Metro Update?

NotLurking

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Aha...



That's about 750 million dollars and that was stated on January of 2007.

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-NALs

NALs, with all due respect 'El presidente del Codia' Adolfo Cede?o, was not, is not, and will not be tasked with the job of generating 'official' costs estimates for the SD Metro! If you want to quote someone please quote Diandino Pe?a the person actually tasked with that job! And what did he say the initial cost of the metro was on Feb. 18, 2005?

El costo total de la primera l?nea se ha estimado en US$326,6 millones.

Eso constituye una inversi?n propuesta de US$32,6 millones por cada uno de los 10 kil?metros por donde se extender? esta v?a desde Purto Isabela hasta el Centro de los H?roes.

Seg?n los c?lculos presentados por Diandino Pe?a*, titular de la Oficina del Metro -con rango de secretario de Estado sin cartera- , de los US$326,6 millones una partida de US$125,3 millones ser?a para el sistema integral y otros US$99,4 millones se destinar?a a la perforaci?n de los t?neles. Adem?s, se cuentan US$83,3 millones para las estaciones y a las servidumbres se asignar? US$13,1 millones.

Poco pesan en estas estimaciones el costo que representar?a la mano de obra a utilizar, pues el salario m?nimo registrado en la Secretar?a de Trabajo para los obreros calificados de la construcci?n asciende a RD$294 por d?a.
*my embolding
Soure: Costo del km del Metro ha variado en cada pa?s - DiarioLibre.com


Also the numbers you posted don't make sense! If I were to take those number as real that is only ~US$ 465 million (@33.5 to 1) and we all know better than that!

NotLurking
 

NotLurking

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PICHARDO, just have a look at the song and dance Diandino Pe?a was doing just 10 months after his initial estimates!

La arista que m?s se ha cuestionado del Metro es su costo. Ayer, Diandino Pe?a, al dar detalles de la pr?xima intervenci?n de la OPRET en la ciudad: la Plaza de la Cultura, rompi? el misterio en ese aspecto y por primera vez dio cifras aproximadas de cu?nto costar? el kil?metro. "Nuestro prop?sito y estamos muy pr?ximo a lograrlo es que el kil?metro de metro no llegue a los 50 millones de d?lares", declar?. Esto indica que la primera l?nea, que tiene una extensi?n de 14.5 kil?metros, costar? US$750 millones.
Soure: El Metro no se detiene; Km. costar? US$50 MM - DiarioLibre.com

This reeks of overrun and bad estimates! No?

NotLurking
 

NotLurking

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Did you happen to read my posts? Check again the source of the data you based your opinions over...
Ok, PICHARDO, you're asking me to believe YOU instead of the person in charge of the actual construction --Ingeniero Diandino Pe?a, director de la OPRET tasked with the job of constructing the SD Metro? OK :ermm: Unless you are Diandino Pe?a or was his right hand man, I think I know who to believe

NotLurking
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Notlurking, you are comparing apples and oranges.

The article you quoted as a response to my post dates from Feb. 2005 and was an estimate done by the media. Well, the actual estimate was done by Diandino regarding the cost of operations for the first year, but the journalist printed the story as if it was the total cost from beginning to end.

The article you quoted as a response to Pichardo dates from Dec. 2005 when Diandino Pe?a himself made public for the first time ever the official estimate of the full cost of the Metro (from beginning to end, not just a one year estimate) which, according to the article, was US$750 million.

Hm, they expected the thing to cost 750 million all the way back in 2005 and now in 2009 the project is pretty much complete at around 700 million.

Where is the problem?

-NALs :confused:
 
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NotLurking

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NALs, I don't have a problem and can I please have some of what you are having! The first sentence I quoted from the article is quite clear. I'll quote it again in case you missed it:

El costo total de la primera l?nea se ha estimado en US$326,6 millones.

Translation:
The total cost of the first line has been estimated in US$326.6 millions.

What is hard to understand about that? And where does it state that the estimated amount is for the first year of operation cost? It clearly states it is the estimated cost of the TOTAL Line 1 project.

For the record I have no objection to the SD Metro or how a project of this magnitude was handled. My beef is with the smoke and mirrors some posters want to embellish the truth.

Oh boy,
NotLurking


Notlurking, you are comparing apples and oranges.

The article you quoted as a response to my post dates from Feb. 2005 and was an estimate done by the media. Well, the actual estimate was done by Diandino regarding the cost of operations for the first year, but the journalist printed the story as if it was the total cost from beginning to end.

The article you quoted as a response to Pichardo dates from Dec. 2005 when Diandino Pe?a himself made public for the first time ever the official estimate of the full cost of the Metro (from beginning to end, not just a one year estimate) which, according to the article, was US$750 million.

Hm, they expected the thing to cost 750 million all the way back in 2005 and now in 2009 the project is pretty much complete at around 700 million.

Where is the problem?

-NALs :confused:
 

jl4u2nv

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Jan 13, 2008
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Metro Operations

I have taken Metro Santo Domingo here several times, since it opened to the public on Friday, January 30. The Metro runs from the Centro de los Heroes, at the southern end, to Mama Tingo, at the northern end. It?s about 9 miles long, with 16 train stations, and 19 trains, each with three cars. The initial fare is 50 pesos, 30 pesos for a boleto viajero that you put money on and 20 pesos for the first trip. It can hold up to 1,000 pesos max. The minimun amount you can put on your card is 20 pesos. Each trip costs 20 pesos, meaning everytime you enter and leave, it is 20 pesos.

Operating hours are Sunday - Saturday beginning at 6 am until 10 or 11 pm. This past Monday and Tuesday, it was packed around 4:30-5:00 pm. It runs underground from the Centro de los Heoroes to Maximo Gomez, then it?s above ground until the end at Mama Tingo. Aparently in yesterday?s paper, drivers of taxi cabs and gauguas are upset because there?s been about a 75% decrease in ridership. With an increase in gas prices and not much revue, they are singing the blues.

For more details and background info, check out this link: Metro de Santo Domingo - Santo Domingo Live ! - Informaciones, mapas, estaciones del Metro de Santo Domingo.

I hope this helps some.

JL4u2nv
 
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Can some one explain why they chose to name stations after Domnican heroes rather than as in most other systems after the streets or localities in which they are situated. If they build further lines this policy is going to end up with a lot of confusion.
 

PICHARDO

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Ok, PICHARDO, you're asking me to believe YOU instead of the person in charge of the actual construction --Ingeniero Diandino Pe?a, director de la OPRET tasked with the job of constructing the SD Metro? OK :ermm: Unless you are Diandino Pe?a or was his right hand man, I think I know who to believe

NotLurking

I'm asking you to base your well educated formed opinion based on official data, as in the OPRET official "TOTAL", "COMPLETE", "FROM END TO FINISH" reports. The Media took what they wanted from the press conferences and snippets offered by Diandino and twisted the words to what you based your opinion on.

The SD Metro was never quoted to have an estimated budget to completion with the figures you provided from the media. As Nals provided you with the actual "Official" estimate on the entire project given by Diandino/OPRET officials way much earlier than your "media" allowed budget reports.

I told you as one would any educated adult to READ my posts, where I clearly indicated that you based your opinion on practically manufactured media reports w/o nothing to support it from official channels.

This is just one of the "many" false bits of information out there on this project. If you took a bit of time and scanned some Youtube.com videos about the Metro, you could even get to see and hear from the mouths of foreign executives about the "METRO" being done "UNDER BUDGET" and on "RECORD TIME". Now ask yourself: Since when do foreign executives vote in DR's elections, since that would be the only gain from them via lying to support the party in power when offering such misleading information?

You're still hell-bent into numbers taken out of context, from candid press release talks with project officials, where NOT ONE of them offered in those disclosures the project's FULL budget to completion, as it was done via full disclosure when the pressure from other political interest misused public disclosure laws to get it. As it stood back them, the project was still seeking to cut costs by establishing concurrent licitations for the most expensive and non-nationally produced raw materials, which were not covered in the subcontractors obligations. That means that in order for OPRET to provide the final estimated budget's projections in hand, concurrent licitations were terminated to avoid multiple streams of changes to the underlying budget.

While prices were falling down in some markets, where those articles of interest were produced at better rates, we couldn't solicit any more contracts out, unless a contractor already listed in the budget bailed out or voluntarily asked for dismissal.

That's the effect false media reports had on the actual project's costs handling and negotiations. If you make it public what you expect to spend and pay contractors and for goods, your bargaining chip disappears along with it when soliciting the best value for your money.

The SD Metro has never been "over budget" or "Late" in completion of the project. On the contrary, it has been brought to commercial operations under budget and time in record setting terms.
 

PICHARDO

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Can some one explain why they chose to name stations after Domnican heroes rather than as in most other systems after the streets or localities in which they are situated. If they build further lines this policy is going to end up with a lot of confusion.

Since most of the names used for the stations are well known to most Dominicans in the DR, it made it easier to identify a given stop that way than having to actually have people go to the Hermanas Mirabal Ave. corner with Charles de Gaulle Ave or Parque Mirador Norte at Hermanas Mirabal Ave.

You just say "Mama Tingo" for the first or "La Hermanas Mirabal" for the later...

Think of it like this: Many stations worldwide where Metros operate are well known for the stations that call up to a given name not related to the station's proper, but that of a particular place, thing or personality...

Think Times Square (place since there's no such street name) of the NYC Subway... You get the idea. At first it will take some time to get burned-in, since it's a brand new Metro, but give it time and newborns will know the stations' names since birth! LOL!!

The same happens when using the color patterns employed in the stations...

There was an idea to also employ a specific logo for each station, but later taken out from the project as not to distort the provided budget's run down once it was demanded by the political forces that be and never do anything positive for a change.
 
R

rockero

Guest
Whats new on the Metro these days?
Did they start also the construction of the train that will go from Santo Domingo to Santiago Yet??
 
R

rockero

Guest
NO Sorry I did not Too much too read there sorry for my ignorance hope things do work out great on these trains, YES...
 

PICHARDO

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On front page of DR1 news:



Metro: taxpayer nightmare
It took 2 months and legal action, but journalist Edwin Ruiz of Clave finally got the figures to write his story on how the reality of the first year of the Santo Domingo metro compares to projections made for justifying the construction of the first line. The metro promoters had estimated 200,000 passengers and RD$4 million a day in revenues per day. But the reality of the first six months is that on average 50,643 (including both routes) passengers have rode the metro paying RD$1,012,856 in fares (at RD$20 the fare). The at least RD$3 million daily deficit needs to be picked up by taxpayers. Thus the "dream" of President Leonel Fernandez seems to have turned into a nightmare, at least for taxpayers.
The metro cuts the time to get from Villa Mella to La Feria from 2 hours to 20 minutes. The service is world class. But where are the users? It is not that they would not like to take the modern metro, it is that the feeder routes are not there, and passengers have to pay other fares anyway to take the metro. Hamlet Hermann, former director of the Metropolitan Transport Authority, explains the government did not heed advice to create the feeder routes first.
The stats on the Metro show that the least used stations are those at the Maximo Gomez Cemetery (63 users per hour), the Mirador del Norte (60 users per hour) and La Isabela (54 users per hour). The most used stations are at the two extremes. The Mama Tingo at Av. Charles de Gaulle in Villa Mella shows 636 users per hour, and the La Firia receives 456 users per hour.
Moneywise, the metro is a big loser. With a fare of RD$20, it generates barely RD$1,02,856 daily, or approximately RD$370 million a year, equivalent to about US$10.3 million. Traditional motoconcho, guagua and concho transport favorably compete in price with the comfort of the metro.
According to the OPRET the metro cost US$674.6 million. But the IDB says the investment was US$54 milion per kilometer, or US$756 million.
OPRET has reported the government is subsidizing the metro with RD$22.5 million a month, or about RD$270 million a year. But Edwin Ruiz reports that in the 2009 National Budget RD$2.41 billion or US$64.8 million have been allotted for the operation of the metro. 86% of those funds would have come from abroad.
Opret says that the present cost per passenger is RD$35. The report indicates this means a RD$1.09 billion deficit needs to be assumed by taxpayers that most probably are not using the metro. The report concludes that around 25,000 persons a day benefit greatly from being able to use the US$750 million-metro.
The authorities of the Metro refused to sit for an interview with Edwin Ruiz after delivering the data.


The Reality that's totally ignored:

The metro promoters had estimated 200,000 passengers and RD$4 million a day in revenues per day. But the reality of the first six months is that on average 50,643 (including both routes) passengers have rode the metro paying RD$1,012,856 in fares (at RD$20 the fare). The at least RD$3 million daily deficit needs to be picked up by taxpayers. Thus the "dream" of President Leonel Fernandez seems to have turned into a nightmare, at least for taxpayers.
The metro cuts the time to get from Villa Mella to La Feria from 2 hours to 20 minutes.

The 200,000 ridership was correct! BUT!!!! And here is the pivotal point being ignored by even our own DR1 efficient staff:

The 200,000 daily ridership was the correct/founded/studied/agreed number of riders once ALL the primary lines of the SD Metro were IN service. Not line 1 alone as currently it operates... Not without the feeder system as it today operates... Most importantly NOT under the government's direct administration as today it operates...

As a matter of fact today ridership is averaging 65,000 + on weekdays and 40,000 + on weekends for LINE 1 ALONE!!!!!

Information provided half way is called "Misinformation"....


Hamlet Hermann, former director of the Metropolitan Transport Authority, explains the government did not heed advice to create the feeder routes first.

The feeder buses are NOT in operation for two (2) reasons:

#1- Buying buses to place the feeder routes directly by the gov, would create a conflict of interest and control once the SD Metro system is administered by the semi private-public entity that will take over operations. Any purchase and operation of the buses will entail that the gov would put the semi private -public administrators and system, to the exposure of cash flow, funding, drivers and support contract for the personnel operating the lines, validating of riders with rail system, etc...


#2 - Feeder buses are the primary fall back to the system, should it become inoperable at any given time frame during work hours. Stranding thousands of riders in platforms without the means to get to work using the same routes and fees paid.

The feeder buses will be the primary system the SD Metro will rely on for operations, thus making it imperative that it's under full and direct control of the service and bus infrastructure. Think NYC's MTA, which handles Bus, Rail, Metro and regional interlinks from one control source...


Moneywise, the metro is a big loser. With a fare of RD$20, it generates barely RD$1,02,856 daily, or approximately RD$370 million a year, equivalent to about US$10.3 million. Traditional motoconcho, guagua and concho transport favorably compete in price with the comfort of the metro.

The SD Metro is not even in full operational capacity (understand all the planned lines as projected for a 200,000 + ridership once it completes the phased plan) with barely a few months of operation, yet we fail to hear that the Puerto Rico Metro (ATI) is barely hanging much lower after YEARS operations and 80% loss in operational revenues. Compare apples to apples, not apples (SD Metro) to lemons (conchos)...

To put it a bit more clear for those not so good on fruity math: The SD Metro is the first Metro system built to reach operational capacity of less than 40% of projected service length, and still provide over 30% target ridership in less than 12 months of operations!!!! That's for ANY new metro system built ANYWHERE in the world, including the NYC Metro...

According to the OPRET the metro cost US$674.6 million. But the IDB says the investment was US$54 milion per kilometer, or US$756 million.
OPRET has reported the government is subsidizing the metro with RD$22.5 million a month, or about RD$270 million a year. But Edwin Ruiz reports that in the 2009 National Budget RD$2.41 billion or US$64.8 million have been allotted for the operation of the metro. 86% of those funds would have come from abroad.

The figures offered by OPRET are the definitive lions share of the SD Metro construction costs per Km. The IDB is providing the figures that INLCUDE the actual work on roads, paving, peripheral construction that was undertaken as the Metro construction went on. These works were slated to take place with or without the Metro being built. The gov decided to include them in the contracts offered for bids, in an attempt to get maximum value for the loaned buck, and it did...

That's like saying that your home that your building, is costing 100 million pesos, but the access road to it is in shambles and for your kids to cross the road a mini bridge is the safer option, over a super speeder running them over your avenue. You decide that including a rework of the access road and a mini bridge is in order to complement your new home. When you sell the house what do you think you can include as expenses to build it to a new buyer? The road access? The bridge? Ask him if that's part of the house he's buying and paying for... Those are secondary peripheral upgrades that were called for, not needed or mandated/planned/projected/included as part of the house construction costs...

What Edwin doesn't says is that the allocation to the Metro by the Gov in the national budget, includes the aforementioned upgrades taking place still after the metro stations were built and the inclusion of funds for city and cabildos to make up for the extra stuff that's now needed to be kept and maintained under the responsibility of the public services and not the Metro. Think that all those columns and surroundings to Metro stations, infrastructure, etc... now need to be properly serviced and maintained on street level, not in the system... Not even to include the security afforded to the system in it, which is the primary responsibility of the gov, NOT the Metro administration....

Without adding that everything that needs to address peripheral or services created as the Metro was built, needs to be made from scratch for a system that wasn’t there to begin with. You can't provide services for something that didn't exist before with something that doesn't exist as well to that end. That's included in that "budget" allocation...

Why would you sit with a "reporter" that will anyhow use what he wants and not the whole picture as it's?

If OPRET or the gov was to address and sit with every reporter in the DR that "investigated" and "reported" as this guy did on the METRO SYSTEM, it would need to appoint a 20,000 member staff, ministers and all to handle the daily and hourly "sit" ins needed to clear their "investigations"...


Truly I expected much more than this terrible coverage from DR1!

Since the first second OPRET offered the 200,000 expected daily ridership, it worded the figure correctly to the "ONCE THE LINES ARE IN OPERATION" not "LINE 1 IS IN OPERATION"....

Problem is that "OUR" reporters are analphabets that need to think critically before using their thumbs to type their "reports" in the PC for editors...

Where should I now put DR1 on this one here????
 

Mr. Lu

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Mar 26, 2007
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On front page of DR1 news:


Truly I expected much more than this terrible coverage from DR1!



Where should I now put DR1 on this one here????

How irresponsible of DR1 publishing the truth. How dare they! I will never read DR1 Daily News ever again!!!

I agree with PICHARDO. The Metro will be a roaring success!!!!



Mr. Lu
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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How irresponsible of DR1 publishing the truth. How dare they! I will never read DR1 Daily News ever again!!!

I agree with PICHARDO. The Metro will be a roaring success!!!!



Mr. Lu

Mr. Lu, maybe just maybe, you need to go back to the article you just posted and RE-read the actual information and match it point to point on facts, not what you're "given" as final opinion.

Dare I say "I" clearly posted, wrote that the article offered half the data, and thus manipulated the same to the end?

We need to clear the facts from the non facts...

Let's begin with actual ridership? Yes, no?

The reporter states on final opinion that the SD system only benefits a little less than 25,000 riders a day, right? That's 175.000 a week...

He himself provides the facts that unlike the "supposed" 200,000 riders for the actual Line 1 , it falls short to the tune of only 50,643 (even when OPRET offered a 200,000 figure for complete "all lines" of the Metro system and not the single Line 1), riders and then goes to say that it only benefits 25,000 people a day?????!!!!??????? I guess I went to a Mathematical bachillerato for nothing on adding and stuff on that line...

It goes to say that the IDB figures put the km costs for the SD Metro higher than the cost per Km by OPRET figures, and here is the caveat: BASED on actual external loans extended and contracted under the Metro construction terms... So that means we should call all the elevated trams and underpasses, pavement, sidewalks, etc... Those were rebuilt as the Metro went along "Metro infrastructure" therefore they're part of the stations???????

You really need to be more critical and careful of what you accept as trusted news Mr. Lu...

This article is riddle with half the data it needs to provide a real and critical view/report on the facts behind the SD Metro.

Was it done on a biased view or position? Who knows! But one thing I do know is that it lacks more than what it offers to readers from a news worth article of critical information...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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After reading this I think I trust DR1 more. Why should we think that Pichardo knows better?

Read the article yet again and compare the figures it provides as I pointed to Mr. Lu above...

Maybe I should bring a PDF link to the report made by the IDB and used in the report by the "reporter"?????

Where details as "minor" as what the targeted loans went to pay for during the construction of the SD Metro Line 1, provide the other half of the critical data missing here all around in the "educated" article...

Like I said, omitting half the data is the same as misinformation based on cut and paste data, when it serves your end intention...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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That is of course if you could find a single (1) (uno)(una)(one) instance where OPRET detailed that LINE 1 was expected to have a 200,000 ridership volume alone!!!!!!

We have a tremendous problem in our news reporter's abilities, to discern and be critical on information they use and base their articles on.

The reporter missed plenty opportunities to point out how the IDB presented the figures on the costs per km constructed of the SD Metro. I know so because that report was made available months ago to the public. I read the report and it matched the loans disbursements made by the gov to contractors.

It also detailed the peripheral expenses/sub contracts acquired under each loan capacity. There one can clearly see the actual Metro critical investments as well as those called as "co-projects" like the ones I described here.

Now! The question is that the reporter here in the article, is actually basing his report on the very same IDB data I also know of. How can he use the data manipulating the facts to one end, while omitting the facts as stated when needed?