Metro defenders - answer these questions please

[macocael]

If the subsidy of the OMSA system costs the govt 80 million pesos monthly, and I take your word for it, then what will the subsidy for the metro cost? surely more, even if only proportionally so? I am not following the logic in that last statement, which may be because of its brevity. Spell it out. Also I would like more information on why the OMSA subsidy is what it is, and how thatcompares with other govt expenditures, and whether in fact there are remedies.

I do think that modern systems can in fact save money in the long run, but I havent seen that demonstrated, even theoretically here yet. I would like to see it. Meanwhile, as you yourself argued, there will inevitably be cost overruns and it is not at all certain we can get the necessary loan on attractive terms. Pardon me, but Dominican governments, as Bernardo Vega just pointed out in a recent editorial, do not have a good record of securing loans on reasonable terms.

In fact, that is one reason the electric supply is in such trouble. It will not be fixed in the near future, according to the electric companies, in part because previous loans secured to upgrade and maintain the system were so disadvantageous to the nation that we are going to have a very hard time paying them back.

But even this is not in itself so surprising or worrisome to me. I am still waiting to hear what NALS has to say about the points i raised previously, because the information so far has helped to clear up some interesting points. NALS?

Btw, Se?or Jimenez, I apologise right here for anthing I may have said that offended you, but DONT YOU EVER WRITE ME ANOTHER PM LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST SENT, YOU UNDERSTAND ME? THAT BULLY BOY **** DOESNT CUT IT. GROW UP.

 

[Se?or_Jimenez]

It is typical of posters on this board to say BS on a public forum, then get confronted by it PRIVATELY, and then let the world know of your machismo.

I will no longer post on this BS website as you can't get any relavent information about DR anyway.

Have fun as it is obvious that this crap is your life.

 

[macocael]

Ha! Bye bye jimenez-pingu, good riddance. we will await your next incarnation here.

 

[NALs]

I will be posting more on this this evening, I am under time constraints at the moment. However, I think Fausto Adames does a great job in answering many of the questions many DR1ers continue to have of this great project. For the time being read this and later I'll post.

"METRO SANTO DOMINGO, ?un pasaje al futuro?

Fausto Adames



Son muchas las voces que se han opuesto a la construcci?n de un tranv?a soterrado llamado el Metro de Santo Domingo, como tambi?n innumerables fueron los ciudadanos que se opusieron, en su oportunidad, a la construcci?n de los elevados y t?neles erigidos en la avenida 27 de Febrero y John F. Kennedy, que tanto han descongestionado las principales arterias de la capital.

A pesar de que no se han difundido informes al respecto, habr?a que analizar cu?nto se han ahorrado en tiempo, combustible y en horas laborables, los conductores, empresarios y capitalinos que utilizan a diario estas v?as, para desplazarse a sus centros de trabajo, estudios y hogares.

No obstante, uno de los planteamientos m?s coherentes en contra del Metro, claro est?, ha sido el del senador por la provincia donde, de ser aprobada, se construir?a esta monumental obra.

El senador del partido oficialista, licenciado Jos? Tom?s P?rez, afirm? recientemente que, en vez de construir el Metro, estos recursos deber?an utilizarse en la reubicaci?n de las familias que viven en las riberas de los r?os Ozama e Isabela, para recuperar el ambicioso proyecto de Rescate de estas orillas (el famoso y engavetado plan RESURE) dise?ado por el Consejo Nacional de Asuntos Urbanos (CONAU) y construir en esta zona, las mil veces postergada Avenida Ecol?gica.

P?rez entiende que este proyecto ser?a de mayor prioridad, puesto que con el mismo se relanzar?a el turismo citadino, el cual se encuentra de capa ca?da por el deterioro que ha sufrido la ciudad en los ?ltimos a?os, especialmente por la contaminaci?n ambiental que hay en la zona y los desperdicios que se desprenden de estas riberas y que irremediablemente van a parar al Malec?n.

Sin embargo, lo cierto es que uno de los mayores defensores del Metro es el propio Presidente de la Rep?blica, doctor Leonel Fern?ndez Reyna, quien, de acuerdo con las informaciones obtenidas por esta secci?n, en reuniones sostenidas con funcionarios ligados a la Secretar?a de Obras P?blicas, ha manifestado su deseo de construir un tranv?a en la capital, que solucione, de una vez por todas, el problema del transporte p?blico de los capitalinos.

En c?rculos oficialistas se comenta que ?Leonel Fern?ndez quiere, sobre todo, pasar a la historia como uno de los presidentes dominicanos que, con grandes proyectos, haya contribuido m?s a la soluci?n de los grandes problemas nacionales?.

De hecho, un grupo de ingenieros consultados para este trabajo afirman que ?es cierto que la obra es muy ambiciosa, como tambi?n es imposible que se pague en el tiempo que ha dicho el gerente del proyecto, ingeniero Diandino Pe?a?.

?Sin embargo, debido a la falta de planificaci?n urban?stica y al caos actual que rige el transporte p?blico, una obra de esta magnitud ser?a necesaria para reorganizar y encauzar un sistema de transporte p?blico viable y m?s eficiente, y al mismo tiempo, menos costoso para el Estado?.

Estos ingenieros plantearon que ser?a m?s factible la construcci?n de este tranv?a, que ponerse a redise?ar el tr?nsito con las mejoras, expansiones de calles y avenidas, elevados y t?neles, y m?s que todo, las expropiaciones de terrenos que el Estado deber?a hacer para redise?ar el sistema vial de la ciudad.

Tambi?n, los expertos admiten que la ciudad capital carece de buenos sistemas de drenaje pluvial y sanitario y que la construcci?n del metro ser?a una gran oportunidad para mejorar esta realidad.

HABLA EL GERENTE

El gerente general del Metro, Diandino Pe?a, es de los que piensan que ?despu?s de mas de 40 a?os, con todas las medidas institucionales ejecutadas por los gobiernos que hemos tenido, y con el uso de cerca de US$700 millones, no se ha podido evitar que la situaci?n del transporte en la ciudad de Santo Domingo, haya ido deterior?ndose, en desmedro de la calidad de vida del usuario del mismo?.

?Por consiguiente, se impone hacer un ejercicio serio en pos de instalar un sistema de transporte masivo, que garantice los niveles de calidad de vida que la gente merece y necesita?.

Seg?n sus datos, el Metro de Santo Domingo tendr? un beneficio social de US$376 millones en los primeros 5 a?os de operaci?n, que est?n cuantificados en ahorro de los usuarios del transporte p?blico por tener tarifas m?s bajas, en tiempo de viaje y en desahogo de las v?as superficiales, entre otros.

Esos beneficios ser?an mayor a los US$326.69 millones que se invertir?n en el primer tramo del tren, que recorrer? desde el puente Jacinto B. Peynado hasta el Centro de los H?roes.

DETALLES T?CNICOS DE LA OBRA

La primera etapa del Metro de Santo Domingo comenzar? en el tramo del puente Jacinto B. Peynado y La Feria, porque se determin?, a trav?s de un estudio de origen y destino, que por ese espacio se encuentra el 55% de los destinos de la ciudad y es el punto por donde se traslada el mayor n?mero de usuarios del transporte p?blico.

La opci?n del Metro de Santo Domingo fue escogida luego de hacerse evaluaciones de otros tipos de soluciones viales, como autobuses en carriles y calzadas exclusivas, tranv?as, monorrieles y otros.

En estas evaluaciones de car?cter t?cnico las otras opciones no eran posibles, porque hipotecaban la futura ampliaci?n vial del corredor M?ximo G?mez, que es el ?nico que comunica el Norte de la ciudad con el ?rea central, lo cual representa un gran riesgo para el desarrollo futuro de la zona Norte.

Del mismo modo, la evaluaci?n t?cnica de una soluci?n elevada, tipo monorriel en este corredor, indica que un sistema elevado no es factible en este corredor, en parte, porque tambi?n limitar?a las ampliaciones futuras de la v?a, pero tambi?n, porque a partir de la avenida 27 de Febrero, la pendiente del corredor hace imposible la inserci?n de un sistema elevado y los radios de curvatura que se requieren para llevar el sistema hasta La Feria, implicar?an grandes expropiaciones. Por tanto, t?cnicamente se descart? esta opci?n.

Este an?lisis llev? a la Oficina del Metro a estudiar una soluci?n soterrada (tipo Metro). Para ello, inici? los estudios de suelos, que permitieran garantizar la posibilidad t?cnica de insertar en el subsuelo, un sistema de transporte r?pido.

Los experticios t?cnicos incluyen: estudios de transporte, ingenier?a b?sica de obras civiles, de equipos electromec?nicos y de arquitectura, entre otros.

El proyecto de la l?nea La Isabela - La Feria presenta las siguientes caracter?sticas: Longitud total: 9.94 kil?metros (10 kmts.) Estaciones: 11. Para un tiempo de viaje de 13 minutos. Intervalo entre trenes: 3 minutos. Flota total: 11 trenes.

AHORRO

Un peat?n que recorra todo el tramo de la primera l?nea del metro se ahorrar?a entre RD$30 y RD$35 por d?a, ya que el recorrido en ese moderno transporte costar? entre RD$5 y RD$10. Generalmente una persona que recorre ese tramo, ida y vuelta, en carros p?blicos gasta RD$40 por d?a.

Asimismo, el Metro de Santo Domingo economizar? a cada usuario 24 minutos por viaje, es decir pr?cticamente una hora por d?a. Eso se transfiere en una mejor calidad de vida para los usuarios y un mejor aprovechamiento del tiempo en los centros productivos.

ENERG?A DEL METRO

El sistema estar? compuesto por los siguientes subsistemas industriales y de obras civiles: sistema integral que se subdivide a su vez en patios y talleres, equipos rodantes, v?a f?rrea, electrificaci?n, telecomunicaciones, se?alizaci?n, ventilaci?n, control de accesos y sistema contra incendio. Asimismo, el Metro tendr? un sistema exclusivo de generaci?n de energ?a colocado al pie del r?o Isabela, en las proximidades del puente de Villa Mella.

COSTOS

Los costos estimados de esta inversi?n son los siguientes: sistema integral US$125.35 millones, t?neles US$99.46 millones, estaciones US$83.36 millones, servidumbres US$13.13 millones. As?, la inversi?n general totalizar?a US$326.69 millones.

Para la obtenci?n de estos recursos est? previsto un pr?stamo externo con contrapartida local y plazos de 10 a 12 a?os.

Este pr?stamo tendr?a per?odos de gracia durante el per?odo de construcci?n de la obra y tasas no mayores del 5% (entre el 4% y 5%).

Tambi?n se han iniciado los estudios de factibilidad econ?mica que indican de manera preliminar que la tarifa por pasajero podr?a estar situada entre RD$5 y RD$10.

Los beneficios sociales han sido cuantificados para los primeros 5 a?os de operaci?n en US$376.8 millones. Estos beneficios incluyen los ahorros de los usuarios de transporte p?blico por tarifas m?s bajas, ahorros en tiempo de viaje y desahogo de las v?as superficiales, entre otros. "

Source:http://www.cielonaranja.com/metroefaustoadames.htm

-NALs

 

[Se?or_Jimenez]

Ha! Bye bye jimenez-pingu, good riddance. we will await your next incarnation here.

That just proves my point. Americans annoy and isolate Foreigners even on the internet. Of course they're too stupid and oblivious to acknowledge it.

Nals,

You know most of the people who lash out the negativity can't find any information on their own because they're too ignorant to learn Spanish. This is the most oxymoronic website ever. A Dominican related site where over 95% of the threads are in English.

 

[gardito]

Look to PR for answers

Hi to all. While reading these posts, I was reminded by the public opinion wars about the metro here in PR. These same objections were presented here but the metro was built anyway. It was ?fast-tracked? through govt, built with a huge cost-overrun, and later was subjected to state and federal investigations as to who stole what and who bribed whom.

It?s funny that while still under construction, a govt study found that this project would never have a return on investment (would not pay itself) even running on full capacity.

Still, the metro is up and running. It networks with the original bus syst to take people where they need to go in San Juan. As for time savings riding the metro, it takes me less time to reach places in my car than it does on the metro. The one advantage is PARKING. I don?t have to search for parking space the few times I use the metro. I usually use it to go to events in the evening as it has stations right outside the Coliseo de PR, and to Bayamon?s sport complex, so it?s convenient for me.

I write this hoping that someone will look into how it has affected traffic patterns, mass transit usage and the risk/reward of the syst and apply it to SD

E.


Oh BTW, PR and RD are not so diff from each other, E.

 

[Se?or_Jimenez]

gardito,

That's a great observation. In the report to congress, many comparisons where made to the Puerto Rican metro. Except that this will be cheaper and will be built in less time. You should give more information from a rider's prespective so people can understand the long term convinance and stop with the BS.

 

[sucar]

"Oh BTW, PR and RD are not so diff from each other, E."

Easy on that one! PR did do a large number of studies before even beginning to consider construction. Also as i understand it, PR is under US law- building codes are enforced! And last time I checked, PR was not a self-governing developing country with mayor issues of future growth.
And although geographically and culturally similar i think in terms of Metro DR should not use PR as a basis of comparison. Almost any system in US or europe seems like an unfair comparison. I think systems such as Mexico City, Curitiba, Lima and even India could help shed light on what the positive impacts of a Metro/ hybrid transportation system could lead to.

 

[macocael]

First of NALs thanks for taking the time to do all this work, it is very generous of you particularly when you are laboring under time constraints, and I found the post very interesting. I will comment on various points once I get the time myself.

Gardito, aside from the caveat posted by sucar, I also found your comments interesting too, because that was my experience with the NYC subway, as I commented in an earlier post! But can you tell us more about ridership patterns or whether people are satisfied there that in fact it has improved transit? Is it heavily used?

 

[Rick Snyder]

I put my post in the wrong thread so here it is again;

Amtrak was created by an act of Congress in October 1970. It started as a federally chartered corporation authorized to operate virtually all intercity passenger routes in the United States. At the time, promising to be a profit-making enterprise, it was given $40 million in initial funding, along with $100 million in loan guarantees. As of 2002, that’s the last figures I can find, Amtrak has received nearly $25 billion in taxpayer dollars, with no prospect in sight of ever breaking even.

In 2005 New York’s Mass Transit Authority, (MTA), raked in about $3.5 billion in mass-transit fares, plus $1.1 billion from its bridge-and-tunnel tolls. That $4.6 billion covers less than half the agency’s $9.4 billion in expenses. So dedicated taxes has to provide a $2 billion dump into the MTA’s coffers each year. State and city subsidies add another $600 million, along with the bridge-and-tunnel profits. And it’s still not enough

The subway in Puerto Rico;
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/na...rssnyt&emc=rss
This is a subway system that was half paid for by the US Government through the (TEA-21) program.

According to my research only 2 metros in the world make money and they are the Tokyo Metro and the Hong Kong Metro. Everything that I have found says that ALL others are losing money every year.

Suicides and crime are two unfortunate facts of life for subway operators and as crime in the DR is on the increase I would suspect that the metro will play an active role in its increase. Compounded with the inefficiency of the DR police the DR Metro will be a criminals dream come true.

Regardless of what the report that Nal’s submitted says, I think that the DR would be better served by a Light Rail Transit System above ground. It can be built at half the price, or better, and if established correctly it can be used in conjunction with the present motors, gua guas and taxis.

My 2 cents worth.

Rick

 

[macocael]

Rick, that is worth lots more than 2 cents. Excellent post. I should have thought of the Amtrak and MTA. Funny enough, when I lived in NYC people were always saying the same things about those systems and their waste of money as we are now hearing on this board. The construction of the NY subway system was itself, of course, full of scandalous theft of funds and so on.

Amtrak's problems are somewhat different from the MTA, in that it is usually argued that the reason it doesnt make money is that Americans prefer to drive. But that is sort of my point here: I suspect that the people using their cars here are not going to give them up for the metro, because cars are valued for more than mere transportation. So when we talk about the advantage of the new system we are forced to consider only those people who go about in publicos and have no cars themselves. I dont think this concho route is going to disappear, and I dont think that even if it did we would see significant improvement in the overall traffic along this route.

 

[NALs]

I put my post in the wrong thread so here it is again;

Amtrak was created by an act of Congress in October 1970. It started as a federally chartered corporation authorized to operate virtually all intercity passenger routes in the United States. At the time, promising to be a profit-making enterprise, it was given $40 million in initial funding, along with $100 million in loan guarantees. As of 2002, that?s the last figures I can find, Amtrak has received nearly $25 billion in taxpayer dollars, with no prospect in sight of ever breaking even.

In 2005 New York?s Mass Transit Authority, (MTA), raked in about $3.5 billion in mass-transit fares, plus $1.1 billion from its bridge-and-tunnel tolls. That $4.6 billion covers less than half the agency?s $9.4 billion in expenses. So dedicated taxes has to provide a $2 billion dump into the MTA?s coffers each year. State and city subsidies add another $600 million, along with the bridge-and-tunnel profits. And it?s still not enough

The subway in Puerto Rico;
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/na...rssnyt&emc=rss
This is a subway system that was half paid for by the US Government through the (TEA-21) program.

According to my research only 2 metros in the world make money and they are the Tokyo Metro and the Hong Kong Metro. Everything that I have found says that ALL others are losing money every year.

Suicides and crime are two unfortunate facts of life for subway operators and as crime in the DR is on the increase I would suspect that the metro will play an active role in its increase. Compounded with the inefficiency of the DR police the DR Metro will be a criminals dream come true.

Regardless of what the report that Nal?s submitted says, I think that the DR would be better served by a Light Rail Transit System above ground. It can be built at half the price, or better, and if established correctly it can be used in conjunction with the present motors, gua guas and taxis.

My 2 cents worth.

Rick

Good post Rick.

However, there are two things that a light rail system can't compete with a metro system and those things are speed and number of passengers per trip.

A light rail system moves at much slower speeds and carries much less people than a single metro line. In addition, a light rail system will have to be built into the current street grid, which could pose a problem if the need arises in the future for expanding any given avenue or street.

I have to say, however, a light rail does sounds appealing.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Gardito, aside from the caveat posted by sucar, I also found your comments interesting too, because that was my experience with the NYC subway, as I commented in an earlier post! But can you tell us more about ridership patterns or whether people are satisfied there that in fact it has improved transit? Is it heavily used?

One aspect of the San Juan metro is that it has become an incentive for further development and rehabilitation along the route such system covers.

There is a sizable number of new infrastructural projects being proposed by the private sector. Such projects includes offices, residences, retail, etc. All of this will translate into more jobs, sales, tax revenue, etc. In short, economic development.

The low skill jobs that will be created will be geared towards the lower income groups of the San Juan metropolitan area, while the more sophisticated jobs and the products being created will be geared towards higher income peoples. It works for the benefits of both end of the spectrum.

Click on this link to see the pending projects due to the San Juan metro:
http://www.casadisquera.com/ciudadmayor.htm
-NALs

 

[aegap]

...the multiplying affect and...

Excellent point NALs!

 

[NALs]

Nals,

You know most of the people who lash out the negativity can't find any information on their own because they're too ignorant to learn Spanish. This is the most oxymoronic website ever. A Dominican related site where over 95% of the threads are in English.

People fear what they don't understand, I've heard that plenty of times.

In any case, this site is in English because its a DR-oriented site for non-Dominicans. If the site would have been inclusive to Dominicans and/or attempted to reach the Dominican audience, it would also be available in Spanish, I would think. Only Dominicans with at least a basic understanding of written English would be able to interact and understand what has been posted on this site.

As for the negativity, part of the reason (this is only my opinion) is that some posters don't have a good understanding of Spanish and want more information on such projects. They get their information by pressuring those whom they think may know more about this, either because such person understand Spanish and thus, has access to much more information of things occuring in the DR and/or the person may have access to information the average person does not due to contacts and such.

The other reason could be a personal competition. Some posters respond negatively not because they disagree with the subject matter (although this is possible), but simply for the sake of debating against a particular poster they either enjoy debating with and/or hates his/her guts.

Furthermore, some posters probably have a pessimistic outlook towards life in general, and it makes perfect sense they will only post negative things and insults.

And last but not least, some posters may understand the Spanish language well to get much information of what's occuring in the DR, the same posters could also have access to information that is not available to the general public, but they still have not been convinced about such project.

In any case, it's not something that should be taken personally, unless the poster makes it clear that he/she is personally attacking you. In a world where people don't dissapear at the whim or desires of others, such matter should be taken cared of via PMs and contacting the web site's moderators.

I'm of the belief that most people here are of good nature. As all humans, our decisions and analysis of things is not always done in the most rational way, but of good nature most are. A few I have doubts about and usually these get banned from the site. Others feel insulted from time to time and take things extremely personal, to the point that you may ask them to help you in something via a PM and such person will not even respond.

But, most people here are helpful and nice. Don't paint everyone with a single brush and don't paint a person by one experience you may have had with him/her.

You will notice that some people are extremely helpful and agreeable on one subject and totally the opposite on another. Some posters may seem less than ideal online and in person may be some of the best people you will ever meet and vice versa.

Generalizations are never good.

-NALs

 

[Mirador]

Excellent point NALs!

The only point of Nals is the point on his head ;-). It's a fallacy that economic development necessarily follows infrastructure. It makes as much sense as saying that deforesting a field will give rise automatically to a profitable crop.

It is obvious that the facts were fixed around the project, no scientific studies have been made. It is not true that the Villa Mella - Avenida M?ximo Gomez point concentrates 51% of traffic in the city. Population/industrial densities and growth obviously run East - West.

Forget the Metro, the most cost-effective economic investment for the country is in education.

[/IMG]

 

[aegap]

He must be high, Mirador

Gee...mirador..lets give the guy this one....


...Talkin' 'bout infrastucture...Where's Causedo?, i don't see it?....(there's a DPW joke there somewhere but... ...i is just to high to see-it!!! :laugh:<<----me)

AEGAP,


OMG, I'm totally, so totally high,...

I just failed my International Banking Test..Buuuttt then I got hi!igh!...
I...I..failed my Corporate Governace Test...Becauuuse I got hi!igh!...
...... failed my French phosnestis Tess.... And I know why, (why man) 'cuz I was hi!igh!
!...
I failed my mexican midgets (the aztecs) test ....for the sole reason that I was hi!igh.!..
Today I was going to class, before I go hi!igh!
I was gonna pass my macro Mid-term....Until I got hi!igh!
I coulda' cheated and I coulda passed, but man I got hi!igh!
I'm takin' it next semester, though, and I know why, (why man) 'cuz I got hi!igh!
I'm now buyin' dope and I know why, (why man) 'cuz I'm hi!igh!

CAUGHT!!!!

i gotta go to court (why man) 'cuz I got hi!igh!
My future is now ruined man, and I know why, (why man) 'cuz I got hi!igh,
I was gonna baiser my French femme, but then I got high, I'm serious
I'm messing up my entire life, because I got hi!igh!
I'm gonna stop singing this song, because I'm so hi!igh!
...because i got high, because i got high....buuuutttt then i got hi!igh!..tuhtuntuntuhntuntuh...
(I'm I really high man?) (I is really is hi!igh man!)
All the 'Dale weed i be smokin, is mama's hell...
...I just....

Se acab?...brb,....gotta have some mo'!... ...gotta get mo' weed manlaugh: <<---me)

Seriously! though, ...

NALs, do NOT do drugs...we wouldn't want Nalstistics, I mean your statistics I mean to mecome, even mo' screwed!

Mirador,...good education...I'd like to think of myself as a good walking example of that [:laugh:<<--me, not walking, ... .......(high!)]

aegap

 

[Rick Snyder]

To those of you that posted concerning the subway in Puerto Rico. I posted a link which I found interesting and wondered why nobody mentioned its contents so I tried the link and found it was bad. I looked it up again and I think I've solved the problem so here is the new link. Check it out;

Rick

I can't get the link to work

 

[Chirimoya]

Well, only a few answers to what should be easy questions, and most of these are incomplete and unconvincing.

These discussions are motivated by a desire to see a solution to the city's traffic problems that is feasible, sustainable, well-thought out, cost effective, and beneficial to the citizenry and the environment (as opposed to government officials and their Swiss bank accounts).

I could go as far as to say that those who choose to brush aside these questions and accuse we who are asking them of having a negative agenda, are the ones who really don't have the DR's best interests at heart.

Excuse us for smelling a rat or two, but if you were thinking of starting a yaniqueque stall there is a certain amount of groundwork and obvious questions to be asked, which is more than the government has done in the case of the metro.

 

[gardito]

I'm sorry, I can't expand on riding patterns or lack therof. I don't work or live in the metro area. Perhaps some one can contact family members or friends here, Santurce/Rio Piedras is afterall the capital of the DR .

Seriously, even though it has been posted that we are not similar, I was refering to the use (utility) the metro is going to have. Some would rather wait in a station than under the rain or hot sun for a concho to come by, then cram into that "taped up toyota" with seven more people in it.

I dont believe that conchos will disappear. It's just presenting people with more options to get to different places.

Sucar, PR fast-tracked those studies/permits. So anything can be in them. PR also studied the Mexico City and Bogota systems. What they were looking at was how these systems were used, not the way they were built.

As a side note, I was in SD when the elevado on 27 de Febrero was being built (2000). I recall thinking that it would fall when they took those wooden supports off. I've recently have had the chance to be on it during bumper to bumper traffic and have felt safe.

As for crime rate, any improvement mobilty will lead to more crime as it is easier for criminals to get in/out and travel to more places. This hapens with freeways also. As for crime IN the metro, PR followed the measures as in other places and set up a special metro police (just another division of PR police). Mayhaps the govt can set up a new AMET just for the system, or just give it to AMET?

E.