Is there hope for Cabarete? (Investing in Property)

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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The great thing about being a foreigner in the DR is no one expects you to fit in. You can simply be yourself and enjoy what does work rather than complain about what doesn't. A woman who dates a foreigner and then expects them to act like a Dominican is bonkers. Why date someone just looking to get more notches in their belt when you can date someone who's trying to get ahead in the world? With success, the women come looking for you anyway. I think DS should start a straight talk thread on the Men are From Mars forum.

I've done business with folks like DS and I'd rather deal with someone who him who will be blunt and honest than someone who is trying to song and dance me and say what they think I want to hear. There are two types of business folk out there, wimps and a$$holes, and the wimps don't get very far.

PeterinBrat, your post above is absolutely on point. I'm so thankful to see that someone here finally "gets it." Yes, why would Dominican women expect us foreign men to act like their men? The same men who beat them silly? Did you people know that at least 200 Dominican women are killed each year due to domestic abuse? I read about it in a book on the DR I reviewed here on DR1....is that the type of men Dominican women like? Or, do they like a man who refuses to raise his kids, who walks out on them and leave them alone? I'm sorry, but I'm not that type of person. I don't believe in hitting women and I believe in raising my children, so if this is the type of guy these girls here like then I may indeed be in the wrong country.

PeterInBrat, you are right, I'm a great person to do business with. I always do what I say I will do(many people in business don't). If I say things will get done, I will get them done. If I say I will pay someone for a job, I always do. I have people who have done work for me for over 5 years, and I've never, ever, given them any problems getting paid. I always try to be a man of my word. I promised my mother last week that I would call her this past weekend, at a specific hour and time.......I did. I promised her I would send money.........I did. Dominican women have to decide if they want real men or posers. I may not be the most sociable guy in the world, but you know what? I've never been late paying my rent either. I've had my bank account for almost 10 years, and I've only been overdrawn once, and that is because I accidentally moved too much money from one account to another! When it comes to dependability I'm second to none.........but, given all the single mothers here in the DR, I'm beginning to wonder if Dominican women even like dependable men.

Regarding Machiavelli, I don't follow his teachings because I like being ruthless. I follow his teachings because I have to, it is the only way to realistically protect yourself in business and get what you want. Otherwise, as PeterInBrat said you won't get very far. Every time I was too nice to people I got screwed over, Machiavelli taught me to stop being so nice, and my life has been getting better ever since.
 

Olly

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Mar 12, 2007
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Dark Scorpion, Ocean Spar,

I dont think Dominicans are dumb - I fact I think they are very intellegent! In general the business model is to wait until a substantial investment has been made and then to hit the investor with "permit" , "taxes" ,and " restrictions" and stop all work until it is resolved. Just look at the Barack Gold contract as an example.
Until the BIG "C" and the Malteses Man in Cabarete has gone from Cabarete I see no hope there !

OLLY
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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And agreed on Confessions of an Economic Hitman as a good read along with the sequel. Amazing how far back that goes. Anytime you get into extraction for export, it's almost always a bad deal for the local economy. Environmental impact study? WTF is that? When things get tough, they can just up sticks and leave the country.

Holy Crap, you read Perkin's second book, The Secret History of the American Empire? Right on man, right on. Yeah, Perkin's books are amazing, they really opened my eyes. I also purchased and read his third book, Hoodwinked, have you read that? Perkins is one of my favorite authors. Anyway, to stay on the topic of this thread, anyone who has read these books would no why I'm reluctant to invest in the Dominican Republic. This country is being exploited in the manner that Perkins revealed, and that creates certain implications that expats and potential investors must be mindful of.

I totally agree with you on the environmental impact, these foreign corps have no real liability. And that was one of the issues that they mentioned regarding the gold mine in Cotui. In any event, if Dominicans are going to mine gold and damage their environment, they should do it themselves. At least they would have all the gold to themselves, and they would have to figure out a way to deal with the environmental impact. But too allow outsider to come in, mine most of the gold, keep most of it for themselves, AND damage the environment? That..........is absolutely moronic. Anyone who has read Machiavelli knows that the mining company is exploiting the DR, the gobierno is right in the mix with them.

Now......here is what everyone reading this needs to consider. The Dominican people are only going to put up with this type of crap for so long. Eventually, if these foreigner corps and their government overplay their hand, there will be a backlash. There is a quote that I like, it goes like this......if you push a man far enough, sooner or later he will start pushing back. There is a limit to how much exploitation Dominicans will tolerate. If a situation develops in the DR where the people are not getting basic needs, especially food and water, you will see extreme violence, and this violence could be direct at foreigners. This is why I'm wary of investing in a physical business here. I don't know if I want to buy a house, because according to what I've been told here on DR1, houses are hard to resell here after you buy them, and when you factor in the reality that mortgages here require a very large down payment, a wise person has to consider whether the capital would better be invested elsewhere.
 
May 29, 2006
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As for taking over Haiti, then Haitians could live anywhere in the DR, be given rights as workers, and their kids would get education. That wouldn't jive well with how the sugar and construction industries work in the DR.

They might even be given the right to vote in Dominican elections. Since there are almost an equal number of Haitians as Dominicans, I don't think that would fly either. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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Dark Scorpion, Ocean Spar,

I dont think Dominicans are dumb - I fact I think they are very intellegent! In general the business model is to wait until a substantial investment has been made and then to hit the investor with "permit" , "taxes" ,and " restrictions" and stop all work until it is resolved. Just look at the Barack Gold contract as an example.
Until the BIG "C" and the Malteses Man in Cabarete has gone from Cabarete I see no hope there !

OLLY

The Dominican government can only go so far. If it overplays its hand, these foreign corps can resort to more......aggressive forms of persuasion to ensure they get access to the gold. These forms of persuasion range from mildly irritating to very dangerous........read John Perkin's book to find out what they are, I don't want to spell things out here, people should find out the truth for themselves. I will say it like the Ancient Athenians said it, the strong do what they have to do, and the weak accept what they have to accept. The DR really isn't in a position to dictate the terms to many foreign governments nor corporations. Russia and China can dictate terms, because they have the muscle to do so. The DR? Not so much. Might really does make right people.
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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As for taking over Haiti, then Haitians could live anywhere in the DR, be given rights as workers, and their kids would get education. That wouldn't jive well with how the sugar and construction industries work in the DR.

They might even be given the right to vote in Dominican elections. Since there are almost an equal number of Haitians as Dominicans, I don't think that would fly either. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

You do have a point. And I forgot to mention that at one point, Haiti invaded and controlled the DR, meaning the entire island was under Haitian rule. I was reading about this in a history book, and you know what? Haitians made the right move, geopolitical and strategically, they had the right idea. Here is the problem........the Haitians blew it. Anyone who is a student of Robert Greene and his teachings knows why the Haitians lost the DR. The Haitians won the war, they successful carried out the invasion..........but they didn't know how to consolidate it.

Invading a country is only half the battle, you need to control it once the invasion is completed. The Haitians pushed the Dominicans too far, the were too heavy handed in dealing with them. They targeted the Dominican churches and universities, and enacted curfews. Haitians played the game wrong. The Sun Tzu way would have been to win over the Dominicans, allowing them to have their churches and universities, while the Haitians concentrated on controlling the country's finances and armed forces. The Haitians should have focused on consolidating both sides of the island while allowing the Dominicans to be largely left to their own devices........so long as the Haitians controlled the weapons and armed forces. This is how I would have done it. The Haitians made a terrible mistake by trying to force the Dominicans to adopt their ways.....better to let the Dominicans keep their culture while the Haitians maintain control over Hispaniola. This......is the Machiavellian way.

If I were the Haitians I would have even allowed the Dominicans to have their own governors and political representatives, but I would have ensured that Haiti always controlled the entire Island. In other words, Haitians broke the 43rd Law of Power, which is this.........work on the hearts and minds of others. Haitians relied too much on brute force, and eventually it backfired and the Dominicans fought back for their independence. Once Dominicans pushed Haitians out of the Dominican side, they had the momentum. Most military strategists at that point would have advised a Dominican counter invasion into Haiti, knocking out the Haitians while they were weak. This is what I would have. Then as the Dominicans I would have done what the Haitians should have done when they invaded the DR, largely leave Haitians to their own devices so long as the DR controls all the armed forces on the island and the Haitians are disarmed. They would be given rights and power but ultimately I'd ensure that power would rest in Dominican hands, that is if I were the Dominicans.
 
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May 29, 2006
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I expect most ex-pats and posters here have a pretty good grasp of the history between the two countries. Why The Cocks Fight is a good book on the topic along with a section in Jared Diamond's Collapse. Collapse deals mostly with environmental issues, but it does well in contrasting the regimes of the Duvaliers against Trujillo's.
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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I expect most ex-pats and posters here have a pretty good grasp of the history between the two countries. Why The Cocks Fight is a good book on the topic along with a section in Jared Diamond's Collapse. Collapse deals mostly with environmental issues, but it does well in contrasting the regimes of the Duvaliers against Trujillo's.

I think the world is leaving the DR and Haiti behind. Not just the DR and Haiti, but any country that isn't in tune with the information age. DV8 mentioned the benefits of Dominican agriculture, but she missed an important point. The point I was making is that the world is transitioning into a new era, and those who don't adapt to this new age will be left in the dust bin. Guys like the founders of Google and Face Book will be the elite of tomorrow, these men are referred to as being the "Cognitive Elite" in one book I read on the subject. The word cognitive referring to the mind seems to indicate that the future will be dominated by those who can use their minds to adapt to the information age.

A country like the DR which depends on agriculture is actually, in some ways, still stuck in the agrarian age. The world passed the agrarian age a long time ago, and the DR can't even be seen as existing in the Industrial Age, another era that is already fading away. You really have to wonder about a country that needs foreign assistance in mining its own gold, that is pretty pathetic in many ways. The Chinese or Russians, they'd never rely on outsiders to access such valuable minerals, and would develop the technology to extract it themselves, either by stealing technology from the West, or inviting them into the country to assist in the mining while placing heavy demands and restrictions on them. Dominicans don't seem like a very cognitive group to me; given that mankind is transitioning into this era this isn't a good sign for them.

One of the books you mentioned, Why The Cocks Fight, I ordered that the other day and it is on the way here. Can't wait to read it, it is shame they don't have a Kindle edition. I own another book on the DR called The Devil Behind the Mirror, and the picture he paints of the DR is not a pleasant one. The Dominican Republic, according to what author Steven Gregory explained, is not adapting well to globalization, and if the country is not adapting to globalization then it is unlikely to adapt to the information age. Dominicans will need to look far beyond tourism and agriculture to thrive in these new times, but this will take a radical change in mentality and I don't think that is forthcoming anytime soon. This is why I'm apprehensive about investment here, but I will stay for a while and see how things turn out. What did Diamond reveal about the DR in his book Collapse? What were the differences between the Duvalier and Trujillo regimes?
 

Seamonkey

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Oct 6, 2009
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I think the world is leaving the DR and Haiti behind. Not just the DR and Haiti, but any country that isn't in tune with the information age.QUOTE]

The world as in who???? There are more expats moving here every week...from Canada, USA and UK cause they can't afford to live on their pensions back home and also because they have lost faith in the politicians. They choose the DR for many different reasons. Or are you talking about the business world?

Since you are not a social butterfly why would you choose to establish yourself in a spanish country when you know how social the culture is???
 

maurmcgee

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Dec 9, 2005
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Holy crap!!! My post went to hell in a hand basket!!! Came back to read advice and had to wade through a ton of things not related. All I can say is that I pity to death the Chica that gets involved with Dark Scorpion!

Thanks to those who gave advice on the topic.
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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I think the world is leaving the DR and Haiti behind. Not just the DR and Haiti, but any country that isn't in tune with the information age.QUOTE]

The world as in who???? There are more expats moving here every week...from Canada, USA and UK cause they can't afford to live on their pensions back home and also because they have lost faith in the politicians. They choose the DR for many different reasons. Or are you talking about the business world?

Since you are not a social butterfly why would you choose to establish yourself in a spanish country when you know how social the culture is???

You're referring to the expats, but I'm referring to the Dominican people. The expats who come here have it made, so long as they learn the rules of this country, they will enjoy themselves, anyone who comes here with lots of money will be in good shape. The locals on the other hand, don't know what the future holds for them. The Dominican youth lack many of the skills which are needed to thrive in the Information Age, and according to what I read hear on DR1, the Dominican youth in many cases aren't even motivated to do anything. What is the acronym they call it here, nini? No income, no job, I forget the exact name but the Dominican youth aren't really moving forward. Any children I have here will need to be insulated from that stupidity.

I have my own personal agenda for moving to the DR. I'm willing to follow the rules of this country, but being a social butterfly when you're a natural introvert is really unbearable. I only socialize with people I know and like, and there aren't many people that fall under the category. Plus, I don't make friends easily, primarily because I'm suspicious of strangers. Regarding the women, don't know how that will play out. The primary thing I need from a woman is a child, after that she can be discarded if necessary. I would like assistance raising the child, but I'm not going to deal with a woman that isn't on the same page as me, who gets on my nerves and creates disharmony in my life.
 

Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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Holy crap!!! My post went to hell in a hand basket!!! Came back to read advice and had to wade through a ton of things not related. All I can say is that I pity to death the Chica that gets involved with Dark Scorpion!

Thanks to those who gave advice on the topic.

I can't be any worse than these Dominican guys who knock these chicas unconscious and then desert them and their kids, those are the women you should really pity. Speaking of chicas, this is yet another reason I don't want physical assets here in the DR.....I read if you get a divorce, she gets half the assets. Is this true? I read about this one old expat that died and his Dominican wife got the business, I sure hope she gave him a kid(I don't really care, just saying). No chica is getting anything substantial from me until I'm given a healthy child that is mine(will take a DNA test to be sure of that).

You think I'm a bad guy, don't you maurmcgee? You know what, maybe I am. But I haven't been scammed by a single lady since I've been here, and one actually tried. Learn to be a lion and a fox or you will get eaten. What the lion can't do the fox will manage.
 
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Dark_Scorpion

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Aug 13, 2012
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See people........this is what I'm talking about:

Dominican Republic News & Travel Information Service

According to the daily news here on DR1, Osiris de Leon, a geologist, says that the DR is on the brink of a water crisis. You guys can click the news to read the report yourself, but I will copy/paste it here:

"Geologist and engineer Osiris de Leon, the head water researcher at the Inter-American Network of Academies of Science, said yesterday, Monday 11 March that the Dominican Republic is on the brink of a water crisis. He based his statements on the fact that the DR is a small island with a rapidly growing urban population that is increasing the demand for drinking water. However, the flow of surface water in the rivers is being reduced by deforestation and the neglect of the watersheds and environmental pollution from industrial, farming and tourist activities that convert the rivers and streams into sewers.

In addition to these issues, De Leon pointed out that some 50% of the water that is taken into the water systems does not reach the final consumers due to all the leaks in the water pipes and that 20% of the water that does reach the consumers is wasted due to the lack of a culture that places an emphasis on saving water. He pressed for the urgent identification of all of the possible water sources, both surface and underground, because if not, within a few years there could be some unmanageable social situations due to a lack of drinking water. He noted the issues of water in Villa Altagracia, Pedro Brand and Los Alcarrizos due to the high levels of pollution in the Haina River."

So before you guys talk about "investing in the DR" if you were wise you'd carefully assess the situation. If the DR is nearing a water crisis this country may very well become an untenable place for expats. A lack of potable water is a serious problem......to say the least.
 

frank12

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Sep 6, 2011
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Dark Scorpion,

I'm not sure where to start here, but i'll start with some books you've mentioned.

1.) You mentioned George Friedman and some of his books. Here is what one astute reviewer had to say about Mr. Friedman's book, The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century:

"Everyone praises "America's Secret War" for Friedman's in-depth knowledge of both the U.S. military, and 25 years experience in studying Eurasia. However, it is a far leap to predict the next hundred years and expect to be taken seriously by applying strict geopolitical ideology to the world to the absence of any and all other significant factors and historical "twists of fate," as in a rogue nuclear weapon/s?

Either it is of no interest to him, or he has far less area of expertise in Asia itself, but to write off China in one small, vague, chapter is an enormous disservice, completely without any supporting data that by 2020 China will "destabilize." In 2008-9 the entire world banking system "destabilized" to the surprise of many, and yet China's did not, has not; and possesses the largest liquid assets on the planet, of which they have invested heavily in U.S. Treasury bonds. His lack of any mention of the New World's banking was an obvious oversight.

Additionally, his premise that, to summarize, Japan will again expand as it did prior to WWII and will again take over parts of Mainland China is laughable. China has the largest standing military in the world. No, they do not possess much of an navy, but it has more than enough aircraft to do the exact reverse, which is physically invade Japan to put an immediate stop to Japanese aggression. Boots on the ground are quite cheap, and China has lots and lots of boots. And the money to keep them there.

Does Friedman believe Nanking has forgotten? China is an excellent observer of other cultures' mistakes. When the Chinese government converted and moves into a capitalist driven economy, they did not have the problems and horrors Russia had, because they were astute observers.

China does not have a history of aggression toward other countries (if one excludes Tibet), but I live in China, and I have no fear now or in the future that Japan will ever be able to "convince" the Chinese of their need for Chinese materials and labor should be satisfied with a Japanese presence. Not in this century and not in the next.

And, finally, it is as if Africa and India have no import in the next 100 years. He does not even bother to mention them."
Kathryn O'Hehir

2.) You mentioned John Perkins books and three of his books which you have read. I have one right here in front of me that I read 3 years ago,
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man:

Here's what one astute reader had to say about this book:

"For all the hype, this book fails to make the reader want to turn the pages. I labored through the first half and had to put it down. According to his description, I am an economic hit man. In reality, I work with international financial institutions to help third world and lesser developed nations where they need the help most. There is politics involved. There are government snoops interfering, sometimes playing a big role. That's because governments are involved in these transactions. We're helping a nation, not a business or a school or a small community. When governments are involved, politics is involved. Wealthy, industrialized, civilized, educated, literate, GIVING/LENDING nations don't have lending terms dictated to them by often corrupt, fighting, under-developed, fractious, very poorly managed states. If no portion of these funds were returned to the established, able and capable businesses from the lending nations, the incentives to loan would be much diminished, and the help would be much less likely to be received. If 100% of the funds were circulated within the LDC or related LDCs, a much larger % of the funds would be wasted, stolen or mismanaged and the objectives/projects would fail for lack of expertise or ready means to deploy the funds successfully in the intended projects. If the funds go solely to feeding and housing and not changing the aspects of the recipient country's hobbled economy, then there will be no later and better capacity to self-manage or to repay the funds, and again, the funds would therefore not be made available. This Perkins bloke is full of himself and apparently very ignorant of basic economic facts. He is either naive or . . . I don't know what. But, he's nothing special and his book is even less so. LDC's have a long history of defaults because they are the kind of countries that don't already have institutions and methods and tools well established that allow for proper fiscal management. The size of the loans these days, and of recent defaults and bailouts, have not been determined by the World Bank or IMF nearly as much as the demands and burdensome needs and failures and violations of terms and blatant disregard of agreements from these failed or failing economies. If the remedies are harsh, it's because the problems are out of control. Perkins is selling a bill of goods and as a subject matter expert, I am not buying. Other buyers beware and be wary of these claims."
BT Holden

I'm curious as to what you think about these observations?

Thanks, Frank
 
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Considering how little marketing Dominican tourism gets in the US, I think there is still plenty of room for growth on the north coast, esp for budget travelers. Spring Break is coming up in the U.S., and the DR is a HUGE value compared to staying in FL or Cancun~ yet there's hardly any marketing for it. Let's not forget that in most states in the US, the drinking age is still 21. I was looking at flights and you can still get from NYC to POP for under $500 RT for this weekend, taxes and fees incl. There are whole demographics that didn't exist ten years ago. Even ten years ago, the odds were good that if you met an American in Sosua or Cabarete, the odds were far greater that they were there for Peace Corps more than as a tourist.
 
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Wealthy, industrialized, civilized, educated, literate, GIVING/LENDING nations don't have lending terms dictated to them by often corrupt, fighting, under-developed, fractious, very poorly managed states.

Frank, have you read the book? That quote reminds me of that line in The Godfather when Kay says to Michael, "Senators and Presidents don't have men killed." The whole point of these loans is to put the target country into a default state so it can have its resources exploited on the cheap. The term Banana Republic goes back to the United Fruit Company taking over parts or Central America when the local governments wouldn't play ball or roll over at a time when bananas were actually a pretty valuable crop. We did it in Iran(Oil), Guatemala(United Fruit), Chile(Copper), Panama(Canal), Ecuador(Oil and Gas), Brazil(Steel and Fruit), Pre-Castro Cuba(Sugar), Dominican Rep and Haiti(Sugar) and tried to do it in Venezuela(Oil) to oust Chavez. It's also not their money they're lending, but they certainly benefit from having control over the government and where money goes into development. Environmental regulations stopping oil production? Just change the government, because hey, there's a debt to pay off.
 
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And bananas are still part of the equation. In Nicaragua 65% of the men who work in the banana industry are sterile because of chemicals used to combat nematodes. It's been banned in the US of course, but who cares about campesino men being able to have kids when DOW chemical needs to make a profit? About a third of the cost of bananas is for chemicals...

Dow's legacy of poison
 
May 29, 2006
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Regarding Haina and water. One of the worst places in the world to raise a kid. Lead in everything from the water to the dust. Used to be a place where they smelted old car batteries. Lead company left town after they made their money..