Leonel with Chavez and Fidel

[frank alvarez]

Don't minimize the U.S.'s importance to the DR.

Although Rubirosa and Tordok make good points, I think the U.S.'s importance to the DR cannot be so lightly minimized. 85% of our exports go to the U.S.!
Over 25% of the tourists and business-related travel comes from the U.S. as has already been said. I think we can have cordial relations with all of our neighbors but, never forgetting the fact of how important the good old USA is to us and how we can be badly hurt if we upset the empire.

Most Dominicans do not agree with the aggressive and dominating attitude of the USA throughout history, especially after we have been outright invaded twice and interfered with constantly. But the reality of the world is such that you have to adapt to the circumstances. That's the way it is.

 

[Ricardo900]

I think the U.S.'s importance to the DR cannot be so lightly minimized. 85% of our exports go to the U.S.!
Over 25% of the tourists and business-related travel comes from the U.S. as has already been said.

It's going to be interesting to see how those figures in Tourism & Export is going to change when Cuba opens up to the US public.
The DR should get prepared.

 

[Tordok]

...... The DR should not put the US on it's heels to turn around ever...............Fernandez should be tiptoeing though those tulips and NOT shoving anything up the butt of the US. That will NOT be a great political move for him. I believe he should be dealing to get cheap oil. Why not? .............Getting on the Castro/Chevez political bandwagon no matter what the oil costs would be suicidal for the DR in my opinion.
Escott

Hi Escott,
Why should the DR submit to the ALL or NOTHING, WHITE or BLACK, US vs. THEM mindset of the current US administration? Fernandez has not insulted the US. He has exercised his legitimate role as a democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation to seek out deals that favor his country. Not suicidal at all, actually a way to find how to keep oil flowing at more favorable prices to his poor nation.

The DR is a partner and ally of the US (not its colony) and this relationship should indeed continue to grow and diversify, but the US is not the sole arbiter of the Dominican destiny. It is arrogant and dangerous for big countries to invade others that conveniently have oil (Iraq) but then deny a small nation like the DR to peacefully seek out favorable deals for oil with regional friends (like Venezuela) that happens not to be best friends with one of its other friends (the USA).

The US itself already imports 15% of its oil from Venezuela. The US should find -PEACEFUL!- ways to resolve its issues with Venezuela and Cuba as a separate matter from its relations with the DR. If it were to punish the DR for this oil dealings, then in should act accordingly and boycott Spain, the UK, Russia, China and whoever else has invested in Cuban hotels and other industries.

This whole argument of the US intimidating the DR based on this one issue alone is pathetic. That is what is impractical and hypocritical. The US has recently gotten into alienating more and more friends by accusing them of all kinds of things without proof and solely as the result of the serious case of national paranoia and collective post-traumatic stress disorder stemming from the 9-11 attacks. Rather than courting its friends for help it si being pushy and inappropriately demanding. Even if they are small economic potatoes like the DR is to the US, it should be recognized to be its own country, free to associate at various levels with various nations.

- Tordok

 

[Chris]

I think you summed up the issue very nicely Tordok. Just somehow, I don't think it works so neatly like that in real life. But, it should work like that.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

The US may not be the DR's best friend but the US is the DR's most important friend and not by a little but by a lot.

Yes, Scott, we've had a few discussions about this. I think here, though, you're confusing the words "important" and "friend". That the US is the DR's largest trading partner overall and that the DR is inextricably tied to the US economically and socially is indisputable. So the word "important" fits. But "friend"? Really, we could spend hours on that one. (Ironically, the word "friend", I think, best applies to the relationship between Cuba and Venezuela right now. Venezuela gets almost nothing from Cuba. The relationship is based much more on political affinity.)

For a competent Dominican president, oil most certainly rivals DR-US relations in importance from a political and public policy perspective. Look at all of the feathers of America's "friends" that Bush is willing to ruffle for oil.

Do some of the posters here really think that it is in the DR's best interest to continue to be the US' indentured servant forever - even as Europe, China and Brazil grow in importance?

BTW, Israel has met with the Palestinians. Japan and South Korea with the North Koreans. Italy always dealt with Lybia. France deals with anyone. It is in their best interests to do so. The world is a stage.

 

[Escott]

Hi Escott,
Why should the DR submit to the ALL or NOTHING, WHITE or BLACK, US vs. THEM mindset of the current US administration? Fernandez has not insulted the US. He has exercised his legitimate role as a democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation to seek out deals that favor his country. Not suicidal at all, actually a way to find how to keep oil flowing at more favorable prices to his poor nation.

Do you know it is an all or nothing, Black or White, US vs Them situation or are you just trying to put "YOUR" spin on things? Who said it was like that other than YOU?

You see, I have no clue and you seem to know so much more than what is available to the rest of us.

Suicidal would be to piss off the US by insulting that big elephant that is sitting right above the DR. Cuba is a pimple on the Arse of that Elephant and nothing more.

The DR would be remiss if it put itself anywhere near Cuba's ideals.

The DR is a partner and ally of the US (not its colony) and this relationship should indeed continue to grow and diversify, but the US is not the sole arbiter of the Dominican destiny. It is arrogant and dangerous for big countries to invade others that conveniently have oil (Iraq) but then deny a small nation like the DR to peacefully seek out favorable deals for oil with regional friends (like Venezuela) that happens not to be best friends with one of its other friends (the USA).

Actually the DR almost became a part of the US at one time but that is neither here nor there. Your knowledge of politics is severly lacking if you think the US invaded Iraq for Oil. That BS never washed. If the Iraqi oil became the sole possession of the US it wouldn't pay for half of the money expended already in 25 years. Can you talk some facts when you get the chance?

Do you have any info to back up a thing here? Did the US even say a word to the DR about Venezuela? Point me in that direction so I can see your facts.

The US itself already imports 15% of its oil from Venezuela. The US should find -PEACEFUL!- ways to resolve its issues with Venezuela and Cuba as a separate matter from its relations with the DR. If it were to punish the DR for this oil dealings, then in should act accordingly and boycott Spain, the UK, Russia, China and whoever else has invested in Cuban hotels and other industries.

You make jumps in faith that doesn't exist. Your whole message is a non issue because there is not one part that is based on any facts available that I know of. Where was it said that the US is punishing the DR for its oil dealings other than that voice that talks to you? Where are you getting this information from?

This whole argument of the US intimidating the DR based on this one issue alone is pathetic. That is what is impractical and hypocritical. The US has recently gotten into alienating more and more friends by accusing them of all kinds of things without proof and solely as the result of the serious case of national paranoia and collective post-traumatic stress disorder stemming from the 9-11 attacks. Rather than courting its friends for help it si being pushy and inappropriately demanding. Even if they are small economic potatoes like the DR is to the US, it should be recognized to be its own country, free to associate at various levels with various nations.

- Tordok

There is NO arguement or anything that would lead you to believe that the US is intimidating the DR. So far it is all in your head unless you can point me to some evidence that states so.

The US has done more for Europe than Europe has done for the US. If you want to call France and Germany friends I would start laughing. The US did NOT inappropiately demand a thing of Europe. The US defended and rebuilt Europe but the Europeans have no memory of anything other than "What are you going to do for me today". The Euro went up against the Dollar and now watch it fall. There is more than one way to skin a cat or a rat as the case may be.

You make statements looking for an arguement but they are all NON ISSUES because the only place they exist is in YOUR mind.

Escott

 

[Escott]

It's going to be interesting to see how those figures in Tourism & Export is going to change when Cuba opens up to the US public.
The DR should get prepared.

These people say that tourism from the US is minimal at best. Take away the Dominican York type of people and it very well may be minimal. Cuba is also a non issue. Every other country goes there except the US. What can one country to to another when the rest of the world partakes?

Cuba won't be buying DR exports anytime soon more than they are now.

Escott

 

[Escott]

I think you summed up the issue very nicely Tordok. Just somehow, I don't think it works so neatly like that in real life. But, it should work like that.

You also have issues with the US that make your opinions to me at least of minimal importance. Your head is filled with dislike and you never think very clearly where the US is involved. You talk mostly from passion and not fact that I can see.

He just stated opinions as facts that don't exist anywhere I have seen until he points out where the dead bodies are. If you point me to this evidence that backs up what he says I would love to see it. I will then form opinions based on those facts.

Escott

 

[rellosk]

It's going to be interesting to see how those figures in Tourism & Export is going to change when Cuba opens up to the US public.
The DR should get prepared.

Regarding tourism, a good indication would be to compare how many Canadians go to Cuba vs. the number that visit the DR. Does anyone know the figures?

 

[AnnaC]

Stats Canada says more Canadians went to Cuba in 2004 than the DR but not by much.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050527/d050527a.htm

 

[Tordok]

Do you know it is an all or nothing, Black or White, US vs Them situation or are you just trying to put "YOUR" spin on things? Who said it was like that other than YOU?

You see, I have no clue and you seem to know so much more than what is available to the rest of us.

Suicidal would be to piss off the US by insulting that big elephant that is sitting right above the DR. Cuba is a pimple on the Arse of that Elephant and nothing more.

The DR would be remiss if it put itself anywhere near Cuba's ideals.

Actually the DR almost became a part of the US at one time but that is neither here nor there. Your knowledge of politics is severly lacking if you think the US invaded Iraq for Oil. That BS never washed. If the Iraqi oil became the sole possession of the US it wouldn't pay for half of the money expended already in 25 years. Can you talk some facts when you get the chance?

Do you have any info to back up a thing here? Did the US even say a word to the DR about Venezuela? Point me in that direction so I can see your facts.

You make jumps in faith that doesn't exist. Your whole message is a non issue because there is not one part that is based on any facts available that I know of. Where was it said that the US is punishing the DR for its oil dealings other than that voice that talks to you? Where are you getting this information from?

There is NO arguement or anything that would lead you to believe that the US is intimidating the DR. So far it is all in your head unless you can point me to some evidence that states so.

The US has done more for Europe than Europe has done for the US. If you want to call France and Germany friends I would start laughing. The US did NOT inappropiately demand a thing of Europe. The US defended and rebuilt Europe but the Europeans have no memory of anything other than "What are you going to do for me today". The Euro went up against the Dollar and now watch it fall. There is more than one way to skin a cat or a rat as the case may be.

You make statements looking for an arguement but they are all NON ISSUES because the only place they exist is in YOUR mind.

Escott

Escott,
Your personal type of response is quite predictable. It is precisely your kind of discourse that motivated me to post.

You are correct, my statements do reflect what's on my mind. I'm glad that it is different from what's in yours. You question my implication that the US may act as a bully, but then you go right ahead and boast about the mighty mistake it would be for Cuba or the DR in any way offend the US:

"Suicidal would be to piss off the US by insulting that big elephant that is sitting right above the DR. Cuba is a pimple on the Arse of that Elephant and nothing more."

I'm not going to list for you those facts that are so obvious from world events in the last few years to explain my observations about the aggressive, confrontational style of the current US administration around the world.

I did not indicate that the US has expressed plans to punish the DR based on this oil deal, I indeed was speculating based on opinions rendered on this board, not by the White House or the State Dept., but by people like you.
It was a rethorical question based on speculations by others, like this example of yourself in a previous post:

"I know you have issues with the US but do NOT minimalize the effects of even insulting the US by the government of the DR. That price will be way too high to pay for Dominicans and others that live there.".

How else is one to interpret your views but as what they clearly are: insulting taunts and bullying. I'm so glad that YOU, and not me, seem to think that your spin of things is the only valid one. I leave it at this. I salute and bid you farewell; no point in entering this pointless debate with you.

- Tordok

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Did the US even say a word to the DR about Venezuela? Point me in that direction so I can see your facts...You make jumps in faith that doesn't exist. Your whole message is a non issue because there is not one part that is based on any facts available that I know of. Where was it said that the US is punishing the DR for its oil dealings other than that voice that talks to you? Where are you getting this information from?...There is NO arguement or anything that would lead you to believe that the US is intimidating the DR. So far it is all in your head unless you can point me to some evidence that states so.

Otto Reich gave a speech that seemed almost directed at the DR. He called the DR "leftist" and said that countries that give in to the oil deals of Chavez and Castro (the "Axis of Evil" of the Western Hemispher, as he called them) would "have to pay a steep price". I don't know, Scott ... what do YOU think he meant by that?

Yes, the US did rebuild Europe. And it was done for all the right reasons, which included both a desire to what was morally "right" and for economic self interest. The "old world" economy needed to be rebuilt to create trading partners for the US - markets for US goods. It was a "win-win". But Latin America has been treated differently. Policy wise, the US has not treated Latin America like a trading partner but, rather, like an indentured provider of raw materials and agricultural products. Maybe that will change now with DR-CAFTA, but I'm suspicious of the details of it and sceptical that US policy has gone back to caring about what is morally "right" or away from exploitation in this hemisphere.

Of course, the US has also done a lot for the DR - much more good than Canada or Europe. But, at the end of the day, Scott, how many non-Americans can you find who would call the US the DR's "best friend"?

I am under the impression that your tone on this is more based on some general anti-American bias that you have seen from the posters than on anything specifically written in the thread. If you mean to provide advice that the DR will lose economically or politically by spreading its wings on this particular matter, then I think that should be stated and supported.

BTW, I agree with you that the Iraq invasion was, at most, only tangently about oil. But I don't know if that fact makes it more justifiable or less justifiable.

 

[daddy1]

In Defense of escott..let me ask you guys something!!

I will reply to this nonsense because U.S. bashing coming from a Dominican's mouth is disturbing to me! you say that D.R. and the U.S. are not friends...let me see for example...what American institution provides more oppurtuinity for Domincan young boys to become millionares over night? and what private schools in D.R. provide the oppurtunity for young dominican boys and girls to excel and receive American Scholarships? or what country allowed the name of one of your four father's to be displayed in there most famous city? How about this one...does the U.S. have an embargo against the D.R. for Human right's violations? take a good look at Cuba..that's how D.R. would look if the Big Eagle was not your friend!

When people bad mouth the U.S. it's almost mind boogling :tired: especially in the latin community...especially this community I don't know who teaches you this, nor where your fustration comes from, I mean the only thing left for American's to do for Dominican's is to open up it's borders so that every Dominican can come and go as they please! would you consider the U.S. your friend then... or would you still be Judas and take advantage of all our innovative inventions, ideas, or jobs to return to D.R. and tell of how bad of a friend we were to you and your people ...the point we were making is that Fernandez has to consider not mingling with persons that are potential threats to democracy.. these men are tyrants what part of that don't you understand.

D.R. without a fact is a sovereign nation..no arguments there but..it is a democratic sovereignty..needing more of the U.S.'s resources and innovations to secure there very survival, other then Chavez oil! and Castro's friendship..remember what country Dominican's prefer to make there dreams come true I doubt it's Cuba or Venezuela...

 

[MerengueDutchie]

1. Japan is not "communist".
2. The US is NOT the DR's "best friend". (Let's end it at that. A debate on history of interference, military intervention and economic and financial exploitation would take this thread in the wrong direction.)
3. The US government did not label the DR a "failed state". A "think tank" did. However, former State Department Special Envoy for Latin America, Otto Reich, referred to the DR government as "leftist" - a far more meaningful term under the circumstances.
4. A relatively small minority of tourists to the DR come from the US, and Canadian and European governments and tourists don't care what Fernandez does with Chavez and Castro.
5. Talk is cheap. Fernandez has said the DR will join Petrocaribe. Those words cost nothing. Now it's time to see what the US offers to pull the DR back away from Chavez. As long as the US remembers that you "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", it will work out in Fernandez' favor. The country will come out ahead over the "suck up" attitude of his predecessors as long as Bush doesn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed and order an invasion (again!).
6. If Fernandez ends up sacrificing some US tourists (excluding New York Dominicans, who will come no matter what) in exchange for cheap and plentyful oil, he will have absolutely made the right decision from a political and public policy perspective.

Absolutely spot on analysis.. esp point 2 and 6.. the Dr is in this game for its own interest and should look to them.. if it finds those interest not being served in its relationship with the US.. why not see what others have to offer?

To Escott and others... I do not believe that seeking out a good oil deal is insulting to the US in desparate situations like this.. especially when no viable alternative presents itself..and although the US does do a lot of good things around the world and certainly in the DR it is my impression this is also done from a paternalistic point of view...we will lead and others will follow..

I think it is precisely this paternalistic attitude that is resented by the people of Latin America.. the feeling of not being accepted as at least intellectual equals.... read some of the writings of Jose Martin on this.. he had some interesting observations..

As to what Europe ever did for the US.. I can be very short.. without Europe there would be no US.. first settlers were coming over from Europe.. then independence gained with the help of one European power (France; which provided this help for its own reasons, which were only partially idealistic) over another (England)... after that trading partner and cross-polenation of political, cultural and economic ideas.. we still stand together on most issues and ideologies.. share a common background and language.. it is true that the US helped to re-build Europe after WW2.. partially on ideology and shared history and partially out of self-interest.. it may be all to easy to forget the stand US and Europe had together against the Red Tide in the old continent..

And I for one would still like to say that countries like the UK and Holland are true friends of the US, as each according to its own means helps and supports the US initiatives around the globe.. yes we sent combat troops to the Gulf, Afghanistan and now Iraq.. yes fought alongside the US in Yugoslavia.. so in that respect the US still has some friends around the globe..

 

[Magic Christian]

Sending the US Conflicting Messages

I think that the Dr could use some new 'friends' and not necessarily of the US variety. We here inthe US prey on small nations like the DR.
Bush has no oil to help the DR. Chavez Does. Energy is a bone crusher for the DR.
Chavez is opening Latin America to non-traditional trade and cultural alliances which can have a profoundly positive effect on their economies. The US largly ignores Latin America hoping they will remain compliant. That must end for the process begun by Bolivar, Sucre, O'Higgins and the liberators to succeed.
Castro has his own agenda. He acts as a foil to US agression in Latin America. As such he is the unspoken conscience of many Latinos. He's no trip to the beach nor is Chavez but the reality of the Bush imperialist machine suggests the need for a new Latino political alliance that the Bolivarians suggest.
I think Leonel is a statesman of some import. To me he represents a moderate yet progressive approach to current internal and external issues. He speaks clearly to me and certainly represents the DR on the world stage in a very positive way.
The Dr specifically and Latin America in general will do well to get out from under the shadow of US economic and cultural domination. The Dr has done well especially with tourism, energy and food processing by courting the Euros.
What lately has the US done for the DR?
True many Dominicans live in the US but it is well known up here that Dominicans are routinely marginalized in the US.
I say: you go Leonel. He is a major improvement over the corrupt and venal Mejia and his gang of thugs.
As to DR corruption: compare the corruption in the DR even Baninter with that of the US viz a viz World Com, Enron, the current administration lies regarding WMD, Rove's outing of a CIA agent, drug corruption from the Fed to the local level - what really is the difference between US and DR corruption.
Perhaps the US should be on that endangered country list.
Otherwise I agree with everything the poster has written :>
je/Sarasota/usa

These men are clearly are not in any good standings with the U.S. and yes! he should care..and realize that Dominican's travel and live in U.S., and not in Venezuela or Cuba, Hooray for his oil contract with Chavez! but at what price, there is already a buzz in Washington about that meeting... this can send the U.S. gov't conflicting messages.


these are the enemies of the biggest friend he has as a nation, this move could have brung him problems for approval of the DRCAFTA...Cuba is still under an embargo, and not even communist Japan interfere with U.S. santions on Castro..the issue is..

Democratic Government's should not be mingling with dictators in laughter in public nor in private, these countries are under surveliance for human right's violations, and extra curricular activities...bad move on leonel's part!

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Magic Cristian,

I liked your post. Petrocaribe certainly alters geopolitical paradigms. Fernandez is working both sides of the street - which, I think, is a better than simply being the US lacky on everything.

But I would not understate the importance of the relationship between the DR and the US. It is, and will continue to be, more important the relationship with Europe, at least. And the two countries are inextricably tied through population shifts as well.

I also would not call Dominican Americans "marginalized". They do not appear to me to be less well treated than other immigrant groups of similar stature (and I have first hand knowledge - my family, for example - of how Dominican immigrants are treated). To slight the treatment of immigrants to the US might indicate some irrational anti-American bias. Frankly, no other major country has treated immigrants better.

Finally, to know both countries is to know that the levels of corruption really cannot be compared. The US will soon be entering a period of political moral crisis - a natural result of too much power being too concentrated in people who are too arrogant for too long. But this is nothing compared to the institutional corruption at all levels of the DR's barely existing institutions, not to mention a basic difference in mindset over levels of permissible corruption in a society.

 

[J D Sauser]

The DR is not the 51st State.

The DR is an independent and free country and it is, in my opinion, among it's head of state's duties to maintain political and diplomatic as well as potential business ties with most any country (the US too) they choose to and espcecially with it's neighboring countries, who share similar situations, cultures and problems.
Sure, it is a country which receives or hopes to receive countinuing help from developed and economicaly important countries, including the US.
But I would never expect such a country to ignore any oportunities it may have with it's surrounding countries and states just for the sake of immage pampering, especially to the current US regime.
To give an example: Spain, who's been labeled as an ally and thus been granted the privelege to find itself upgraded to New European country just for agreeing to send about 1500 of it's people (of which only about 500 really went) into harms way to find and destroy mass destruction weapons nobody could ever find in Irak, maintains relations with Cuba, does business with Cuba, has a regular schedule of visits with ol' Fidel and has and keeps on opposing publicly (UN) the US led embargo on Cuba. Well, maybe you are right, Spain is not (yet ) categorised as a developing country... but it's still a business partner with so many important countries... inlcuding the US and could substancially be hurt by the wrath of the the current... OK... administration.

Resuming, I believe that as long the current DR presidency does not make a 180 Deg turn and start aplauding the policies of Chavez and Fidel or even worse, adopt them fully, it's keeping up of lifely business and diplomatic relations is absolutely legimitate and a sound business behaviour as long they directly benefit the interests of the Republic.

Just opinions (I am not trying to make enemies and I can live with others having different points of view and/or opinions)
Thanks!... J-D.

 

[RHM]

As to DR corruption: compare the corruption in the DR even Baninter with that of the US viz a viz World Com, Enron, the current administration lies regarding WMD, Rove's outing of a CIA agent, drug corruption from the Fed to the local level - what really is the difference between US and DR corruption.
Perhaps the US should be on that endangered country list.
[/QUOTE]

We have tons of corruption in the US too, you are absolutely correct. The difference is that somewhere in between the US managed to become the most powerful country in the world and that is what keeps it off "the list". I love the DR, I live here but the argument that the two are similar doesn't pass the smell test.

The corruption in the US is not as rampant as here. Look at law enforcement. The last thing I would ever do is try to bribe a cop in the US. You'd just be asking for a club over the head. Here they get offended if you don't offer them money.

This whole "failed state" thing is a waste of time. The DR politicians are overly sensitive because they hate any comparison to Haiti and personally I don't blame them.

But I also think that Leonel's comments lately have been hilarious. He is too smart to actually believe that any of the "powers that be" in the world are contemplating an occupation or intervention of the DR. He is merely playing up to some of the xenophobia in the country. It's an easy way to get a few points on the popularity poll. Patriotism always sells.

If the international community didn't intervene in Rwanda/Sudan and a plethora of other countries why the hell would they come here? It's all political BS.

Scandall

 

[Rick Snyder]

Devil made me do it!

It is interesting to read the posts concerning the corporate corruption in the ongoing Enron investigation, of which World Com was a part, and the incongruous corruption that is ongoing here within the DR. I will concur that in both places it is in fact corruption but I will controvert that the stealing of funds invested by the people in the investment market does not equal the stealing of funds of the government directly.

Concernind the Enron investigation, to date, there have been:
34 criminal cahrges brought forth.
16 guilty pleas entered.
2 are in prison.
14 are awaiting sentencing.
5 jury convictions.
1 acquittal.
1 overturned conviction.
11 others charged.
5 presently on trial.
3 fighting extradition.
On 14 July 05 Christopher Calger, a former Enron vice president , pleaded guilty to charges. And it?s not over yet.

Here in the DR you have such cases as the Plan Renove, the green houses, the salvaging of the Baninter, Bancredito and Banco Mercantil banks and others which were a direct thief of funds from the government. Of all these cases how many are being or will be prosecuted, how many people will end up in jail and how much of the money stolen will be given back to the government? In the USA when corruption is discovered it is prosecuted, people serve time in jail and fines are paid. Here in the DR?

 

[RHM]

That's interesting and very true. The same went for the Abu Gharib soldiers. They have already (except one) been prosecuted and ALL have been sent to jail. Some for as long as ten years.

The problem with prosecuting corruption here is that everyone has something on everyone. Leonel and Hipolito have had many closed door meetings together. Hipolito will never be charged with ANYTHING. He has too much dirt on everyone else. And while Leonel is clearly better, he is not a saint.

So the cycle keeps on going and going and going.....


Scandall