Hate, and the Role of a Superpower

[Ken]

What I don't like about Americans is how much they brag.Oh, they are always claiming to have the best everything in the planet:justice system, public schools, fire department, police officers etc. You name it!

What country are you from harold? Do your countrymen believe they have second class schools, second class police and fire departments, second class justice systems, etc.? Are they without pride?

You can't be French. They don't hesitate to tell you they have the best country and language, and laugh at the French spoken by French Canadians.

You can't be German. They know they are superior.

You can't be Chinese. They believe they are the primary race.

In fact, there are a lot of nationalities you can't be. What are you?

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Responsibility

Missing DR,

If I mischaracterized AZB as being Arab when he is of some other middle eastern country, then I stand corrected. But you also mischaracterize my background.

As for Indians, I presume you mean the peoples of India. As for radicals, I presume you mean the Kashmir situation and other Hindu-Moslem strife. (We could go into America's historic treatment of native american "indians", but that would be a topic for a different day.)

That America aided and abetted in the creation of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the 1980s and early 1990s is as well known to be the truth as most of AZB's statements are well known to be biased lies. The Afghanistan/Pakistan/Kashmir situation was clearly America's worst mistake in the post-Cold War era.

For the Russians, the Cold War was essentially over by the mid-1970s. Vietnam and other chess pieces were expensive and Cuba was draining them. The Russians were broke. When Chile's Allende and Nicaragua's Ortega went to Moscow to ask for money, the KGB responded "see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya."

The US either didn't figure this out, or didn't care to figure this out for political reasons. That's why Afghanistan supposedly mattered to the US in 1980. And it was in the name of the Cold War that the Mujahadeen and unsavory characters in Islamabad were supported by the US.

But history changed for the US before the CIA realized it (or, again, cared to realize it). The Russians needed to be considered the enemy for as long as possible. No post-Cold War considerations went into any decision making.

As for India, it was, during the Cold War period, considered to be Soviet-leaning. Accordingly, the US supported Pakistan. To bring this posting back to a Dominican theme for a second, it also supported Trujillo, Balaguer, Somoza, Pinochet, Noriega, etc., for the same reasons - they were, to coin a phrase, "sons of bitches, but are least they're our [the Americans'] sons of bithces."

The US failed to realize the changing world dynamics until it was too late. Then again, if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned every so often.

In any case, I suspect that the US Government secretly favors India in its conflict with Pakistan, but also needs to prop up the Pakistani government (the alternatives are scary).

I would be curious of your thoughts as an Indian or the thoughts of others.

 

[Ken]

I can?t write anymore right now but I wonder does anyone agree that this is the beginning of the end of America?s ultimate power? If nothing else 9/11 was the most powerful wake up call and first step towards it.

I don't agree that is is the beginning of the end of America, nor that it is the first step towards it.

I do agree, however, that it is a wake up call for the US.

With respect to the US and Iraq, I believe that much of the bellicose talk has been part of a strategy to wake up the UN. For years Sadam Hussain has been thumbing his nose at the UN on the matter of inspections, and for years the UN has done little if anything about it. But now there seems to be an increasing willingness on the part of the UN to hold his feet to the fire with respect to "unfettered access" by the inspectors. It will be interesting to see what it does when the matter is brought to a vote, as it is sure to be in the near future. I'm optimistic that this time the UN will take a stand.

Would the matter be coming up to a vote? Would I be optimistic with respect to the outcome had Bush not been focusing on Iraq and its arsenal of weapons of terror? I don't think so.

 

[Escott]

Wow, has this thread given me a different perspective on some of the posters.

AZB... You are a lunatic except I didnt capitolize the L like I should have. Your rants and claims speak all for themselves.

Missing_Dr... AZB is a Muslim albeit not an Arab. He is definately a fanatic in all regards with the exception of the Beeper Girls! LOL

Cleef... I have NEVER, and I repeat NEVER been treated BETTER as an American than I have been treated in the DR. I don't have a clue as to where you teach but it seems that they should replace the teachers if that is the attitude of the folks there. When I got to the DR on Sept. 20th of last year young Dominicans were coming up to me when they found out that I was an American saying "Give me a gun and I will kill those bastards for you".

Harold... What is it that you like? Ah nevermind, probably a useless train of thought.

Porfio... Man you are starting to impress me. Very well thought out and written post. Facts play a big part in impressing me and your post was full of facts in this matter. I will take back what I said to you about being a disgruntled baggage handler! AZB is a Muslim Pakistani, but that really matters not because he is a fanatic that claims that the 9-11 didn't happen and was a conspiracy of the Jews to discredit Muslims. When you meet him he is in his right mind. Just don't talk Religion with him. He is the most intriging Pork eating, beer drinking wacky packy Muslim I have ever met but not a bad person as Rob once pointed out to me once you get to know him.

Mondongo... I have a fat ass and also broad shoulders so I can handle your comments regarding my posterior. Not a problem. Glad to see you post about something that doesn't give the impression that you actually plan on doing something about your usual whining. A nice change!

Ken... I agree with your take.

Bugsey... You can't do anything to provoke an attack on innocent civilians. There is simply no excuse that anyone can even dream about that would give credence to that thought. These same people have no respect for right of others and no ability to tolerate freedom without religious persecution.

I for one think that we should be going into Saudi Arabia and cleaning house there before Iraq. Most of the people involved were Saudis and the goverment supports terror and religous fanatics.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Prozak is Great

Jazzcom,

What nice, sweet things to say about people. You even took back the "disgruntled baggage handler" remark about me. Earlier in the day, you were calling me stupid. I must presume Prozak played a part in the turnabout. I approve of the dosage, but recommend increased frequency.

I agree that there are a lot of interesting perspectives here (all but AZB's).

 

[Escott]

I didn't say that you were stupid earlier in the day. I said what you previously posted was stupid and without basis of fact.

I don't take drugs and hardly even drink. I actually thought you stopped taking your pills to post as coherently as you did.

When you meet AZB he doesn't get into the tirades. I am not kidding, I have knocked heads with him for months but he is pleasant enough in person which was hard to believe.

Regards

 

[Pib]

Escott I almost edited out your comment about AZB. I'll let it stand because you kinda kissed and reconciled further down. Just don't take it any further please. Now you and Porfirio stop making out and telling each other how great you two are and return to the subject matter.

Being a moderator sometimes is no fun... I'd like to join in the big AZB pile on... carry on.

 

[Pavan]

Pib we were just talking how much we are all enjoying this thread on the Chat forum....instead of editing it why don't you sent it to the open forum where it will not bother you....

missing

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Weeeeee're Sorrrrrrrrry

Okay Pib, we'll be nice if you let us stay up late.

Jazzcom, I was merely using Prozak as a metaphor for a mood change. I didn't doubt for a second that you adhere to Nancy Reagan's advice.

As for me, it is not fair to say that my posting get better when I'm off my pills. In fact, you seem to like my postings best when I'm totally sloshed.

To get back on topic, would you agree that the standard remark akin to "yes I disprove of the 9-11 attack, but America should think about how it is viewed in the Arab world," is disgusting?

Of course Americans should think about how they are viewed in the Arab world. But not today, and not in connection with 9-11. To say both in the same sentence is to give the smallest bit of credibility or reason to the 9-11 attack that it does not deserve.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

All I can say is a little bit of information is dangerous. None of us know the story, a few of us are closer than the rest. Hence, I have no opinion on the subject except that I'm not privy to enough facts to be able to intelligently form one. We should bow to our ignorance on these matters.

 

[Keith&Cris]

I'm a Canadian. And regardless of what the "official" poll says, certainly nowhere near 6 out of 10 people I know have ever suggested the US were responsible or even partly responsible for 9/11.
This kind of thinking minimizes the terrible crimes a few insane radicals perpetrated on many innocent people. Destroying innocent people for political reasons is simply inventing an excuse to commit murder. The Americans covet freedom and independance, and they champion freedom and independance for others. And they are willing to fight on behalf of others to help them get it. If the US be the super power of this century, then perhaps we should be greatful. Look at past superpowers, and see if you can find one you would rather have.

 

[Ken]

All I can say is a little bit of information is dangerous. None of us know the story, a few of us are closer than the rest. Hence, I have no opinion on the subject except that I'm not privy to enough facts to be able to intelligently form one. We should bow to our ignorance on these matters.

You had a similar post in the "thoughts on 9/11" thread, but it isn't clear to me what your point is. Are you saying that it is too soon to have an opinion on the legitimacy of hijacking passenger planes and flying them into buildings during working hours?

 

[Paul Thate]

I'm a Canadian. And regardless of what the "official" poll says, certainly nowhere near 6 out of 10 people I know have ever suggested the US were responsible or even partly responsible for 9/11

read http://torontostar.com

U.S. partly to blame for attacks: PM
Sep. 12, 2002. 05:43 AM

The Canadian Prime Minister is saying the same.

this prime minister has still a 60 percent approval rating.and support.

Chretien would not have said this if he did not think the majority of canadians thought the same.

This is real shame on Canadians.

And if he would run for reelection( which he said he will not) they would reelect him.

 

[Hlywud]

Chretien talks about the whole western world, not only the USA. He says greed and the wealth of the western world causes jealousy in many other cultures.
"Power cannot be exercised to the point that it humiliates others."

And on another point.
And as far has re-election I wonder who he would run for because it cetainly would not be his on party, his ratings are not 60% there.

 

[Paul Thate]

To put blame any where else then where it belongs
with that scum who did that unconscionable act is that
you now allow them a reason or worse an excuse.
And there is no excuse for what they did.
Not even when Chretien believes so.
As keith so well said it seems to minimise their crime.
As usual Chretien put his foot again in his mouth
and shamed the canadian people with this stupid remark.
With Chretiens remarks Canadians should not be surprised
that the canadians are not being consulted by the americans
in international afairs.

 

[Pavan]

Paul,

I think there is a term which the White House needs to learn and learn fast..........Street Smart.

If you find yourself in a cage with a gun in your hand and a Bengal Tiger will you wait for the Tiger to kill you or you will kill the Tiger first??

Now another thing happening.....Bush want's to beat up Iraq...If he really wants to do it...become a Nike boy...just do it...why tell someone I am coming to get you and let him get ready?


Another ecominic dragon the US is creating is China. Another 5 years and we will see the US dumping Chinese goods in the Ocean like they did with Japan...

My question is why can't the US leaders think with a straight head...stop it before it becomes too big and starts biting me???

Missing........watching too much CNN!!

 

[mobrouser]

rather than reading and referring to one story in a newspaper, sometimes one needs to consider the whole paper before commenting:


another Toronto Star column

azb might even enjoy this one.

mob

 

[mkohn]

I always thought from a certain look on Bush's face that he needs the approval of those around him. He's lookin' for approval.

I don't think Saddam should be attacked unprovoked. That's the attitude that got us a bad reputation to begin with. Our "my way or the highway" attitude has got to go. There are some drawbacks to the American way. Nobody wants to ask us any more.

People from other cultures have great ideas and customs. I SAY we listen for a while...

mk

 

[debs]

The Canadian Prime Minister is saying the same.

this prime minister has still a 60 percent approval rating.and support.

Chretien would not have said this if he did not think the majority of canadians thought the same.

This is real shame on Canadians.

And if he would run for reelection( which he said he will not) they would reelect him.

Chretien is a blubbering fool and does not speak for the majority of Canadians. Most Canadians cringe whenever he opens his mouth to speak.

He's also well on his way out, so I somehow doubt that the 60% approval rating figure is current.

I just wonder who Ipso-Reid's "random" sample of 1000 Canadians consisted of. I can't think of 6 in 10 Canadians believing that the Americans brought this on themselves. Something is definitely wrong with this statistic.

Also, please do not say that this is a real shame on Canadians. We were the first nation to help out with rescue efforts and we also opened our homes to many stranded travellers on that terrible day and even when Bush snubbed us, we still offered more support than most nations.

And yes, I do believe Canadians are still being consulted by the Americans in international affairs as Bush and Chretien did meet recently to discuss the Iraq situation.

Sorry just had to chime in because I think your perception of Canada is rather distorted.

 

[Escott]

Escott I almost edited out your comment about AZB. I'll let it stand because you kinda kissed and reconciled further down. Just don't take it any further please. Now you and Porfirio stop making out and telling each other how great you two are and return to the subject matter.

Being a moderator sometimes is no fun... I'd like to join in the big AZB pile on... carry on.

I thought I was pretty reasonable considering ya know.

How can you edit my statements and let comments like my fat ass and my drugs pass would be beyond me. At least my statements came from listening to others and not my imagination.

Escott