Haitian Expulsion/AP

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arcoiris

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

The only other "crimes" were working illegally, using false identification, and overcrowding their apartments. I was asked to be their representative and translator so I went through all the proceedings with them.
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

That opens up a can of worms. Who was the illegal employer, where did the ID cards come from, what type of employment were they engaged in, what other crimes were they being investigated for (I can assure you that you were not made privy to all that information) etc.

It is hardly uncommon for US law enforcement to have multi jurisdictional enforcement when investigating an organized crime

Tom
 
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arcoiris

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

the organized crime was trafficking and employment of illegals. really, Tom, is that so hard for you to believe? The defendants had to be notified of the charges, so I heard the charges. It was only that they were here and working illegally. really. The farm employers got in trouble, the landlords got in trouble and the illegals were deported. The US is very strict now on Latin AMerican illegals, and what the public releases say and what really happens are different. The action was similar to what the DR is doing now - first you get all the illegals out, and then you close off the border, and then you can screen the reentries better. The law also says that no one can apply for a visa who is in the country illegally, but must go back and apply from within the country of origin. It is not true that they only deported criminals.
 
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Tony C.

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP (Susanne)

Susanne,

Priest and Missionaries are possibly the worst source of information there is. They have their own agenda and will say anything that might possibly increase financial donations to their cause.

Tony C.
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

Acoiris

You answered the question for me in your post when you "The organized crime was the imporation and hiring of illegals". That goes from simply having illegals to a conspiracy and or they could even be charged (The operators of the smuggling ring) under RICCO

And as you say, if that were that many involved, they likely used whatever law enforcement agencies that were available simply for the manpower. I'm still quite sure INS was the originating agency and submitted the charges
 
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Tony C.

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

Arcoiris,

If the ATF was involved in rounding up illegal they would set fire to the buildings in order to save the children!
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

acoiris

I think you may have misundersood me some place along the way. I don't doubt ATF was used, it is just unusual unless another crime is or could be involved.

But on the other hand, ALL law enforcement officers in the United States, from Driver License Examiners to the FBI have been empowered to stop and ask suspected illegals or documentation

Tom
 
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arcoiris

Guest
Re: sources of news, or rumors

I can't say religious are the worst sources, but I must admit they are pretty average, and so often no more reliable than anybody else. Everyone has their own perspective, and an anonymous "Belgian priest" is no more credible for being a priest, though no less credible either. I cannot say that they would say anything to get money; but the clergy are not all in agreement on this issue either. It depends on the individual, like any other group of people. As for this particular source, the thing that makes it not too credible is the lack of his name and proof.
 
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Susanne

Guest
Re: sources of news, or rumors

The names were actually mentioned in the reports, but I have forgotten them and I can't find the actual telegram. But I must stress that my first message - the one with the priests and missionaries - should be read together with the one mentioning Amnesty International. It was a fault of mine that they got posted apart.

I don't know what kind of reputation Amnesty International has on your side of the Atlantic Ocean but in Europe they are held in very high esteem. Actually, a report from AI can be a deciding factor as to whether a country can get developing aid or closer ties with Europe. Bad report = lower chances of economic help. Sometimes the report will be an excuse and the real reason be something else, but nevertheless - Amnesty International are influential and, at least in Europe, very credible indeed.

Regards, Susanne

Regards, Susanne
 
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Dee DeMusis

Guest
Re: ATF for sure

HI there, y'all--

I have been following all of the notes on this board and also the daily Latino press here in the States in re the Haitian situation. To say "it isn't pretty" is an understatement of the year, maybe the century.

What is happening here is a case of terrible xenophobia that has been going on for centuries, almost as soon as the Spanish discovered the island. To say that " this has become a pro-Haitian/anti-Dominican" place isn't accurate...people are saying what they opine, wither way. What provoked me to respond is that BOTH sides in the matter need to look in their own mirrors!!!!

Dominicans: look at your history...as written by UNBIASED people...My opinions of Balaguer's are best left in my head...even your own intelligencia who are here in the US are taking exceptopn to what's going on there.

Haitians: you are part of the problem...work to being part of your solution. What I'm sayiong here is neither simple or ignorant from a gringa's mouth...I lived and worked in the DR for a long time and have seen the conditions of the Haitians. No words can describe what I feel, except to say that it brings me to tears.

I love the DR and her people...i just wish that they'd wake up!!!

LS, lighten up!! aaand read a little more.

DD
 
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Dee DeMusis

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

These reports of Dominican roundups are in all the media both in the DR and US. The HAITIAN PROGRES[from Port-Au-Prince and Brooklyn, NY] reports that the US CIA is trying to goad the DR into invading Haiti...A Haitian co-worker of mine also cautions that we shouldn't immediately conclude that what is in the paper is "carved in stone" fact. Arcoiris is correct: be careful what you read into things. YOu can keep track by logging on to the Listin Diario site or El Siglo as well[you need to read Spanish].

By the way, Haitians do not have green cards, they have "carnets." Also, the ones who can manage, can get a non-residnet cedula...but these cannot be had without proof of birth.

To say that his is a big run-around is an understatement.
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

Do they allege the CIA's purpose for this?

Tom
 
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Dee DeMusis

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

Tommy-- Here is part of the text of the news article[found in Haiti Progres-- dated 11/10-11/16 1999]:

A DOMINICAN INVASION OF HAITI?

Washington is goading the Dominican Republic to militarily invade its neighborin order to provide the pretext for a new full-scale United States/United Nations occupation of Haiti and to derail the likely re-election of Jean Bertrand Aristide in November 2000.

This was the analysis put forward by the National Popular Party[PPN] in a Nov. 8 pressconference in Port-au-Prince following a week of unprecedented violence. threats, and expulsions directed against Haitians and Haitian-Ancestry Dominicans in the Dominican Republic...

The PPN recalled that the "laboratory" [as the Haitians call the Pentagon/CIA axix]took many measures to destabilize the Lavalas government during its seven months in power in 1991. One of the destabilizing pressures was the massive deportation of Haitians from the DR by Balaguer... ....................................................................

This article goes on to describe some pretty [what I would call]inflamatory things, Tommy and I'd prefer not to ignite the firestorm...but we are burning the candle at both ends again, needless to say.

Food for thought.

DD
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

I doubt the DR would be sucessful in a military invasion of Haiti, both from an internal and world wide presence. It just does not make sense, as we would be obligated to assist Haiti in an unfriendly takeover?
 
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A. Nony Mouse

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

Excuse me, but wasn't it the US that presssured Raoul Cedras out of Haiti by launching an invasion with the express purpose of installing Jean Bertrand Aristide as President? If they went to so much trouble to do that, why would they want him to not win the 2000 elections?
 
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Dee DeMusis

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

To Nony,Tom and all--

All I did was pass on information found in the press; the Haitian paper is published in Port-au -Prince and Brooklyn, NY.

THIS WHOLE SITUATION DOESN'T MAKE SENSE...it is beyond my comprehension and all I can do is SIGH. I understand both sides of the "argument" but that does NOT make things easier. It almost sounds like two children fighting over who can play in the sandbox: the DR says to Haiti,"you can't play here because all you're going to do is mess up where we play and we're not going to give you any room.NANANANABOOBOO." PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

Cedras and the FRAPH did alot of damage...just ask anyone who lost family members to their raids; the whole political situation in Haiti is a nightmare...The US can't fix it no matter how much intervention we THINK we can put in.

Nony...I am careful what I say for many reasons...I worked in the "thick" of the situation for a long time and can tell you that whether I agree or not, the DR Army and Police do NOT need to use brutality. What is more they need to pay attention to the RULE OF LAW...they want to be considered a civilized place BUT...Their constitution [Article 11]says that children born on DR soil have citizenship EXCEPT THOSE BORN IN TRANSIT...when the parents'documents are confiscated and this fact is used against them, then certainly that proviso kicks in...it's the "burning the candle at both ends" or "wanting cake and eating it too."

Nuff said...

DD
 
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A. Nony Mouse

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion/AP - Amnesty International

The following article reprinted with permission (see footnote) may explain some of the strange goings on. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

------------------------------------------------------

AN EXPLOSION IN DRUG TRAFFICKING THROUGH HAITI

Clinton's Haiti Nightmare

By Marvin Lee

Since 21.000 U.S. troops in 1994 restored the democratically elected Jean-Bertrand Aristide to power in Haiti, it has become the new focal point for cocaine trafficking from South America to the United States. Aristide relinquished his presidential seat to Rene Preval in 1995, but since fraudulent elections last year Haiti has been in total political chaos. Aristide's political opponents blame him for orchestrating the chaos to facilitate his return to power next year.

The more than $3 billion in U.S. aid to Haiti since 1994 has helped only a select few. Poverty and starvation are widespread, while Aristide has turned his interests towards banking. His opponents claim that the former Marxist preacher has amassed a small fortune of $30 million through banks involved in money laundering.

According to a U.S. Government interagency assessment on cocaine movement, in 1996 between 5 and 8 percent of the cocaine coming into the U.S. passed through Haiti. By the third quarter of 1997, it jumped 12 percent, and then it increased to 19 percent by the end of that year.

What has been the response of the Clinton administration to this explosion in cocaine inflow? It has been to remove the only remaining roadblock to the traffickers. Operation Frontier Lance utilized Coast Guard cutters, speedboats, and helicopters to detect and capture drug traffickers in the Caribbean on a round- the-clock basis. Last month, Operation Frontier Lance was shut down by the Clinton Administration.

In 1994, Terry Lenzner's Investigative Group International, Inc. received a no-bid contract from the State Department to train Haitian Police. Lenzner later admitted under oath that he has also been retained by Clinton's personal lawyers to investigate political opponents.

When Justice Department employee Martin Anderson last year blew the whistle on official mismanagement in the training of foreign policemen and prosecutors, including the compromising of U.S. intelligence secrets and visa fraud, he was terminated. Anderson was rehired last month under the Whistleblower Protection Act after an investigation by the Inspector General led to the suspension of the security clearance for the chief of an operation to train policemen in Haiti.

In 1996 charges surfaced that U.S.-trained security forces of Aristide had murdered political opponents. When the U.S. Congress started investigating Clinton administration involvement in the assassinations, what did the White House do? It claimed executive privilege. White House Counsel Jack Quinn refused to turn over 47 subpoenaed White House and State Department documents to Congress.

It seems that Clinton's foreign policy "success" in Haiti has turned into a nightmare with the worst part yet to come.

Published in the July 13, 1998 issue of The Washington Weekly Copyright 1998 The Washington Weekly (<A HREF="http://www.federal.com">http://www.federal.com</A>)

Reposting permitted with this message intact
 
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A. Nony Mouse

Guest
Re: Haitian Expulsion- More info.

This link goes a long way towards explaining CIA interest in Haiti and why they don't want to see Aristide reelected.

<A HREF="http://www.nadn.navy.mil/NAFAC/delegates/papers/Cavanaugh.htm">http://www.nadn.navy.mil/NAFAC/delegates/papers/Cavanaugh.htm</A>