Haitian workers in the DR, and the condition of Haiti . . . is it getting better?

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Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Robert said:
Chiri, I know you have more experience in this area than 99% of the people on the planet, let along this board.

So...

How is that going to happen? How will the DR be involved in that process?
We all know that's the obvious solution, but how do you get to that stage?

The DR has plenty of it's own problems and I think the continuing burden of it's neighbors is just going to bring even more problems to the DR.
Problems that the DR is really not in a position to provide help with, let alone solve.

I'm not in favor of shooting people, but it would not surprise me in the least if the DR decided to close it's borders and take a strong arm stance.

Robert, I'll try to reply without breaching the DR1 DR-related golden rule. Haiti needs everything that the DR does, but in greater quantity and with absolute urgency. Both countries need accountable government that rules in the interest of the people and not just themselves and their elite cronies. Both would benefit from effective international investment as well as long-term development oriented rescue packages. Haiti and the DR also need fairer trading rules that take into account their limitations in the global economy, incentives to produce basic foodstuffs rather than rely on imports, strict environmental enforcement, and much more.

As for the Dominicans, they must take steps to make their army more effective in policing the borders. A 'strong-arm' stance to police your borders and control illegal immigration is not an unreasonable measure if it is done within the limits of international law. The problem is, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the army is corrupt and illegals will continue coming in as long as their passage can be bought.

The Dominican government can continue to raise the Haiti question on the international agenda, as an urgent priority for investment/development aid from the international community.

It is after all the market forces, the promise of employment that attracts the immigrants. If people decided they would employ just Dominicans in the sugar industry, construction, agriculture and domestic work, there would be no incentives for Haitians to come here. But we all know that will never happen. Dominicans just can't have it both ways. If individuals, businesses and the economy are benefitting from the cheap labour, it is pointless to complain about everything that goes with it. Perhaps there should be more rigid enforcement of labour laws, and heavier penalties for employers who employ illegal immigrants.

Ultimately, everyone agrees that it is not the DR's responsibility to take on the crushing burden of a poor country like Haiti. The DR has problems enough of its own.

It is possible to tackle this without descending into hate-filled ranting. The nationalist hysteria displayed by some of our friends here reminds me why I consider myself first and foremost a citizen of the world, who wishes to see all people, everywhere enjoying a decent life.

What after all are national differences? Accidents of birth, no more.
 

Chris

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Chirimoya said:
It is possible to tackle this without descending into hate-filled ranting. The nationalist hysteria displayed by some of our friends here reminds me why I consider myself first and foremost a citizen of the world, who wishes to see all people, everywhere enjoying a decent life.

Thanks Chiri - I read this stuff and get transported back to my country of birth 20 years ago.... It was ugly then, somehow it is uglier now...
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Truer words than these haven't been said in this thread re: potential solutions. It all goes back to this issue of Dominicans taking responsibility for their own actions...

We don't even have to look beyond this thread to start assigning penalties for defying labor laws. :glasses: I used to be a regulatory enforcement officer for the Feds. :tired: It would be my pleasure to use my skills to benefit DR, for I can't be bought.

Chirimoya said:
It is after all the market forces, the promise of employment that attracts the immigrants. If people decided they would employ just Dominicans in the sugar industry, construction, agriculture and domestic work, there would be no incentives for Haitians to come here. But we all know that will never happen. Dominicans just can't have it both ways. If individuals, businesses and the economy are benefitting from the cheap labour, it is pointless to complain about everything that goes with it. Perhaps there should be more rigid enforcement of labour laws, and heavier penalties for employers who employ illegal immigrants.
...

What after all are national differences? Accidents of birth, no more.
 

Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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Racism, Haiti and the DR

I remember after the murder of Martin Luther King, talking to some black students at my university. They told me to stay out of the black community, go back to the white world I belonged in, and clean up my own mess. Judging by the racist comments on this thread, I think we need some education in white racism--in the DR, Robert. I was born in the DR, I have black and not so black cousins. (I am "white"). My grandmother almost disowned my uncle for marrying a black Dominican woman. We ignore racism in the DR, but we have a caste system. The whiter, the better. So any efforts to hunt down and eliminate the Haitians in the DR will also affect the situation of dark skinned Dominicans. So think carefully about any measures you support implementing in the DR. They could also affect your wives, husbands and children. Fight racism, not Haitians.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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A true intellectual

Gabriela,

I just want to say that your comment is very inspiring and on point. The perception on this board (to some) is if you don't want to kill Haitians then you are not truly Dominican or do not identify with Dominican sentiment. Nothing could be more false. There is an article today in El Listin Diario-la vida section which address "el anti-haitianismo" and if it truly began with "el Trujillismo". Hats off to you for such an intelligent observation and statement which summarizes the bases for past, present and future discriminatory practices in the DR if they continue to be dismissed.

Once again I admire what you wrote. Also, you have proven that it is not the quantity in ones words that count but the quality of what is expressed.

-Lesley D


Gabriela said:
I remember after the murder of Martin Luther King, talking to some black students at my university. They told me to stay out of the black community, go back to the white world I belonged in, and clean up my own mess. Judging by the racist comments on this thread, I think we need some education in white racism--in the DR, Robert. I was born in the DR, I have black and not so black cousins. (I am "white"). My grandmother almost disowned my uncle for marrying a black Dominican woman. We ignore racism in the DR, but we have a caste system. The whiter, the better. So any efforts to hunt down and eliminate the Haitians in the DR will also affect the situation of dark skinned Dominicans. So think carefully about any measures you support implementing in the DR. They could also affect your wives, husbands and children. Fight racism, not Haitians.
 

Gabriela

Bronze
Dec 4, 2003
629
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Thank you for listening...

Lesley D said:
Gabriela,

I just want to say that your comment is very inspiring and on point. The perception on this board (to some) is if you don't want to kill Haitians then you are not truly Dominican or do not identify with Dominican sentiment. Nothing could be more false. There is an article today in El Listin Diario-la vida section which address "el anti-haitianismo" and if it truly began with "el Trujillismo". Hats off to you for such an intelligent observation and statement which summarizes the bases for past, present and future discriminatory practices in the DR if they continue to be dismissed.

Once again I admire what you wrote. Also, you have proven that it is not the quantity in ones words that count but the quality of what is expressed.

-Lesley D

I also should mention that racism affects the Black Americans and Canadians who visit the DR. So does sexism...but that's another story.
 

guarocuya

*** Sin Bin ***
Aug 30, 2004
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Nal0whs said:
Guarocuya, overall the article was good.

The author has this rigid mentality of DR being black or something, but that is out of ignorance more than anything else.

I presented the article to show people a more professional manner of presenting the ever increasing Haitian problem and of bringing light that the DR is not the only place with this problem.

I have heard many Haitians say that they hate Dominicans because we basically protect what is ours. Well, they should also hate Bahamians, Cubans, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Guadalupeans, and Martiniquians. In fact, they should hate themselves if they want to hate the people that are causing them the most harm.

BTW, Guarocuya, thank you for those link. Just a quick question. Where is it? I don't see nothing.

hi, Nals, I was trying to post some people with strong native strong blood that my friend gorge estevezhttp://www.centrelink.org/TestimonyC.html, http://www.angelfire.com/ct/taino/jorgesend me by e-mail but I dont know how to post here. do you know how to do it. thank you.
 

guarocuya

*** Sin Bin ***
Aug 30, 2004
17
0
0
Nal0whs said:
Guarocuya, overall the article was good.

The author has this rigid mentality of DR being black or something, but that is out of ignorance more than anything else.

I presented the article to show people a more professional manner of presenting the ever increasing Haitian problem and of bringing light that the DR is not the only place with this problem.

I have heard many Haitians say that they hate Dominicans because we basically protect what is ours. Well, they should also hate Bahamians, Cubans, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Guadalupeans, and Martiniquians. In fact, they should hate themselves if they want to hate the people that are causing them the most harm.

BTW, Guarocuya, thank you for those link. Just a quick question. Where is it? I don't see nothing.

hi, Nals, I was trying to post some people with strong native strong blood that my friend gorge estevez http://www.centrelink.org/TestimonyC.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/taino/jorge send me by e-mail but I dont know how to post here. do you know how to do it. thank you.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Yesterday's Listin D not available.

DRsScarface,

Unfortunately, I can not post the link because yesterday's paper is not available yet in the ediciones anteriores section. I just checked. However, I always keep a copy of good articles from el Listin D in a file for myself which I did. I could email it to you if you like. Please let me know.

-Lesley D

DRsScarface said:
Hey Leslie D, can you post the link to that List?n Diario article.
 

DRsScarface

New member
Feb 26, 2004
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Why

Hey Guarocuya,

Why do you keep insisting on that Dominicans are Indians. We already know that there are people in the DR with some Taino lineage (including myself...since I'm from the cibao and have "asian: eyes) but the truth is that the only thing that is left of Ta?no culture are a few words and a few types of foods. The reason why many people in DR have indian skin is because they are mulatto not because they are Indian. I also don't agree with your comment when you said that we should give visas to ecuadorians, mexicans, peruvians etc. because they are of the same race, religion, culture as we are. Ecuadorians, mexicans, and peruvians are NOT of the same race and culture that we are. One of the only things we have in common is our religion (Roman Catholic.) But for the most part Ecuadorians are native americans or mestizos, peruvians are 90%+ native americans and mexicans are mostly mestizos with about a 10% white/ spanish population. How is this in any way similar to the DR, a country with 73% mulattoes...16% white/spanish and 11% black? And when was the last time you ate a tortilla, taco, or pozole for dinner? And when was the last time your family put some quebradita, vallenato, or grupero music at a family party? If anything, the latin american countries that are most like us in racial composition and culture are Cuba and Puerto Rico...Venezuelan youth also speak like Dominican youth in a way and have many of the same slang terms (since Venezuela is carribean and very close to us). And colombia has some mullatoes but their culture is very deeply native american and spanish. But Mexico....Per? and Ecuador....NO WAY!!!!!!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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We already know that there are people in the DR with some Taino lineage (including myself...since I'm from the cibao and have "asian: eyes) but the truth is that the only thing that is left of Ta?no culture are a few words and a few types of foods.
A few words and a few types of foods? Are you sure its only a few?
Read this article and then lets see if its a few...
http://www.centrelink.org/davidcampos.html

when was the last time you ate a tortilla, taco, or pozole for dinner?
I hope you realize that those foodtypes are based on maize or corn, a very widespread foodstuff that was cultivated in Mexico by the natives for thousands of years. Contrast that to Casave, Yuca, and Batata which was cultivated by the Caribbean native americans.

People need to realize that a Taino was not the same as an Inca, who were not the same as an Aztec. They were not the same physically, culturally, liguistically, or in most other fashions. The only sameness they got is that they are branded under the "Native American" title. But, just how Latin Americans are not all the same, neither were the native americans.

And when was the last time your family put some quebradita, vallenato, or grupero music at a family party?
You do realize that those music forms incorporate European, Native American, and to some extent african elements in them, just like Dominican music. Those particular music are not heard in all regions. Vallenato is not very popular in Mexico and the same goes for Quebradita in Colombia. Merengue is not very popular in Mexico (except at the clubs, I mean what other Latin music evokes more the sense of a latin party), just how Quebradita are not very popular in the DR.


If anything, the latin american countries that are most like us in racial composition and culture are Cuba and Puerto Rico...Venezuelan youth also speak like Dominican youth in a way and have many of the same slang terms (since Venezuela is carribean and very close to us). And colombia has some mullatoes but their culture is very deeply native american and spanish. But Mexico....Per? and Ecuador....NO WAY!!!!!!
Mexico, despite being very Native American, still holds a very strong european sense of being and place. I think Mexico has one of the purest Spanish influences in Latin America, some anthropologist put the DR ahead of Mexico in that respect.

Cuba and Puerto Rico are naturally going to be more like us, because all three islands were among the first to be colonized by Spain and among the last to lose their Spanish rule. As such, the Spanish Caribbean holds the most purest Spanish influences evident in speach and social patterns. For example, you would never notice this until you visit Spain and you come back to the DR. Us, Dominicans, tend to congregate every evening and every Sunday at the central plaza or park in the towns and cities. Family gatherings take place there and usually an entire Sunday after church is spent enjoy the ambiance and participating in activities at the central park or plaza. The same deal goes on in Spain, with alot of similarities with how it happens in the DR.

Also, the late dinner is a very prominent Mediterranean (especially Spain and Italy) custom, and that is very evident in the DR, especially Santo Domingo where bistros and restaurants and cafe's have people eating and drinking well into the nighttime hours. Other similarities between Spain and the DR is the way Dominican youth in particular go out.

Dominica youth usually go out in self chaperoned groups. The guys wear buckets of cologne and slick their hair back, the girls wear a nice outfit and fix their hair as well, and they themselves go out in groups. The guys go around the town checking out the "hot" spots prior to hitting the central park or plaza. In the park they flirt a little bit with the girls, but usually it doesn't amount to much. The guys joke around and are very socially and very touchy, more so than North Americans. In fact, some North Americans might see this touchy deal as a bit on the "gay" side, but in fact, its just another cultural manly trait that has become inept in Dominicans from our Spanish ancestors who had the greatest influence in this country.

In fact, the average Santo Domingo suburb and Dominican town has a provincial Spanish feel to it, the only thing that ruins the moments are the motoconchos raising the noise levels. I'm always amaze by the Spanish similarities that still prevail in the DR. I remember a couple of weeks ago I went to Jarabacoa (it was right before Hurricane Jeanne came for a visit). On my way back I went to Santiago to visit a few family and friends and I went to Moca in Espaillat to visit a few friends who live not in Moca itself, but in a few "fincas" near the town. I stopped in Moca in front of the Catedral Sagrado Corazon de Jesus, which is in the center of town, more or less. There is a small park area there, and while my girlfriend went into a nearby business, I simply began to do something I do alot while on the streets of the DR, I people watch the scenery from my SUV. I was once again, amazed the similar Spanish feeling one gets from a Dominican town. The motion of the place, the tightness of the roads, the small parks, the men sitted in the benches talking (probably about politics), the group of kids hang around, and just the general ambiance. Even the slight wind and the traffic noise (to some extent) evoked memories of my last time I was in Spain or Italy, for that matter.

Also, linguistically there are some words like "Asechar" which are still in use in certain regions of the DR. Asechar is an old Spanish word that is no longer in use in other Spanish speaking countries, including Spain itself! And yet, it is very much in style in the DR. Other words include "no moors, etc."
 
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