In Support of the High Court Decision

[Naked_Snake]

Well the Chinese have a problem with a larger influx of males than females in their great experiment. The poor fellas are trying to do everything to get the attention of a female. There are lots of examples where the poor fella has to marry down and drink alcohol every night just to copulate. )))))

Yeah, it all goes down to one very basic fact in this pathriarchal world of ours: Everyone wants a male heir. As a result, female fetuses get aborted by the thousands.

 

[bronzeallspice]

Bronzeallspice.. what exactly is "Dominican Blood" ? Why not call it "Domnican ancestry"? That would make more sense.. or Domnican roots? Seems to me that the Dominicans are descended mostly from immigrants, just like the United Staters.

Also, where is the special prison where the deportees are held? From what I have heard, they are deported with zero paper work. And they are not given any sort of trial or opportunity to even fetch their documentation. I would be pleased to read more about this deporation process.

Simply because I chose to call it Dominican blood even though it may be Dominican ancestry. Many Dominicans do call it sangre Dominicana.


Who said anything about having paperwork or given a trial? Aren't they put in a holding cell(area) or are they just taken from the street and dumped over the border?

 

[delite]

Yeah, it all goes down to one very basic fact in this pathriarchal world of ours: Everyone wants a male heir. As a result, female fetuses get aborted by the thousands.

Sad but true! In some cultures, especially in India, it's the opposite. The families pray for a female so that she can go off and be a maid or a prostitute to support the poverty they're are afflicted with. :-(

 

[centinela]

The same way it is the bank cashier's fault when he receives a fake $100 bill. It is his job to detect fake bills.
If a country is not capable of controlling its own borders, it has to deal with the consequences. You can always punish those who willingly break the laws, but you can't punish those who didn't. The babies certainly didn't do anything wrong. Deport the parents if you want, but you must ensure the well being of the baby.

Why aren't you blaming the Haitian government? After all they are the one who has never put birth control or civic rest in their damn country.

 

[K-Mel]

What you quoted shows there are some restrictions to jus solie. It is not quite like the US law where anyone born in the US is automatically a US citizen without further qualification at all. Which as I stated before should be changed in the US. I could care less what the French do.

Yeah whatever in that case you should learn French because those "restrictions" are not, I have Algerian or west africans friends who left France as young boys and came back in their 20s, they are all French. The Just Soli or Droit Sol applies to everybody like in the US. But you must know better than me who was born in that country...

Now France is not the DR...

 

[LTSteve]

As a nation the DR has a right of determination as to who is a legal citizen. The problem starts in Haiti because many of their citizens are undocumented and then enter the DR illegally. Also the dedicated resources in the DR are limited and being stretched by those who do not pay taxes, do not work or contribute to society but want to be able to take advantage of what the DR gov has to offer. This is a very complicated problem. As in the US with Mexico it is a problem not easily fixed but to ignore it would be a real tradgedy for the Dominican citizens.

LTSTeve

 

[windeguy]

Yeah whatever in that case you should learn French because those "restrictions" are not, I have Algerian or west africans friends who left France as young boys and came back in their 20s, they are all French. The Just Soli or Droit Sol applies to everybody like in the US. But you must know better than me who was born in that country...

Now France is not the DR...

The French law you quoted contains a clause that the person must be in France for a period of 5 years after the age of 11 to be a French citizen. Please read it yourself and correct me if I am wrong on that point. Just being born in the US is automatic citizenship with no further requirements to be in the country from that moment on, nor can US citizenship be rejected when you "come of age", or any other point in time, without going through legal procedures.

On the DR not being France, that is a very good thing.

 

[mountainannie]

If the parents are from two different countries then the laws of those two different countries apply.

Is there a country that denies jus sanguini for children born out of a parent's country?

If the parents do not have documents and the country they arrived in does not accept jus soli, then they are out of luck. Not everything in life works out for the best.

Every country has the right to make up its own laws regarding who it does and does not call a citizen.

well there is a question whether or not Haiti provides citizenship for the children of Haitians born outside of Haiti
Article 11 .. 1987 Constitution.
"Any person born of a Haitian father or Haitian mother who are themselves native-born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality possesses Haitian nationality at the time of birth."


That seems to be both jus solis and jus sangre to me.

 

[windeguy]

well there is a question whether or not Haiti provides citizenship for the children of Haitians born outside of Haiti
Article 11 .. 1987 Constitution.
"Any person born of a Haitian father or Haitian mother who are themselves native-born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality possesses Haitian nationality at the time of birth."


That seems to be both jus solis and jus sangre to me.

What you posted, it seems to me, shows no doubt that a child born of parents where one is Haitian is a Haitian as well.

For more information:

Appendix 23-3 Report of the Law Library of Congress on Haitian Nationality Legislation.

 

[Castle]

Caricom (Caribbean Community Secretariat) released a statement:

STATEMENT ON THE RULING OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

Sadly, this won't stop here. Caricom is a small organization and as such can react in short time. DR might think it's not important, but just remember the bigger (and more important) organizations are probably going to reach the same conclusion. There's still time to stop all the negative consequences. This "we do whatever we want to do" attitude is not only childish, it's also very dangerous. Please, we might agree with the court decision, that's ok, but we need to think about the country and its future.

 

[delite]

I would like to add that one could be adverse to this decision and love the Republic simultaneously, in my case. It's not a zero sum game!

 

[bronzeallspice]

And that is what Dominicans are doing, thinking about the country and the future of the Dominican people.

The DR as a sovereign nation can do what they want to do just like other countries do and
no one condemns them. This is what Dominicans are trying to convey to others, leave us
us to deal with the problem as we must for the well being of the people.

Consequences will happen if nothing is done about it.

 

[windeguy]

Caricom (Caribbean Community Secretariat) released a statement:

STATEMENT ON THE RULING OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

Sadly, this won't stop here. Caricom is a small organization and as such can react in short time. DR might think it's not important, but just remember the bigger (and more important) organizations are probably going to reach the same conclusion. There's still time to stop all the negative consequences. This "we do whatever we want to do" attitude is not only childish, it's also very dangerous. Please, we might agree with the court decision, that's ok, but we need to think about the country and its future.

The Caribbean Community notes with regret that the decision goes against pronouncements of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (ICHR) which has repeatedly called on the Dominican Republic to adopt measures to guarantee the right to nationality in the country and to adapt its immigration laws and practices in accordance with the provisions of the American Convention on Human Rights.

What do you expect will change?

 

[Castle]

Bronzie, retroactive interpretation of a law that affects the lives of thousands of people is not a matter sovereignty, it's a matter of human rights and human rights are universal, with no frontiers.
I agree DR can set whatever rule they want from now on, but they can't apply it retroactively. In fact, I think that would be a great middle point that will allow DR to save face and stop the avalanche of sanctions that is sure to come. The agreement could be something like this:

"All those children born to illegal parents after 2010 are not dominican. Those who were given dominican citizenship won't be stripped of it".

There. Let's move on to the real important things like how are we going to prevent productive dominicans from leaving this beautiful country.

By the way, I subscribe to delite's post. I love DR, but I don't agree with this court decision.

 

[mountainannie]

yes... I go back and forth.. Not enough coffee. It will be the grandchildren.. say in 16 or 18 years, if the mothers are born here, who will have no rights to Haitian citizenship, right? But definitely jus sangre. *Although it is easy to be naturalized Haitian by living there for five years.. just that. until now, you could not have another passport..

So this is indeed a fight over territory.. Since the DR and Haiti have equal populations, Haiti has one third of the island, the DR two thirds, Haiti's territory far more mountainous and stripped of trees and topsoil, and dependent on food imports and international support.

The DR on the other hand is food sufficient, to the point of export. They import 15% of their food but only things that they want, not basic food stuffs. And have a good food export business. Unlike Cuba, for instance. Unlike, really, any other island nation in the region.

So even if these immigrant Haitian women HAD Haitian papers and the children are born here.. the grandchildren will NOT have the rights of Haitian citizenship according to the current constitution. So there is still going to be a problem of statelessness unless the DR's plan includes something for them. Unless, for example, the Haitian Embassy can be convinced to give them birth certificates as Haitian born. Otherwise, they are going to fall under some sort of wierd thing that the President is going to have to figure out in his plan. Which we are waiting to hear.

I think that both Haiti and the DR count about one million in their diasporas but that certainly does not go back 500 years. Haiti is just now implementing dual nationality which may help this situtation somewhat.

But the DR is also going to have to do something with the work visas perhaps... with the "in transit" stuff... Yes, there are plenty of Haitians here who are legal and have their visas,, and lots more who do not. How they are going to clear that up I do not know.

And Haiti is going to have to cooperate with papers for the children born here somehow.

Just as the DR perhaps is going to have to lighten up on the taxes that it charges the Haitians who come to market to buy.. like taxing the customers..

All intertwined, imho.

 

[Castle]

What do you expect will change?

I don't know what to expect. I can only hope.
We humans have this tendency to think that sh!t happens to others, but won't happen to us.
I just don't want this island to give any excuse to those who are always trying to find a way to let everybody know who has the biggest stick.

 

[bronzeallspice]

Bronzie, retroactive interpretation of a law that affects the lives of thousands of people is not a matter sovereignty, it's a matter of human rights and human rights are universal, with no frontiers.
I agree DR can set whatever rule they want from now on, but they can't apply it retroactively. In fact, I think that would be a great middle point that will allow DR to save face and stop the avalanche of sanctions that is sure to come. The agreement could be something like this:





"All those children born to illegal parents after 2010 are not dominican. Those who were given dominican citizenship won't be stripped of it".

There. Let's move on to the real important things like how are we going to prevent productive dominicans from leaving this beautiful country.

By the way, I subscribe to delite's post. I love DR, but I don't agree with this court decision.

Dominicans are sick and tired already of the constant accusations of Haitians insinuating that all of this is because of racism which is absolute BS! Each and every time they pull the race card.



The DR is prepared to do what it must do like I said for the well being of its people. If by doing what it must do sanctions are imposed is because the DR can do without it. I'm sure they will find
other ways to supplement.

It doesn't matter if some do not agree, it will not deter the DR from doing what it must do.

Dominicans are sick and tired of threats.

 

[bronzeallspice]

yes... I go back and forth.. Not enough coffee. It will be the grandchildren.. say in 16 or 18 years, if the mothers are born here, who will have no rights to Haitian citizenship, right? But definitely jus sangre. *Although it is easy to be naturalized Haitian by living there for five years.. just that. until now, you could not have another passport..

So this is indeed a fight over territory.. Since the DR and Haiti have equal populations, Haiti has one third of the island, the DR two thirds, Haiti's territory far more mountainous and stripped of trees and topsoil, and dependent on food imports and international support.

The DR on the other hand is food sufficient, to the point of export. They import 15% of their food but only things that they want, not basic food stuffs. And have a good food export business. Unlike Cuba, for instance. Unlike, really, any other island nation in the region.

So even if these immigrant Haitian women HAD Haitian papers and the children are born here.. the grandchildren will NOT have the rights of Haitian citizenship according to the current constitution. So there is still going to be a problem of statelessness unless the DR's plan includes something for them. Unless, for example, the Haitian Embassy can be convinced to give them birth certificates as Haitian born. Otherwise, they are going to fall under some sort of wierd thing that the President is going to have to figure out in his plan. Which we are waiting to hear.

I think that both Haiti and the DR count about one million in their diasporas but that certainly does not go back 500 years. Haiti is just now implementing dual nationality which may help this situtation somewhat.

But the DR is also going to have to do something with the work visas perhaps... with the "in transit" stuff... Yes, there are plenty of Haitians here who are legal and have their visas,, and lots more who do not. How they are going to clear that up I do not know.

And Haiti is going to have to cooperate with papers for the children born here somehow.

Just as the DR perhaps is going to have to lighten up on the taxes that it charges the Haitians who come to market to buy.. like taxing the customers..

All intertwined, imho.

But the problem is that the Haitian gov't does not want to meet the DR half way. By providing Haitians
with documentation to make the transition easier.

The DR has done all it can for Haitians and now it's time that the DR look after the well being of Dominicans.

Haiti's problems are not the DR's problems. Haiti needs to solve their own problems, enough is enough.

 

[delite]

Again, this was a boneheaded move on the part of the DR. After the earthquake Haiti is supposed to provide papers for people born on Dominican soil? This is a feat in futility.

I still would like to see those thousands of Dominicans amassed on the border because the Haitians refuse to allow Dominicans into their country. This is going to be a human disaster a few hundred miles off the coast of the US. An episode akin to a movie, or a catastrophe, like Rwanda or the Congo.

When you have the attention of the world, it should be your culture: hospitality, beaches, food, music, people, sports, etc. Not thousands of refugees suffering on a border!

No decent country in the world is going to support the DR in this exercise in recklessness. She might win a battle, but eventually, lose the war. I'm calling on cooler sane heads to prevail.

 

[windeguy]

Again, this was a boneheaded move on the part of the DR. After the earthquake Haiti is supposed to provide papers for people born on Dominican soil? This is a feat in futility.

So this becomes a Dominican problem because there was a disaster in Haiti? The "International Community" should be helping Haiti straighten out a Haitian problem. I know, that will never happen.

I still would like to see those thousands of Dominicans amassed on the border because the Haitians refuse to allow Dominicans into their country. This is going to be a human disaster a few hundred miles off the coast of the US. An episode akin to a movie, or a catastrophe, like Rwanda or the Congo.

Why would that ever happen?

No decent country in the world is going to support the DR in this exercise in recklessness. She might win a battle, but eventually, lose the war. I'm calling on cooler sane heads to prevail.

Time will tell on that. I certainly have no idea if any international laws can be enforced against the DR on this decision.