Its not my fault; I'm the real victim here

Adrian Bye

Bronze
Jul 7, 2002
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right on mrmike.

language has a huge impact on culture.

eg in china, their numbering system is very simple. they don't say
TEN
ELEVEN
TWELVE
THIRTEEN

they say
TEN
TEN ONE
TEN TWO
TEN THREE
(or something along those lines)

end result? it helps them be better at math because they can process the numbers easier in their heads.
 

Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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Mr. Mike, My friends call me Licenciada in DR and since working on my Masters now they decided to call me Doctora. I love it! LOL - I know to us is a joke, but they are very SERIOUS about the titles in DR.

(BTW - I KNOW a masters is not DOCTORATE - to those that will quickly reply to that reference)
 

Bronxboy

Well-known member
Jul 11, 2007
14,107
595
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Mr. Mike, My friends call me Licenciada in DR and since working on my Masters now they decided to call me Doctora. I love it! LOL - I know to us is a joke, but they are very SERIOUS about the titles in DR.

(BTW - I KNOW a masters is not DOCTORATE - to those that will quickly reply to that reference)

I have some Dominicans and South Americans called me Doctor because I am an accountant. They told me this is the norm to call professionals that. I like it too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

bienamor

Kansas redneck an proud of it
Apr 23, 2004
5,050
458
83
Just another way to try to get a nickel..

Guy trying to help you park your car (who has never driven one), calls you coronel or capitan knowing your not military.
 

M.A.R.

Silver
Feb 18, 2006
3,210
149
63
Mr. Mike, My friends call me Licenciada in DR and since working on my Masters now they decided to call me Doctora. I love it! LOL - I know to us is a joke, but they are very SERIOUS about the titles in DR.

(BTW - I KNOW a masters is not DOCTORATE - to those that will quickly reply to that reference)

They must call you MAESTRA. :glasses:
 

yess

New member
Jun 1, 2008
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LOL the first time my dominican employee called me jefe I thought he was calling me heifer

he saw the look on my face and very quickly explained
 

AlterEgo

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 9, 2009
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South Coast
All the Dominicans who live around our house simply call us Don and Dona, our caretaker and his step-son who helps him call us Patron and Patrona. My husband shrugs it off, he was raised with that, but after all these years I'm still not totally comfortable with it.
 

Berzin

Banned
Nov 17, 2004
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I have had a theory for a long time and still do, that the Spanish language itself is partly designed to deflect responsibility away form oneself and avoid responsibility, this is particularly noticeable in the use of the whole "me gusta" thing that so often confuses English speakers trying to learn Spanish.

You never really say "I like this or that" in Spanish. (though I hear it's theoretically possible)

Instead you say "This or that pleases me"

What does that mean? It means you don't accept responsibility for your own preferences, the onus is on the other person or the object of you admiration or lack thereof. The food, the girl, the house, the car, whatever better get busy and start pleasing you, cause so far you're just not feeling it.

My feeling is, if you don't own your own feelings, you don't own ****.

Spanish is a romance language that did not evolve from English, so your translation of a phrase like "me gusta" into something that connotes lack of personal responsibility is incorrect. No linguist worth his or her salt would be able to defend such a translation of this phrase without getting laughed out of the room.

What you need to focus on is the legacy of Spanish rule in the Western Hemisphere. That will give you a much more profound insight into some of the things you are so clearly having trouble understanding-the shabby organization, the corrupt governance, the lying, dishonesty and evasion of personal responsibility and lack of punctuality that one encounters in everyday life-this has been the legacy of Spanish rule and it is ingrained in varying degrees in every country in Latin America.

And it was their culture expressed via deeds that had this profound effect. It did not germinate from their use of language but is a by-product of their culture. Even if you alter the way "me gusta" is said to connote a direct translation into English (which would not follow the grammatical rules of Spanish, aside from sounding intelligible), it would not alter the evasive nature many Dominicans engage in when articulating speech clearly meant to be evasive.

You and others are correct in your premise that language is more than a means of expression, but your issue seems to stem from not only a lack of cultural understanding but from a misguided intolerance of how Spanish is used to deflect and deceive. Believe me that is not an inherent trait of the language but of the speakers of the language. After reading your post a few times I believe that you are under the misguided notion that Spanish should be spoken as a direct translation of English to reflect and presuppose Anglo attitudes of directness.

And what the hell is up with insisting that others refer to you in the third person until they've earned your trust? In the English speaking world we consider people who insist on being referred to in the third person to be a little insane, and certainly more than a little self-centered.

Again, your problem here is cultural and not linguistic. In Germany, if you want to show disrespect to a person in an intimate setting relating to business or politics, you refer to them in the informal "du", which denotes the person being referred to is either a subordinate or clearly someone not to be respected.

These differences are subtle but strongly imply position, status and respect (or lack thereof). Every language has this.

And since you need at least three good complaints to make a solid rant, since when is "licenciado" a title? Or "engineer" for that matter? What is this desperate need for recognition that makes people want to change their name just because they graduated from college?

I just wanted to prove that my lack of formality is not based on ignorance, but principle
.

The last time there was a financial crisis in the states, I remember vividly a conversation I had with a few of my friends who were in the corporate world. This was during the era of "downsizing", a word meant to deflect the reality of people getting fired. They told me that the average executive would rather take a cut in pay than a demotion in title. That title was their calling card at social events and gatherings, and it made them feel respected and respectable.

Here is another clear example of something that runs across all languages and cultures, but you misunderstand it to be particularly a Dominican trait. Or is it just more upsetting when they engage in it?
 
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MrMike

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Mar 2, 2003
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www.azconatechnologies.com
Spanish is a romance language that did not evolve from English, so your translation of a phrase like "me gusta" into something that connotes lack of personal responsibility is incorrect. No linguist worth his or her salt would be able to defend such a translation of this phrase without getting laughed out of the room.

What you need to focus on is the legacy of Spanish rule in the Western Hemisphere. That will give you a much more profound insight into some of the things you are so clearly having trouble understanding-the shabby organization, the corrupt governance, the lying, dishonesty and evasion of personal responsibility and lack of punctuality that one encounters in everyday life-this has been the legacy of Spanish rule and it is ingrained in varying degrees in every country in Latin America.

And it was their culture expressed via deeds that had this profound effect. It did not germinate from their use of language but is a by-product of their culture. Even if you alter the way "me gusta" is said to connote a direct translation into English (which would not follow the grammatical rules of Spanish, aside from sounding intelligible), it would not alter the evasive nature many Dominicans engage in when articulating speech clearly meant to be evasive.

You and others are correct in your premise that language is more than a means of expression, but your issue seems to stem from not only a lack of cultural understanding but from a misguided intolerance of how Spanish is used to deflect and deceive. Believe me that is not an inherent trait of the language but of the speakers of the language. After reading your post a few times I believe that you are under the misguided notion that Spanish should be spoken as a direct translation of English to reflect and presuppose Anglo attitudes of directness.



Again, your problem here is cultural and not linguistic. In Germany, if you want to show disrespect to a person in an intimate setting relating to business or politics, you refer to them in the informal "du", which denotes the person being referred to is either a subordinate or clearly someone not to be respected.

These differences are subtle but strongly imply position, status and respect (or lack thereof). Every language has this.



The last time there was a financial crisis in the states, I remember vividly a conversation I had with a few of my friends who were in the corporate world. This was during the era of "downsizing", a word meant to deflect the reality of people getting fired. They told me that the average executive would rather take a cut in pay than a demotion in title. That title was their calling card at social events and gatherings, and it made them feel respected and respectable.

Here is another clear example of something that runs across all languages and cultures, but you misunderstand it to be particularly a Dominican trait. Or is it just more upsetting when they engage in it?

You may be correct in ascribing these habits, attitudes and speech patterns to "culture" however, this obviously does not diminish their negative impact on those who embrace them and who insist on perpetuating them.

I also find it natural to assume that we are all responsible for the cultures we choose to embrace, at least as soon as we are old enough to realize that our own is not the only one in existence.

And I think it is hasty of you to assume that because English and Spanish do not share all of the same common roots that direct translation between them is not possible. After all, the Spanish and the English share a continent and the influence of all European languages on each other is impossible to ignore.

It occurs to me that by comparing older English such as you would find in the King James bible and Shakespeare's writing you find sentence structure and grammar much more in keeping with modern Spanish, at least it is more similar to Spanish than modern English.

We even used to have a plural second person pronoun equivalent to "ustedes" without having to resort to using the slang contraction "Y'all"

Why did English change into what it is today? I think it is at least in part because the mindset of the people changed, they progressed, egalitarian values became more the norm (at least on the surface) and having phraseology that denoted superior and inferior people in a sentence wasn't comfortable to use anymore.

Avoiding responsibility for the smallest mistakes began to be rightly seen as immature and sneaky, and the ability to be clear and concise valued rather than seen as rude.

Finally, I don't think you can compare employees choosing a salary reduction over losing their jobs altogether to going out and printing business cards with your name listed as "college graduate John Doe" on them.

But basically, with all of this you are inferring that I am dis-favorably comparing Spanish to English and assuming that English is a superior means of communication.

And you are absolutely correct. I do believe that English is the most important language in the world though I admit I don't have all the reasons why worked out, I am working on that and so far things are falling into place nicely.

On a side note I realize it's unfair to compare the English language as a whole to Spanish as we hear it spoken in the Dominican Republic. Most of the people we interact with on a daily basis in the DR have a fairly poor (or extremely poor) command of the Spanish language, including many college graduates, so a comparison based on that alone is unfair I admit.
 

Bronxboy

Well-known member
Jul 11, 2007
14,107
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The last time there was a financial crisis in the states, I remember vividly a conversation I had with a few of my friends who were in the corporate world. This was during the era of "downsizing", a rather innocuous word meant to deflect the vicious reality of getting fired. In the process of being involved in this type of work they saw that the average executive would rather take a cut in pay than a demotion in title. That title was their calling card at social events and gatherings, and it made them feel respected and respectable.

Again, here is another clear example of something that runs across other languages and cultures, but you misunderstand it to be particularly a Dominican trait.


Personally, you can call me a clerk as long as I get paid what I am worth.
 
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Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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Again with the thought that Dominicans like to be lied to.

Here is another clear example of something that runs across all languages and cultures, but you misunderstand it to be particularly a Dominican trait. Or is it just more upsetting when they engage in it?

Berzin, I beg to differ. Although I agree with some of what you wrote (Jesus, LONG-A$$ post!!) I don?t know any other group of people that go around an answer like Dominicans do. Not only do they NOT answer in a clear and concise way, but many get insulted if you ask too many follow-up questions. They feel you are doubting them and most think YOU are the idiot for asking what should be ?OBVIOUS? to you ? because it is to them.

Does it matter how the power got cut or that there is no water because they messed up? Regardless of the answer, the end result is the same. The worker probably didn?t think it was necessary to acknowledge it is their fault because it should have been obvious to the person asking.

Does it matter how the Clorox messed up the shirt? It is messed up, the lady sees it and makes mental note of not using it again (well, maybe not ? hopefully she wont find it next time, LOL) but she probably feels it is unnecessary to vocalize her confession to it when she is the only one that does the laundry and so it should be obvious?

Many times, regardless of the answer the facts are obvious to them ? although they don?t understand the reasoning behind the question, the point is that the person decided what necessary information for them is and there is no need to question obvious happenings that need no blame or admission to fault.

They rather not say it so that the person doesn?t get mad at THEM ? even if the person will be mad period, at least there?s no finger being pointed directly at them.

There is no admitting to blame or accountability behind answers. It is easier to keep someone waiting or avoiding calls than to tell someone: I am not going with you or I don?t want to this or that or the other for you. Meanwhile, when people like me say it straight up: I don?t feel like it or I am not going, then we are rude and impolite.
 
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Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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Avoiding responsibility for the smallest mistakes began to be rightly seen as immature and sneaky, and the ability to be clear and concise valued rather than seen as rude.

Mr. Mike, this agree with. Unfortunately, not everyone values a direct (but unpopular) answer.
 

bachata

Aprendiz de todo profesional de nada
Aug 18, 2007
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Look the way Hispanic teens are killing the language when they text on the phone or chat online , that is the same that happened to English language when it became the world's commercial language.
To fast that is the problem with people today....

JJ
 

Alyonka

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Jun 3, 2006
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Well, in most cases actions, not words, tell it all. I always pay more attention to what people do, and not to what they say. If you ask someone to change their behavior, and they do - that means they care. If they only agree, say things like "You are so right," "I am so sorry," etc., but continue doing the same thing - that means there is no need to deal with that person because they could not care less.
 

Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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So do you guys think this is a Dominican thing or a language thing?

The answering questions in riddles or non-answers– I believe this is a Dominican thing, not a language thing. Living in the USA we are exposed to so many other nationalities and I don’t see this with anyone else other than Dominicans.

So I don’t believe it has anything to do with language as other Spanish speaking people are not ‘known’ for this, only Dominicans are – I think.

??
 

Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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Well, in most cases actions, not words, tell it all. I always pay more attention to what people do, and not to what they say. If you ask someone to change their behavior, and they do - that means they care. If they only agree, say things like "You are so right," "I am so sorry," etc., but continue doing the same thing - that means there is no need to deal with that person because they could not care less.


Ylonka, I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Actions do speak louder than words. Sometimes people don?t want to say the words, but their actions say it loud and clear. I guess they want you to figure it out but don?t want you to be mad at them immediately or completely. Also leaves room for reasons (excuses) for why it happened the way it did later?