Metro defenders - answer these questions please

[NALs]

Many people who has read my posts through the years know that I agree 100% with Pichardo and Narcosis.

To "Theforceisinme", the single biggest problem with the mentality of most Dominicans is their extreme pessimism on EVERYTHING that has to do with the DR!

The island seems to be filled with people who know every road towards failure and nothing else. They know how something will fail without prior analysis, without sufficient information to backup their pessimistic claims.

Do you know how many people had a similar point of view as yours when the elevados were built?

Do you know how many people swore on their mother's grave that the Cibao airport was going to be a flop?

Do you know how many people "predicted" the inevitable failure in tourism when the DR began to develop such industry?

Do you know how many people protested against the construction of the Autopista Duarte, swearing that that highway was not going to be of much help and that it was going to crumble because the DR had never had a highway of such style and of such length? (Hm, its funny that no one is protesting the current construction of the Autopista del Este, the Autopista El Coral, and the expansion of Autopista 6 de noviembre!)

Do you know how many people foresaw the demise of the MegaCentro shopping mall, the largest shopping mall on the island, the second largest in the Caribbean, and located in an area that is not affluent at all?

Do you know how many people know the way to failure but nothing else?

Do you know how many people "know" that fulano de tal will fail in his new business venture, in college, in his new relationship, in his new position at work, etc?

If your justification for your position in this argument is that the metro will fail because we are Dominicans or just because (those two words can be said in any number of ways), then please be much more specific.

For every suppose failure you can conjure as examples, I'll bring positive successes!

The DR is chock full of both, so be careful as you make your list, but I'm willing to wait. :ermm:

Pessimism is the number one problem among most Dominicans. Everything else is a distraction of the obvious, or just plain conversation with not much substance.

Pessimism is the problem. Once that's eliminated, everything is possible because people who are not pessimistic tend to work towards their goals until they are met and they never quit!

A country filled with optimistic people would fare much better than most, a DR filled with optimistic people would actually be a much better DR.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Back when they started building the Metro system in NYC and many other major cities in the U.S., poverty there was about as bad as in Santo Domingo today. Those were the times of tenement buildings, and child labor often times worst than what you see in Santo Domingo today.

That is very true!

I suggest for people to get a copy of the book titled "Old New York in Early Photographs" by Mary Black. Aside from the fact that you will get to see almost 200 photos of Manhattan from 1853 to 1901, the most interesting photos and one that is a testament to what aegap said above can be found on pages 203 and 199.

Hm, those slums that in 1893 and 1898 existed along Manhattan's Fifth Avenue sure looks like the slums that encircles Santo Domingo right now.

When was the New York Subway system built?

Oooh, aaaah. :cheeky:

-NALs

 

[London_Calling]

So by building the Metro 27th will become 5th Avenue - I think not. The Metro in New York and London's Tube earlier certainly contributed to those citys' development but could not have done so in isolation - other developments occured at the same time which resulted in a modern infrastruture - water, health services, electricity, education.

As mentioned in a previous post "What the government SHOULD do is invest more in education." And Picardo with due respect to your 1000+ posts "The morphing of the Education system to a nation wide wireless WAN. Students will go on line into virtual classrooms. With the integration of a national electronic library for students only. (Underway)..." is not the answer - what they need is properly trained and paid teachers.

 

[Theforceinme]

At least London_Calling understands what I mean.

Guys, progress for the sake of progress is not the answer.

Most of the projects the governments build are NOT looked after. The Metro is not a BAD project, as I stated before. It is just the WORST decision. Like having to choose to build your house, a modest one is enough, what you need... the other is a huge mansion that you will have slave away to build. Why choose the expensive option?

The OMSA system does NOT work because they don't maintain it. They don't take care of it... they steal the money for it!! So why does building a BIGGER white elephant fix things? It does not make sense.

The NY Metro, as mentioned, was built together with improvements on all the other areas... this is not true in the DR. Our hospitals are basically 'mata-sanos". Our schools are just bare walls without enough teachers, our water... wait, what water!? Every building needs its own pump and cistern... it is beyond ridiculous. Fixing the OMSA, enforcing traffic laws, etc... this is what should be done. The only thing doing so-so is the electric service, and that's because it was an election year... the news are saying that the brownouts are coming back in some areas already.

As far as the private schools... yes, their academic programs are competitive... but their costs are so high that only the wealthy can send their children there. So the wealthy get more educated, the poor less educated. Is that a solution?

The Metro will bring relief to traffic, the Metro will be good for that for a while.. but it was a horrible decision and a huge burden on the DR. And to top it off, we know they chose it to A) impress B) so they can steal a lot without being noticed.

It's not about being pessimistic. I know we will get through this... but being BLIND to what ppl do isn't right. We should fight and argue for correct and economical decisions.

And funny that you mention the Elevados... they were also a big mistake. Yes, they DO do their job, the DID help congestion... but it was a step in the wrong direction. Do you notice how we have the SAME PROBLEMS WITH TRAFFIC NOW as we had before then? Yeah... history repeating itself because we don't learn. The correct choice at the time the elevados were built was to decrease private car ownership by offering a practical public transport system, and a more efficient one... like more OMSAs (working ones, timely ones). The elevados are proof that we can't organize our roads and traffic, that we need to complicate it with even more layers of roads... it is not a solution for our future.

I said enough. I think you are a bit condescending because you have more posts than I do, or because your ties are older... and I'm not saying new is better, but that doesn't mean older is wiser...

 

[A.Hidalgo]

NALs your'e back....
Pardon for going off topic a bit but some things do need clarification......

Many people who has read my posts through the years know that I agree 100% with Pichardo and Narcosis.

That being said how do you reconcile your position with PICHARDO on the question of poverty. After reading his post below a reasonable person walks away with the strong impression that according to his crystal ball those living in poverty in the Dominican Republic are Haitians....few if any are shall we say Dominicans....

Let me be blunt on this:

The "villages" and "poor" that you encounter today in the DR in some 80% of the time are the direct result of open borders for cheap labor...

Let me be clear on this:
The poor of the poor you see today in the DR are the direct result of the migration of the poorest of the poor from Haiti to the DR...

The racial composition of the Campos has been changed dramatically in the past 30 years!!!

If you really want to help the poorest, take your bag and head to Haiti, the main source of destitution in the island...

If you want to know what being poor in the DR was at the time, just head to Pueblo Nuevo, Gurabo, Licey, Pekin, canabacoa, etc.. So that you can understand what level poverty was in the DR at that point in time.

Ever since the fall of Duvalier and all the restlessness in Haiti, at each turn of the gun fights, hordes of people just crossed the border to seek refuge in the DR. Those people never went back, why would they have done that?

Poor people were the ones living in Los Pepines, Baracoa, Valerio, etc...

The DR got the poorest of them all, and in spite of that, still forges forward unlike their country of origin.

A recent study conducted via the JCE rolls confirmed that over 75% of the people living in the campos in the west are of Haitian descent in the last 30 year span. That's less than two generations...

The poverty masses in our river banks and houses put together by anything they can nail to it, were found to be 60% of Haitian descent in a 40 year span... Less than 3 generations back...

This what you said some time ago. I only bring this up because you demand so much of members here and I just wanted to keep things consistent.

Those comments by the U.S. State Department are incredible.

"...2006 human rights report on the Dominican Republic stated that Dominican sugar plantations lacked such basics as sewage systems..."

They expect small impoverished rural Haitian communities to be given priority when impoverished inner-city communities like Gualey in northeastern Santo Domingo where thousands of Dominicans live look like this:

(Photos Source)

Unbelievable the blind eye to the reality of the DR people make when making the case of the "plight of poor Haitians", never stating that poor Haitians live the way they do because they are poor, no different than poor Dominicans in similar marginalized situations.



-NALs :ermm:

my bold

 

[NALs]

Hidalgo,

Please pin point the discrepancy, because I don't see it.

Where did Pichardo said that 100% of all poor people are Haitians?

All that I see is that according to him some reports have found that over 70% of poor people living in rural areas of the South (he said West, I'm sure he meant South) were found to be of Haitian descent and 60% of people living in abject poverty having Haitian ancestry.

He also mentioned the living conditions of many rural Dominicans.

Um, where is the 100% that you are alluding to?:ermm:

Answer that question for me and while you are doing that, can you please explain to me where the discrepancy between what I said in another thread vs. what Pichardo has said in this thread?

Pichardo never said that the only people living in poverty are Haitians, so please explain where he said that as you claim he did and where is this discrepancy that you see and I can't.

-NALsaranoid:

 

[NALs]

At least London_Calling understands what I mean.

Guys, progress for the sake of progress is not the answer.

Most of the projects the governments build are NOT looked after. The Metro is not a BAD project, as I stated before. It is just the WORST decision. Like having to choose to build your house, a modest one is enough, what you need... the other is a huge mansion that you will have slave away to build. Why choose the expensive option?

The OMSA system does NOT work because they don't maintain it. They don't take care of it... they steal the money for it!! So why does building a BIGGER white elephant fix things? It does not make sense.

The NY Metro, as mentioned, was built together with improvements on all the other areas... this is not true in the DR. Our hospitals are basically 'mata-sanos". Our schools are just bare walls without enough teachers, our water... wait, what water!? Every building needs its own pump and cistern... it is beyond ridiculous. Fixing the OMSA, enforcing traffic laws, etc... this is what should be done. The only thing doing so-so is the electric service, and that's because it was an election year... the news are saying that the brownouts are coming back in some areas already.

As far as the private schools... yes, their academic programs are competitive... but their costs are so high that only the wealthy can send their children there. So the wealthy get more educated, the poor less educated. Is that a solution?

The Metro will bring relief to traffic, the Metro will be good for that for a while.. but it was a horrible decision and a huge burden on the DR. And to top it off, we know they chose it to A) impress B) so they can steal a lot without being noticed.

It's not about being pessimistic. I know we will get through this... but being BLIND to what ppl do isn't right. We should fight and argue for correct and economical decisions.

And funny that you mention the Elevados... they were also a big mistake. Yes, they DO do their job, the DID help congestion... but it was a step in the wrong direction. Do you notice how we have the SAME PROBLEMS WITH TRAFFIC NOW as we had before then? Yeah... history repeating itself because we don't learn. The correct choice at the time the elevados were built was to decrease private car ownership by offering a practical public transport system, and a more efficient one... like more OMSAs (working ones, timely ones). The elevados are proof that we can't organize our roads and traffic, that we need to complicate it with even more layers of roads... it is not a solution for our future.

I said enough. I think you are a bit condescending because you have more posts than I do, or because your ties are older... and I'm not saying new is better, but that doesn't mean older is wiser...

I'm sure the highways in First World cities don't suffer from congestion.

It was a big mistake for all of that construction to have taken place.

Much better would had been unpaved trails, in fact unimproved dirt.

While we are at it, the car was a horrible invention too.

The world would function much better if people simply used a horse and buggy for transportation.

In fact, all things invented are horrible. The world would function much better if we all lived like in the stone age.

Oh brother.... :tired:

Kid, you are expecting problems and that is your problem, which is rooted in an inherent pessimism that you have.

Don't expect problems, because they have a habit to not disappoint!

-NALs

 

[NALs]

So by building the Metro 27th will become 5th Avenue - I think not. The Metro in New York and London's Tube earlier certainly contributed to those citys' development but could not have done so in isolation - other developments occured at the same time which resulted in a modern infrastruture - water, health services, electricity, education.

Of course!

What makes you think that other developments are not occurring at the moment?

-NALs

 

[Theforceinme]

I'm sure the highways in First World cities don't suffer from congestion.

It was a big mistake for all of that construction to have taken place.

Much better would had been unpaved trails, in fact unimproved dirt.

While we are at it, the car was a horrible invention too.

The world would function much better if people simply used a horse and buggy for transportation.

In fact, all things invented are horrible. The world would function much better if we all lived like in the stone age.

Oh brother.... :tired:

Kid, you are expecting problems and that is your problem, which is rooted in an inherent pessimism that you have.

Don't expect problems, because they have a habit to not disappoint!

-NALs

What a pointless reply...

You just decided to attack me personally by using ridiculous comments and sarcasm... instead of trying to convince me that my ideas are wrong? When I said we should change private cars for a working public transport system, no comment? When I said overpasses are built because they want the quick fix... no comment?

What a pointless reply...

Listen old man... I don't have to expect trouble. I see it everyday when I get on the streets. What I am proposing were solutions to these problems cause by short sightedness and self interest.

 

[PICHARDO]

At least London_Calling understands what I mean.

Guys, progress for the sake of progress is not the answer.

Most of the projects the governments build are NOT looked after. The Metro is not a BAD project, as I stated before. It is just the WORST decision. Like having to choose to build your house, a modest one is enough, what you need... the other is a huge mansion that you will have slave away to build. Why choose the expensive option?

The OMSA system does NOT work because they don't maintain it. They don't take care of it... they steal the money for it!! So why does building a BIGGER white elephant fix things? It does not make sense.

The NY Metro, as mentioned, was built together with improvements on all the other areas... this is not true in the DR. Our hospitals are basically 'mata-sanos". Our schools are just bare walls without enough teachers, our water... wait, what water!? Every building needs its own pump and cistern... it is beyond ridiculous. Fixing the OMSA, enforcing traffic laws, etc... this is what should be done. The only thing doing so-so is the electric service, and that's because it was an election year... the news are saying that the brownouts are coming back in some areas already.

As far as the private schools... yes, their academic programs are competitive... but their costs are so high that only the wealthy can send their children there. So the wealthy get more educated, the poor less educated. Is that a solution?

The Metro will bring relief to traffic, the Metro will be good for that for a while.. but it was a horrible decision and a huge burden on the DR. And to top it off, we know they chose it to A) impress B) so they can steal a lot without being noticed.

It's not about being pessimistic. I know we will get through this... but being BLIND to what ppl do isn't right. We should fight and argue for correct and economical decisions.

And funny that you mention the Elevados... they were also a big mistake. Yes, they DO do their job, the DID help congestion... but it was a step in the wrong direction. Do you notice how we have the SAME PROBLEMS WITH TRAFFIC NOW as we had before then? Yeah... history repeating itself because we don't learn. The correct choice at the time the elevados were built was to decrease private car ownership by offering a practical public transport system, and a more efficient one... like more OMSAs (working ones, timely ones). The elevados are proof that we can't organize our roads and traffic, that we need to complicate it with even more layers of roads... it is not a solution for our future.

I said enough. I think you are a bit condescending because you have more posts than I do, or because your ties are older... and I'm not saying new is better, but that doesn't mean older is wiser...

Oh Yes! The very same way that big congested cities like NYC, Tokyo, etc... Have been able to reduce the private drivers from their streets...

Keep dreaming Utopias and let us follow our wrong choices to support... At least ours are in the here & now...

The reason OMSA, Onatrate and the soup of failed public transports are doomed from the get go, is for the same reason they are equally in dire straits in other well developed countries: The public systems rely on taxes from the local gov to keep working. As such we now are seeing the effects of cities cutting services where people in fact demand more of the same...

It's via the private sector with private funding coupled with public funding, the way in which the public transportation should work and become stable.

The DR is actively engaging the private sector in the Metro and future bus system for the entire country. The proposal for the Santiago-SD high speed train will be cemented on this very same basis.

The Metro needed to have a point of origin in order to pull private investors into the bandwagon of long term infrastructure development, before any such proposal could be have been made.

The education system is the same; we need to stop relying in hiring more teachers and building new schools that only add to the needs.
The practical solution of teaching using the internet and home-based laptops is proven by the increasing amount of colleges doing the same with students.

The DR is ahead of the pile, as we try to avoid continuing to support a failed system with a leap frog jump into the new web age.

Our aim is simple: We're in the process of installing the basic infrastructure to support Wi-Fi in all areas of the country; no matter how remote they are, we're making giant leaps into covering all the territory to be able to kick the virtual classroom into reality. Can you say that for the rest of the world via full gov support and funding?

One teacher can impart classes effectively, while getting all feedback from the students, in classes of unheard number before. Kids will benefit with ample support from their teachers, as their needs are indentified in the early stages than waiting for tests to gauge their needs.

Once the Dominican refinery is completely in our gov hands, we'll move into making E85 Ethanol a reality in our country. We're aiming to import only a small fraction of the oil we need today.
That translates into less wealth being pushed out to the exterior. As the DR produces a good 80% of the energy it consumes, the country will not need to place the huge amount of foreign currency into that, but projected into other programs in the country.

Our Hospitals will be fused into the private sector, thus assuring that services will be on par to any developed country.

The main idea is that no public health system is better than any private health provider (as proven in CAN with the immense wait time to get complicated surgery/tests). As such, the DR is aiming to complement the public hospitals with the private ones in a way that will allow both to run in tandem with full gov/private sector overseeing.

The initial test bed was the HOMES of Santiago...
The rest of the DR's public Hospitals are aggressively being upgraded to bring them to par (in equipment) to those in the private sector. In a way making sure that once the pairing is done, the private sector will need to take the director's chair rather than having to fit the public Hospitals to the private standards.

Reducing car ownership has been tried by every single developed country in the world with little success. What on earth makes you think that a country in the way to development like the DR can achieve what each and every developed nation on this world hasn't been able to achieve? Now you're saying we're smart a**es enough to beat the world on this???

The elevados are doing what they were intended for; the city of SD is growing just like any other cosmopolitan city in the world has...
With all the congestion that represents them.

The Metro will give the city a head start those same cities lacked in the early onset with the added value of the gov being able to railroad anything past anyone's head...

Utopias are the things dreams are made of; reality is cruel and very aggravating...

 

[PICHARDO]

NALs your'e back....
Pardon for going off topic a bit but some things do need clarification......



That being said how do you reconcile your position with PICHARDO on the question of poverty. After reading his post below a reasonable person walks away with the strong impression that according to his crystal ball those living in poverty in the Dominican Republic are Haitians....few if any are shall we say Dominicans....



This what you said some time ago. I only bring this up because you demand so much of members here and I just wanted to keep things consistent.



my bold

Read carefully and check the %s offered.

As far as stating one thing or the other, pretty much your words...

Those pictures are the prime example of the poverty creeping into the city...

Now, guessing that you're a Dominican that was raised in the city of SD...

Tell me, going to that same spot you posted those pics from, was there such thing in existence?!?

I can tell you the answer: NOT!

The DR had wooden frame homes with thatch roofing?s. That was the extent of the customs (read culture) at the time. Those were the parts of SD not rebuilt by the dictator after the hurricane that destroyed most of the thatch covered housing there...

Poverty in the DR some 35 to 40 years back was people that lived in those houses still, wooden frames and tin roofs.

The people that started to build the huts with anything they could nail were the same ones that engineered the bidonvilles of Port au Prince...

Now, if you consider a family living in Las Colonias in Jarabacoa, under a tin roof in a wooden frame home "poor"... My friend I give you the Cassandra!!!

Don't confuse our culture still living in the campos with poverty...
Poor are even those foreigners that can barely get by on their bills while trying to live in the DR... A campesino is a person that gets to eat fresh produce and eat well from their conucos.

Don't confuse a hard working campesino toiling in the fields with a person sleeping in bare floors in construction sites...

Poor is not something to label a person not living in a cinder block home, with a microwave, side by side refrigerator, juicer, 27 inch TV and running water from a pipe...

If the DR decided to deport all non-cedulado people in our cities, poverty would be reduced in incredible numbers to say the least...

Wages would go up, services would improve and our Hospitals wouldn't be out of curitas for your scrapes...

Is very simple...

 

[catcherintherye]

Picardo,
May I offer an alternative perspective. If all the Haitians were deported the economy of the DR would collapse, plain and simple.

There would be no one to do all those jobs that need to be done but that no one wants to do. I think if you check with any knowledgeable economist you'll find that the supply and demand concept applys to the workforce the same as it does to commodities. If they weren't needed in this economy they won't be here.

They are also needed for another very simple reason, this a psychological one. They provide the perfect scapegoat for all the ills of Dominican society. I mean, what aren't they blamed for?

So think twice before you call for massive deportations, and be careful what you wish for. You might just be slitting your own throat.

 

[PICHARDO]

Picardo,
May I offer an alternative perspective. If all the Haitians were deported the economy of the DR would collapse, plain and simple.

There would be no one to do all those jobs that need to be done but that no one wants to do. I think if you check with any knowledgeable economist you'll find that the supply and demand concept applys to the workforce the same as it does to commodities. If they weren't needed in this economy they won't be here.

They are also needed for another very simple reason, this a psychological one. They provide the perfect scapegoat for all the ills of Dominican society. I mean, what aren't they blamed for?

So think twice before you call for massive deportations, and be careful what you wish for. You might just be slitting your own throat.

You think so?!?

They do the jobs that no Dominican would do for the pay they are being offered, plain and simple, wages haven't change much for these kinds of work...

The situation is that you have an endless supply of below market labor that would fill any quota with ease. The Dominican national can't compete in a market that is paying below what he needs to make an honest living.

The construction markets (developers/cosntructoras) were making and still make a killing with the kinds of payrolls they have. The only time that market sees any downturn is when the prices of materials go over the roof, not payroll...

If supply and demand was as easy to apply to the labor force as you put it, we would have been in big trouble a long time ago!!! LOL!!!

When a sector of the labor force is abundant (migrants willing to work for peanuts compared to what they have back home) the result is that wages get locked and depreciate considerably in comparison to the other sectors.

Nowadays we have that migrants are able to obtain fraudulent Cedulas and compete not only in the agro and construction sector but have extended into almost all sectors of industry.

Now, take out the under-priced migrant labor force and see how the local economy is impacted, when the nationals can get jobs with wages that would actually allow them to live better lives (able to actually pay bills with it). The median income would go up in less than 1 fiscal year...

Goods are not necessarily going to get priced above the median income, but will raise never the less.

I prefer to pay a few extra pesos for my food and have a real labor market that supports families, than pay dirt cheap for them and have the incredible phenomena of a country were the people have to flee to get a decent income to live with.

The other countries that had accepted irregular migrants as good for their economies are now making a U-turn given the disparity of wages in contrast to the living standard/expenses of the median family household.

Migration is good, always that is done orderly and with good measure...

As for the DR's economy coming crashing down if we go the deport all via, not by a long shot...

 

[PICHARDO]

Just to be clear on this:
I don't advocate or condone for the massive deportation of the Haitians living in our country irregularly, I do however advocate and condone the constrictions needed to have the industry market play with a fair deck with out national workforce.

We have laws in the books regarding the way to go about this...
We have to penalize any employer that knowingly breaks the law when they opt to hire employees without the legal authorization to do the work as the law requires.

We have to create a minimum wage and the way for the labor force to seek help when their rights are being stepped on.

If you don't hold the proper documentation to work here, then it's the responsibility of the industry to abide by the immigration law.

We have many foreigners that come to our country and abide by the law. They get their residency and follow the rules to live, work and maybe become citizens of our country. The Haitian people are NOT denied such basic privilege.

The issue is that we have to make sure that those that make the trip over, can sustain themselves or will in fact provide into our economy as well.
So are we so terrible to ask the same any country on the face of this Earth, that those coming in pass those basic points?

Do you have any idea how many young Haitian students today take part in our Universities, industry, agencies? The number of Haitians that came just as you (the foreigner non-Haitian) and applied for residency while providing ample proof of his/her solvency?

What country asks to get the poorest of another with a smile?!?

I can assure you that measures are being taken to halt the industry from continuing to support themselves via an irregular migrant labor force and at the same time, creating the basic foundation for the industry to follow from then on.

We'll take the humane approach, because we're not so delusional (like some countries) that mass deportation is a way to do so. We're going to fix the doors and windows. Secure the roof and basement. Then we'll start to take case by case and make sure that those who should be here will get their day in court fairly; those that fail, will not be able to obtain jobs as easy as before and will have to pass checks on a weekly basis in the country. Until they understand that the only way to come in is to be out and apply the right way, if able to fill the basic requirements ANY foreigner here must meet as well.

It takes time to set the order of things, so once you start the process it become clear and only minor adjustments will be needed.

 

[J D Sauser]

Let's dream for a moment and imagine that this is something other than a cash-cow for corrupt officials...

• Well, I am sure it's not only a cash cow for corrupt officials, but for some well connected businessmen and contractors as well. At the end it all blows some money into the economy... sadly much of it may be spend abroad or on flashy four wheeled imported goods thou.
• But then, at the end of the day, lets not overlook the surprising fact that not only money is being guzzled up but a Metro is really being built. So, we can say that one positive side effect is, that there will be a metro too. This is incidentally an other slant at the view most locals out on the street seem to have: que se llevan lo cualto, eto ya tu sabe, pero que al menos dejen algo, c**o!
• Interestingly some remote Metro stops, like Santo Domingo Norte (Noth of Charles de Gaule) have already given some new breath into development there... well, at least the land prizes have gone up considerably .

You guys miss the point. Besides all the transportation issues that this will hopefully alleviate, its mostly about prestige. MODERNIZING the country.

I understand your thinking but let me ad a couple of observations: Modernization occurs as a result of many, many global positive factors in a country and it's surrounding region, it's not something one celebrates or forces. It is typical of countries in development to "play" modernization by building megalomaniac projects like estadios "molelo" and other slightly useless mythomaniatic structures (El Faro comes to mind). Throughout the world many of these often poorly build structures which also typically suffer from a short lived "design" or styling (eg: arquitectura Balaguerista) quickly fall in need of renovation or replacement or end up abandoned for being totally obsolete. This is only one factor why these countries keep on falling behind even after making over sized investment in futuristic projects. Also, the destructive effects of corruption can never be offset by pulling the "modernization"-card... because that card is only part of the corruption.. so, it's what eventually hinders modernization.

The re-discovery of the Malecon(es) (not only in SD) is a real estate phenomenon that drives itself based on new life style perceptions and the resulting offer and demand, speculation and maybe even greed... but it finances itself.

Let's only hope the SD Metro will be well built and designed so that it can be operative in an effective manner for decades to come.

... J-D.

 

[catcherintherye]

Pichardo,
Yes, I most certainly do think so, and many others do as well.

Historically, there are numerous examples of wholesale deportation causing economic collapse on a local level.

In the Southwestern US for example, entire counties have seen acute economic damage as a result of deported Mexican farm laborers. There is simply no one left to pick the crops, and they literally rot in the fields. Generations-old family farms are being abandoned in record numbers.

In addition The Perryman report found that:

There are currently approximately 8.1 million undocumented workers in the US economy. If these workers were removed from the workforce, the effects would ripple through many industries and the ultimate job losses would be even higher.

Undocumented immigrants comprise a large component of the workforce in some industries and geographic areas. In 10 states, the percentage of undocumented workers as a share of the workforce equals or exceeds the national average of 5%. Arizona has the highest proportion with 12%.

For the US as a whole, the immediate negative effect of eliminating the undocumented workforce would include an estimated
o $1.757 trillion in annual lost spending,
o $651.511 billion in annual lost output, and
o 8.1 million lost jobs.

Per-capita losses in a number of states include thousands of dollars in annual economic activity.

There is clear evidence that undocumented workers are currently making contributions to the US economy and society, especially in certain industries and occupations.

If all undocumented workers were removed from the workforce, a number of industries would face substantial shortages of workers, and Americans would have to be induced into the labor pool or provided incentives to take jobs far below their current education and skill levels.2 For this phenomenon to occur to a meaningful extent, substantial wage escalation would likely be necessary, thus eroding competitiveness in global markets.


With regard to the DR there are also numerous examples of deportations causing considerable economic damage. The coffee and sugar growers certainly understand the importance of having Haitian labor available to them.

The fact also remains that businesses do not automatically train new workers and pay higher wages when their traditional workforce is displaced. They look at the bottom line, and if their profit is not sustainable with higher wages it simply makes good business sense to close shop. This would happen across many industries.

I am not the least bit interested in becoming involved in an emotional pi**ing contest. Let the facts speak for themselves. I am simply offering them in the interest of constructive dialogue.

 

[PICHARDO]

The pivoting point of the SD Metro is that it was planned with long term private development in mind. In other words, the plan is to build the basic infrastructure enough so that private investors will be willing (as they already have) to become part of the next 50 year growth phase of the Metro into a national scale...

You can gather huge interest in a project with nice artist's elevations, layouts, etc... A working full-size presentation beats all others...

I'll break this news here in DR1 (though I shouldn't):

The Santiago-Santo Domingo high speed train proposal (until last week) is going to start the exploration and planning stages as of this week!!!!!!!!

Already several international sectors have asked to be briefed on the SD Metro, our aim is to have the internal movers and shakers take initiative and become partners with the gov on this... We want the private Dominican investors groups to understand that the interest of the gov is to give the locals insider tracks before the foreign firms are padded in.

The Metro is not alone on this; a new bus system to link all the stations and future lines is also in the last phases of planning and routing. They will have a 100% mechanical yard with parts support via royalty with the bus manufacturers.

The elections were a pause (and a big one to that) on the implementation and calling of the internal industry to this end. Once the new (many changes to come soon) administration is placed, the plans will be available to our men of industry in the DR.

Big things going to be announced soon after the inaugural of Fernandez's new term in office...

Dropping a "hot potato" here: What do you guys know about Mitsubishi Heavy Industry energy's branch??? Just a hint...

 

[PICHARDO]

In addition The Perryman report found that:

There are currently approximately 8.1 million undocumented workers in the US economy. If these workers were removed from the workforce, the effects would ripple through many industries and the ultimate job losses would be even higher.

Undocumented immigrants comprise a large component of the workforce in some industries and geographic areas. In 10 states, the percentage of undocumented workers as a share of the workforce equals or exceeds the national average of 5%. Arizona has the highest proportion with 12%.

For the US as a whole, the immediate negative effect of eliminating the undocumented workforce would include an estimated
o $1.757 trillion in annual lost spending,
o $651.511 billion in annual lost output, and
o 8.1 million lost jobs.

Per-capita losses in a number of states include thousands of dollars in annual economic activity.

There is clear evidence that undocumented workers are currently making contributions to the US economy and society, especially in certain industries and occupations.

If all undocumented workers were removed from the workforce, a number of industries would face substantial shortages of workers, and Americans would have to be induced into the labor pool or provided incentives to take jobs far below their current education and skill levels.2 For this phenomenon to occur to a meaningful extent, substantial wage escalation would likely be necessary, thus eroding competitiveness in global markets.

I don't use biased reports as the one you posted for that same fact...
I however take part in the local economy of the US in not less than 5 states and 27 counties. I'll use Orange County in Florida as one minute example of the consequences of the border controls and immigration enforcement:

After Jan 2007 an increase of activity by the department of homeland security (immigration arm) a huge amount of irregular migrant were arrested and deported. We notice a quick impact on gas and internal quick shop sales that dropped the index below by a 2 to 1 margin (huge). Our sub leasers were in average holding payrolls with 7 to 8.50 dollars per hour (give or take magnt). After 6 months the same area reports an increased of 2 to 3 dollars in the payrolls soon after.

Our sales climbed once again to pre-2007 continuance per period/calendar, only to drop once the housing market stalled in the same area again mid Nov 2007. Again, we climbed to pre-Jan 2007 continuance per period/calendar on Feb 2008. The pattern of the payroll has been repeated elsewhere a big push was done either by the immigration dept or local law enforcement (as terrible as it may be).

As you understand the agro industry relies heavily in the migrant laborers due to the lack of nationals willing to do the same jobs for the pay scale offered to say missing migrants. Agro products are going up as we speak across the board, but also wages are increasing since the industry need to attract local laborers back into the fields with better pay as an enticement.

At the end, the rotting crops will be re-planted and better paid laborers, with proper documentation, will be picking those for us as well (at a price increase unlike our 80's like prices we wanted to keep paying).

Wages have been increasing in all parts of the market accordingly; the only external unrelated upset to this trend has turned out to be the sheer speculation of the oil in the market. Something that we have little control over.

Enough with this issue that lacks anything to do with the Metro!!!
Won't answer any more posts that don't revolve around it!

Have a nice day!

 

[catcherintherye]

If the DR decided to deport all non-cedulado people in our cities, poverty would be reduced in incredible numbers to say the least...
Wages would go up, services would improve and our Hospitals wouldn't be out of curitas for your scrapes...
Is very simple... Picardo

Enough with this issue that lacks anything to do with the Metro!!!
Won't answer any more posts that don't revolve around it!
Have a nice day! Picardo

My sincere apologies for offending your proprietory interest in this thread. However I was simply responding to one of your earlier posts, which related to the economic impact of the Metro. You might want to clearly mark which of your points are allowed a response and which are not.

Your antagonism is evident in your reactions to anyone who presents an opposing opinion or a different point of view. It must be difficult to be that unsure of yourself.

And you have a very nice day as well.

 

[PICHARDO]

Please read the last post here:

http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/57104-haitians-dr-41.html