a military dictator to keep order, as the US always prefers that to populism. Then Aristide won in 1990.

So. Really. Modern Haitian democracy can only be said to have begun in 1990 which is an infancy. And then we have a coup, and then a military intervention, a peaceful election, a second election, an insurecction,. oh. I cannot keep it straight. But at least Preval served two terms and retired in his own country.

Add to that hurricanes, floods, the earthquake which is cited as the largest environmental disaster in the hemisphere. And an international community which thought that food sufficiency really should not be a priority but that the population should rely on factory export work.

Can you blame the Haitians for all this? For being in the center of the cocaine routes? For the floods? the earthquakes? Duvalier?

If Balaguer had not given Dominicans stoves and subsidized propane, defended the forests and made the national parks, the Dominicans might still be cooking with charcoal as well.

 

[the gorgon]

I don't have any dogs in the debate man, because I am not Haitian and even less a leftist. General GIAP was an asian and also a hero (why bring up any color pride into this debate anyway ?).

Credit to the b?k?s ? Which credits ? Provide work in their bananas / sugar plantations at low wages ?

They own the supermarkets in Guadeloupe and Martinique and why the prices are so high anyway for people who have so low incomes ?

Once again, Guadeloupe and Martinique is a paradise only for the B?k?s...Have a chat with people of Guadeloupe and Martinique and you will find out.There were serious troubles in 2012 in Guadeloupe and the independence movement has many fans.

Each nation has the right to be respected and managed his internal affairs, so I understand those people who fought colonialism like Vietnamese , Kanaks of New Caledonia , Tahiti or even the US who fought the English in 1776.

No man with a healthy mind wants to be a slave or considered as a sub-human being by a potential colonizer...

And it is not a Voodoo or whatever ceremony who freed the slaves of Haiti...French wanted an army who keep the English and Spanish out of their colony, this explains the first act of liberation by Sonthonax and Polverel. Let us be rational...

don't you just love it when people who pay quasi slave wages are lauded for "providing employment"?

 

[K-Mel]

No i know they wont ... Just stating it would be the only solution had this been done after the war ... Most of the North coast was Settle by Jews that made ahuge DIFFERENCE to the DR ... The DR was the only country that would accept them during the war

Actually the jews were already there since the beginning of the colonization (La Hispaniola , Jamaica, Cuba, PR etc) since Conversos financed Colombus and were also part of his expedition (expelled by Fernando y Isabela). The conquistadore who conquered Jamaica was a converso (namely Juan de Esquivel, See Hugh Thomas "Rivers of Gold" for all the conquistadores conversos)

Jews arrived in Haiti (under French rule or Saint Domingue) when expelled from Brazil, many of them were Portuguese Jews. The first French slave codes ( Le Code Noir in 1685) recommended that they should be expelled from their colonies, but since they had a great knowledge about sugar ( gained in Brazil) they finally stayed in those colonies (and had to pay a tax).

Coming from Haiti, Isaac de Mend?s France ( Portuguese converso and ancestor of Pierre de Mend?s France ) had some troubles in France because he landed with slaves , and under the French law any slave who landed in that country was free ( Since the 14th century i.e. serfdom was abolished) , consequently his slaves were freed at " la table marbr?e". See Pierre Pluchon for the Jews in Haiti: "N?gres et Juifs au XVIII?me si?cle : Le Racisme au si?cle des Lumi?res "

There were many jews in the French colonies who had commercial relationships with their Brethen in Nantes, Rouen, Bordeaux (famous Gradis Family).

There were also Jews in Jamaica, Barbados under English rule in colonial times.

So jews arrived way before Trujillo, in la Hispaniola and other places like Curacao, Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti etc

 

[K-Mel]

don't you just love it when people who pay quasi slave wages are lauded for "providing employment"?

Yeah we should praise God, because of them people are not dying with anger :surprised

 

[the gorgon]

Actually the jews were already there since the beginning of the colonization (La Hispaniola , Jamaica, Cuba, PR etc) since Conversos financed Colombus and were also part of his expedition (expelled by Fernando y Isabela). The conquistadore who conquered Jamaica was a converso (namely Juan de Esquivel, See Hugh Thomas "Rivers of Gold" for all the conquistadores conversos)

Jews arrived in Haiti (under French rule or Saint Domingue) when expelled from Brazil, many of them were Portuguese Jews. The first French slave codes ( Le Code Noir in 1685) recommended that they should be expelled from their colonies, but since they had a great knowledge about sugar ( gained in Brazil) they finally stayed in those colonies (and had to pay a tax).

Coming from Haiti, Isaac de Mend?s France ( Portuguese converso and ancestor of Pierre de Mend?s France ) had some troubles in France because he landed with slaves , and under the French law any slave who landed in that country was free ( Since the 14th century i.e. serfdom was abolished) , consequently his slaves were freed at " la table marbr?e". See Pierre Pluchon for the Jews in Haiti: "N?gres et Juifs au XVIII?me si?cle : Le Racisme au si?cle des Lumi?res "

There were many jews in the French colonies who had commercial relationships with their Brethen in Nantes, Rouen, Bordeaux (famous Gradis Family).

There were also Jews in Jamaica, Barbados under English rule in colonial times.

So jews arrived way before Trujillo, in la Hispaniola and other places like Curacao, Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti etc

K-Mel, are you a professor of history, or is it just a passion?

just askin..you are good..

 

[the gorgon]

And ironically, it's the strong environmental policy of the DR that made the charcoal production of Haiti even worse.

It gets very tiresome to put blame the Haitians as the primary cause of their troubles when so much of their economy has been directed and often sabotage from abroad or from within by a brutal head of state. But it's so much easier to simply blame the lazy, voodoo worshiping niggers. What did the US do when the slaves revolted? They put an embargo on Haiti along with Britain, who still had their own interests in slavery and colonies. Jamaica isn't exactly an economic powerhouse and they were under Britain's rule until 1962.

and, Peter, Jamaica was left with a legacy of exemplary education and institutions, such as a very efficient civil service. then again, that bolsters the case of those who espouse the belief that negroes cannot govern successfully.

 

[AlterEgo]

where do you get your historical information from? the island of Jamaica took in several Ashkenazi Jewish refugees during WW2. Trujillo took in the Jews not for humanitarian reasons, but to "lighten" the pigment of Dominicans by miscegenation

Why he welcomed them is not important, he likely saved most of their lives. At lot of the German Jews on the SS St. Louis, which was rejected by the US, Cuba, et al, ended up dead in concentration camps after being returned to Europe.

 

[the gorgon]

Why he welcomed them is not important, he likely saved most of their lives. At lot of the German Jews on the SS St. Louis, which was rejected by the US, Cuba, et al, ended up dead in concentration camps after being returned to Europe.

i see your point, AE, but Trujillo did his act not out of altruism and concern for his fellow man, but from a standpoint of ulterior motive.

 

[PeterInBrat]

Trujillo also let them in because he was still fighting pushback over the parsley massacre. Geez, you machete some 10,000 Haitians to death and suddenly the world thinks you're a bad guy...

 

[AlterEgo]

Trujillo also let them in because he was still fighting pushback over the parsley massacre. Geez, you machete some 10,000 Haitians to death and suddenly the world thinks you're a bad guy...

I can't believe I actually smiled over a comment related to such an event..... thanks for the levity.

 

[the gorgon]

Trujillo also let them in because he was still fighting pushback over the parsley massacre. Geez, you machete some 10,000 Haitians to death and suddenly the world thinks you're a bad guy...

i guess people in those times had no sense of humor..

 

[drescape24]

i see your point, AE, but Trujillo did his act not out of altruism and concern for his fellow man, but from a standpoint of ulterior motive.

At the Conference in France ( I cant remember the city...maybe Lyon) Convened by F.D.R, to try to get other countries to accept more Jewish being forced out of The Third Reich. Only the D.R. accepted the plea. Bear on mind this is just a couple of years after the Haitian massacar on the border. So El Jefe sent his brother to propose the Sosua settlement with strings attached.
A- no business men, lawyers, or trademen.
B- the settlers were to farm and work the land as not to compete in busines with the locals.
C- mostly men, so they would inter marry and lighten the local population.
There are two fantastic books that talk about the settlements. Zion in the tropics..... and Trujellos jews? Something like that.


drescape24

 

[Chirimoya]

At the Conference in France ( I cant remember the city...maybe Lyon) Convened by F.D.R, to try to get other countries to accept more Jewish being forced out of The Third Reich.

Evian, 1938
?vian Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia