Leonel with Chavez and Fidel

[Gabriela]

Lessons of history

From what I read in the news section of DR1, Fernandez is concerned about what the U.S. is up to. He is an educated man, who knows the lessons of history. The U.S., over and over, has preferred strong men, even dictators, who maintain the economic infrastructure for international business. Juan Bosch did not fit this profile, nor did Salvador Allende. Mexico and the DR have the U.S. worried. Since the U.S. cannot afford any more military intrusions, it will just have to make sure that the government in the DR is fully controlled from Washington. When Castro dies, and Haiti blows, the DR will be the key to controlling the Caribbean basin. I think it was Marshall McLuhan (the great futurist) who explained
I don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a goldfish.
Remember you guys are down there in the bowl. And even those of you working for the Americans covertly or openly are getting your "intelligence" from government sources.
la mariposa,
Gabriela

 

[RHM]

From what I read in the news section of DR1, Fernandez is concerned about what the U.S. is up to. He is an educated man, who knows the lessons of history. The U.S., over and over, has preferred strong men, even dictators, who maintain the economic infrastructure for international business. Juan Bosch did not fit this profile, nor did Salvador Allende. Mexico and the DR have the U.S. worried. Since the U.S. cannot afford any more military intrusions, it will just have to make sure that the government in the DR is fully controlled from Washington. When Castro dies, and Haiti blows, the DR will be the key to controlling the Caribbean basin. I think it was Marshall McLuhan (the great futurist) who explained
I don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a goldfish.
Remember you guys are down there in the bowl. And even those of you working for the Americans covertly or openly are getting your "intelligence" from government sources.
la mariposa,
Gabriela

Actually, he has never mentioned the US. He only referred to "international forces". He's not dumb enough to bite the hand that feeds him. If the US pulled its aid to the DR he'd be in deep doo doo. We don't even need to mention remittances. Leonel is not stupid.

All of the papers today have a quote from Hipolito that he thinks Leonel is being a bit over dramatic (exageration). For once, Hipolito is right.

It is very true that in the past the US has supported dictators (Batista, Trujillo etc.). But remember that was 30 years ago when the US had the cold war to worry about. Dictators (right or wrong) provided stability.

To think that anyone, the US or UN or EU are even somewhat contemplating any kind of "action" against the DR is absurd. Leonel knows it. He's just boosting his support numbers with the Patriots. Nothing wrong with that.

Scandall

 

[frank alvarez]

We need to stay vigilant.

To think that anyone, the US or UN or EU are even somewhat contemplating any kind of "action" against the DR is absurd. Leonel knows it. He's just boosting his support numbers with the Patriots. Nothing wrong with that. Scandall

I don't think anyone is suggesting any OVERT action by the US, UN or EU, however, inaction or COVERT action cannot be written off so easily. It is common knowledge, and the proof is there, that the U.S., France and Canada have been interested in 'assisting' Haiti, via the U.N., and in the end have done nothing but make matters worse. This is to be expected when big nations, with different cultural beliefs, interfere and try to 'adapt' the small nation to the big nation's wants/needs.

Most Dominicans believe that these powers think that the Haitian solution may be best leaving it up to the Dominicans, either allowing a continuation of the accelerated Haitian migration to the DR, or with the Dominicans taking a more active role in said solution. Right now, most Dominican government services in cities and towns around the border are completely taken up by Haitians, all illegal aliens, to say nothing of the rest of the country which is literally 'invaded' by Haitians. Wherever you go, even the most remote places, you will find plenty of Haitians around. We need to stay vigilant.

 

[asopao]

U.S is the best friend

U.S is DR's best friend, no doubt about. Leonel, by hanging around with these guys, It will wake the suspicions that Leonel and his administration are Commie-oriented like their mentor, Juan Bosch. During Leonel's first term, Fidel visited DR for the first time since the 1959 revolution. That angered Washington back then. It didn't look good that a Bosch disciple acting as head of state is inviting this Communist figure. You can talk whatever you want about " Jiang Zemin visiting the U.S" etc, but remember, U.S is the boss, the one with the largest economy in the world and the nuclear missile heads.

U.S has given immigrant visas to thousands and thousand of Dominicans, more than any other Latin America country I believe. Without the remmitances of Dominicans working in the U.S, you can be sure that DR would look like Haiti or maybe worse. US didn't screwed up DR, DR screwed up itself with its highly institutionalized corruption , take a look at Taiwan, it is much smaller in territory with a much higher population density,as is the world's 14th largest economy. DR has benefited alot with the relationship with the US. It is shocking that some Dominicans talk garbage about U.S, these people are probably making a living from a bodega in New Jersey.


DR maybe doesn't have much choice but to take Chavez's oil, hell, DR needs to survive somehow. If the US doesn't provide that oil, who is going to? But Leonel doesn't need to be taking pictures together with Fidel, take Fidel out of this equation and the U.S wouldn't look DR much as a " traitor". Washington can understand that " If we don't give them the oil, they don't have a choice but to take it from the cretin Chavez".
I hope Leonel doesn't commit the stupidiy of flooding DR with Cuban doctors like Chavez has done in Venezuela.

 

[DesiArnez6]

Leonel did the right thing

YEah for once i do agree with him We need oil, if Venezuela will make us a deal, then we need to defend our own interests first, not the U.S.'s But just to make a simple point, I don't believe that the US is as relevant anymore, if the Euro stays above, andrebounds again as i believe will happen, Europe would be a feasable economic alternative, and the was the US has been isolating itself politically, i would not be surprised if Europe took over as the dominating force. I am sure many others would finally be happy to be able to tel the US to back off without as many consequences. If the US doesnt like it, then make agreements with europe and say to the US, "tough". The US is too vulnerable politically to take futher preemptive actions I believe, at least for now.

As for the post way above, Fidel and Chavez are not both dictators, just Fidel is, Chavez was rightly elected and is very, very different. All of those in the wealthier economic circles as well as the US feel they have to demonize hime because he might just show the world an example of a government who takes care of its people through democratic socialism, with freedom (unlike that of Cuba) and the reason the US hates it so much is it cant punish Venezuela because their wealth from oil reserves, or else they would have already done to Venezuela what they did to Cuba. Cuba is not poor because of Castro, Cuba is poor because of economic sanctions. I do not however condone his leadership as the cubans are definitely not a free people. Venezuela is, you are allowed to vote, there is more than one party, you are allowed to protest. It is good to see a president who finally sticks up for workers rights, and has seen the havoc and inequalities that the privatization of industries can unleash on society.

And who else cares really besides the US, europe doesnt, as far as I know, the Netherlands are Cuba's number 1 trading partner. and most of south america is very sympathetic to Chavez, especially Brazil, Uruguay, and now many in Argentina. These are countries who were the US's "friends" but saw they backlash of really only being used.

The US is not even as relevent when it comes to immigration as someone posted above. Recently many dominicans have been heading to Spain instead, many of which through Venezuela, and also many of which end up staying in Venezuela., this makes those countries increasingly relevant in dominican politic

 

[bob saunders]

Quote:
Cuba is not poor because of Castro, Cuba is poor because of economic sanctions. I do not however condone his leadership as the cubans are definitely not a free people. Venezuela is, you are allowed to vote, there is more than one party, you are allowed to protest. It is good to see a president who finally sticks up for workers rights, and has seen the havoc and inequalities that the privatization of industries can unleash on society. UnQuote

There no economic sanctions of Cuba other than the USA. Castro/Cuba is free to trade/buy with every country but the US, so Castro and his party are completely responsible for the failed Cuban Economy. If you protest in Venezuela against Chavez you get shot or beaten by his thugs, get more informed dude.

 

[DesiArnez6]

ok

I appreciate your criticism, if you have any suggestions to help me keep better informed they are welcome I do try to stay on top of things, though these are some sources I found to reputable that i believe somewhat refute what you have said. The European Union has also had sanctions as well as the US according to Deutsche Welle World (DW Berlin) though lifted for now temporarily, it no doubt also affected Cuba's economy

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1474428,00.html

And as far as I know, the Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act introduced by Sen. Jesse Helms and Rep. Dan Burton also subjects third countries, firms and individuals trading with Cuba to possible penalties, prompting the concern of the EU as in the following resolutions of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly - European Union
http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc97/edoc7881.htm

http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/TA97/eres1135.htm

I am sure people on both sides have been victimized by each other in the Chavez fiasco, yet what interests me is this New York Times Article posted in news section of John Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies; which apparently shows that Chavez was indeed rightly elected, the polls supported it, and that the opposition originally tried many illegal means to overthrow him including an attempted coup, indeed it seems that the real corruption lies within opposing parties who lost the election and will do anything to get rid of Chavez, not the other way around. Tho the opposition does seem to have complete support of the media, which makes it that much more striking as to why the public would still be mostly pro-chavez. The media usually has a great deal of influence on their population, unless of course venezuelan media is in conflict with reality

New York Times:
http://www.sais-jhu.edu/pubaffairs/PDF/roett080804.pdf

So it seems that DR could potentially put themselves at risk in dealing with cuba according to current US legislation, but if sometimes your own country's immediate needs must come first before you friends desires, even if it could potentially lead to risk down the road, depending on the risk involved, sometimes it is worth it. With DR's blackout situation and rising crude oil price I see no other practical choice

Just a side note, if I am not mistaken, the United States supported Batista during the Cuban Revolution, thus rejecting any and all agreements or assistance to Castro from day 1, thus forcing him to ask for agreements with the Soviet Union since they did choose to help, solidifying Castro's political style. The US missed a golden opportunity to assist Castro in building a free society, yet when he asked for theyre help, he was shunned and turned to the russians. So none of this should really be a shock. Once again I would appreciate any further info on the matter, knowledge is power

 

[bob saunders]

The reason Chavez has stayed in power has more to do with the impoverishment of the people due to the previous corrupt goverments - a problem that Chavez has not solved, as his goverment is much more corrupt than the previous ones. The thing is that in Venezuela's recent history, governments have made a point of keeping the people poorly educated, as educated people would never elect such leaders.(Politicians in the DR have acted simular) Chavez has played to the people's desperation, but continued to follow the previous' governments policy of disinformation and poor education. As the majority of the people are poor, he has used the PRD policy of throwing parties, giving the poor zinc....etc. Promising land reform...etc. With all that oil money he should have been able to provide each child with a great education and full bellies, but he is more interested in consolidating his power and see's himself a modern Simon Bolivar. The DR needs to be very careful dealing with Chavez.
To further your education and see another point of view http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/

 

[T.O.N.Y]

I wonder why the U.S would hate to see a new Bolivarian type goverment. Is it cause only then the U.S would be forced to deal with Latin American countries as an equal force?

 

[Texas Bill]

Mr. DR!

Who cares about what the US thinks

They already think that DR is a top human rights violator and have labeled us as a failed state........Now, tell me if that was not a big blow to LF's face as well as to all the dominican people.

For your information, the periodical that published that article on the DR being a "Failed State" is not part of the US Government. Nor is the organization that investigates "Human Rights" violations!

Get your facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth, amigo. It's extemporaneous remarks like yours that keep the pot boiling! But then, I imagine you realize that and for that reason you make such statements.

Texas Bill

 

[Texas Bill]

Porfi---

1. Japan is not "communist".
2. The US is NOT the DR's "best friend". (Let's end it at that. A debate on history of interference, military intervention and economic and financial exploitation would take this thread in the wrong direction.)
3. The US government did not label the DR a "failed state". A "think tank" did. However, former State Department Special Envoy for Latin America, Otto Reich, referred to the DR government as "leftist" - a far more meaningful term under the circumstances.
4. A relatively small minority of tourists to the DR come from the US, and Canadian and European governments and tourists don't care what Fernandez does with Chavez and Castro.
5. Talk is cheap. Fernandez has said the DR will join Petrocaribe. Those words cost nothing. Now it's time to see what the US offers to pull the DR back away from Chavez. As long as the US remembers that you "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", it will work out in Fernandez' favor. The country will come out ahead over the "suck up" attitude of his predecessors as long as Bush doesn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed and order an invasion (again!).
6. If Fernandez ends up sacrificing some US tourists (excluding New York Dominicans, who will come no matter what) in exchange for cheap and plentyful oil, he will have absolutely made the right decision from a political and public policy perspective.

I agree with you 100%!! (for a change, huh??).

Leonel is the head of government and his decisions about with whom to have political intercourse are his and his alone. If he feels that amicable relationships with Chavez and Castro will not harm his country's international (read that,US) standing, then more power to him.
I think he would be wise to continue the relationship on a cautionary basis, however.

The DR has a "populist" leaning which is not exactly communist but is definately socialist in nature. Through this philosophy, they have dug themselves a hole from which it will take a great deal of effort to extract themselves. The GNP just isn't sufficient to support such a venture.
I don't say that in any derogatory sense, merely an observation.

Texas Bill

 

[mondongo]

Leonel & Chavez & Fidel.....which one does not belong?
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Leonel, of course. While he may be socializing (pun intended) with the other two socialists....the vast majority of Leonel's economic policies have been in lock step with the Multi-national Orgs& Countries....Leonel has screwd the poor in the DR....

 

[Texas Bill]

With the fallout of recent events-------

I am reminded of that infamous statement by the be-headed Queen of France-------"Let them eat cake" , which was the leftover bread trimmings from the bakeries of the day.

Texas Bill

 

[gardito]

Although Rubirosa and Tordok make good points, I think the U.S.'s importance to the DR cannot be so lightly minimized. 85% of our exports go to the U.S.!
Over 25% of the tourists and business-related travel comes from the U.S. as has already been said. I think we can have cordial relations with all of our neighbors but, never forgetting the fact of how important the good old USA is to us and how we can be badly hurt if we upset the empire.

Most Dominicans do not agree with the aggressive and dominating attitude of the USA throughout history, especially after we have been outright invaded twice and interfered with constantly. But the reality of the world is such that you have to adapt to the circumstances. That's the way it is.

Can we say "yessah mastah" ? I knew we could ! That's the same kind of thinking that has us (PR) in a non-entity status within the world community... E.

 

[bienamor]

Your own fault

Can we say "yessah mastah" ? I knew we could ! That's the same kind of thinking that has us (PR) in a non-entity status within the world community... E.

every 2 to 4 years you vote on the same subject
a. independence
b. statehood
c. statusquo

C. always wins. nuff said.