Thats because A-Rod is bigger than baseball. Remember the anouncement in game 4 of the world series. How about Andy Petit signing a day before the report comes out. How about Miguel Tejada getting traded a day before the report comes out. Does anyone think these are all flukes. Not me.
- Thread starter Berzin
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Mitchell report...
Thats because A-Rod is bigger than baseball. Remember the anouncement in game 4 of the world series. How about Andy Petit signing a day before the report comes out. How about Miguel Tejada getting traded a day before the report comes out. Does anyone think these are all flukes. Not me.
I understand your point but the reality is that no one other than a players' trainer or whomever else was supplying and injecting the stuff for him would know for sure what the player was doing.
So if the guy tells what he knows under the duress of potential prison time and he still refuses to talk, then what good is that doing anyone?
Would you rather not know? Unfortunately the characters that are close to these activities aren't choirboys, they are trying to save their asses from jail.
That doesn't mean what they are saying isn't true. Jose Canseco may not be a sympathetic character, and he was dismissed by almost everyone as a bitter person who was angry at baseball. But if anyone should know what was going on it would be him.
I for one am not at all comfortable with having the media throw Barry Bonds under the bus as the poster child for the steroids era when he has Hall of Fame caliber peers who have done the same things he has.
Its' about time that bloated steroid puppy Clemens was outed.
Having played professional football in the 70's and having dabbled in steroids (like 80+% of players did back then, using a crude, by today's standards, drug: dianabol), I can assure you that steroids do enhance performance. But will, over time, weaken connective tissue and kill. I could tell stories about college linemen drafted in April weighing 240 and reporting to camp in July at 280 :surprised...and it wasn't because of protein powder and the gym...
They may not directly impact eye-hand coordination, but they WILL increase strength and bat speed for the "hands" get to where the "eyes" say the ball will be, ensuring better contact. Additionally, the additional strength can turn a routine fly ball into an extra-base hit, and allow for better ball throwing.
But there is one area about steroids that no one ever discusses: healing. One of the biggest reasons athletes like them is because they increase recovery time and heal injuries faster (just ask why Walter Peyton rarely missed a start, but died young, and why Roger Clemens played so long without lasting injury...).
The impact that steroids have on athletes is very misunderstood.
The ONLY way to get steroids out of sports is to ban users for life at all levels of competition. Although I WOULD enjoy an All Steroid American Football League. The thought of 450lb. muscle-bound freaks knocking heads would be like a video game. And the on-screen player profile would include their steroid cycles, besides their ht/wt/school...:cheeky:
Looks like MLB will have to add a new, large line item to the HOF budget: asterisks...:cheeky:
I'm guessing the same can be said for Manny, Ortiz and Schilling, BUT Mitchell has zero interest in sharing that... one would assume. No connection at all, a fool would say.
I AM a Yankee fan. No shame in that.
It sucks that Clemens brought that crap into the clubhouse. If you read the report, HE brought it there. He was worse than Bonds, if you read the report.
Now for ALL of the Bonds detractors to suddenly shut up and make excuses for Clemens, it stinks of many things. Barry Bonds has got to be laughing his ass off. They brought baseball down trying to get him.
Selig is a complete joke.
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Further info please
Very interesting but it leaves me with more questions than answers!
Payton was well known as the most disciplined hardest training football player known to anyone at that time. The only game he missed was right after arthroscopic surgery
I recall speculation on how anyone could be as good as Payton, but absolutely no links to steroids were ever proffered
You accuse Payton of steroid use; could you provide a verified medical or legal link to anything that backs up your assertion? I really feel you have spoken poorly of a man that passed untimely from PSC (An autoimmune disease that attacks your own body) and cancer of the bile duct, it would be appropriate if you can justify such allegations
Who did you play for in the NFL? The "70's" is a very long time, do you recall who, when and what position?
Thanks and I agree with much you say, but I hope you are wrong about Walter
Very interesting but it leaves me with more questions than answers!
Payton was well known as the most disciplined hardest training football player known to anyone at that time. The only game he missed was right after arthroscopic surgery
I recall speculation on how anyone could be as good as Payton, but absolutely no links to steroids were ever proffered
You accuse Payton of steroid use; could you provide a verified medical or legal link to anything that backs up your assertion? I really feel you have spoken poorly of a man that passed untimely from PSC (An autoimmune disease that attacks your own body) and cancer of the bile duct, it would be appropriate if you can justify such allegations
Who did you play for in the NFL? The "70's" is a very long time, do you recall who, when and what position?
Thanks and I agree with much you say, but I hope you are wrong about Walter
This is not an attack on you, so please don't take it that way. I will be speaking in general terms here about a certain attitude that is pervasive amongst some non-believers.
What I will refer to is this "proof" that people need about steroid use. Certainly there is no way one can know for sure unless there is an admission of guilt by the user, and all we've gotten are denials.
Now here is a man who claims to have played pro football back in the days. He certainly does not sound like he has an axe to grind, just stating what he experienced. I would take the word of an ex-pro athlete any day over someone who doesn't know and wants to pretend it doesn't exist.(Again, not referring to you-just making a general point)
As for Walter Payton, just look at the disease he died from. Yes, he was hard-working and incredibly conditioned. But steroids have been around since the 1950s. Arnold even admitted to taking them in the early 1970s while he was bodybuilding. So they were there all along. The difference now is that the drug regimens are more sophisticated.
What annoys me the most is having someone like Clemens yak on and on about how hard he works as if he's the only one with a disciplined strength training regimen. But when you look at his improbable torso, that is not the work of a gym rat in his 40s, yet no one has ever publicly questioned him on it. But everyone goes on and on about how big Barry's' head is.
We need to be doubtful about what we see because as it comes to light we cannot and should not believe it. It is not only the marginal players trying to hang on to that last place on the roster.
These guys are the elite of their profession. If they were juicing, what pray tell were the other guys doing, those not as talented who have even more of an incentive to hang on to their tenuous positions on a team by injecting themselves with steroids?
Giambi'ed
Ortiz was released (non-tendered). The Sox took a flier on him and it worked out well. Giambi's - they are NOT. Schilling had a couple rings before he came to the World Champions and was not coming off any career year, looking to cash in.
Perhaps my head is in the clouds, but to think that Mitchell would gloss over any World Champion players because he's on their board of directors is rather foolhardy don't you think? For a man who's entire career is based on his integrity, claiming he avoided outing World Champions is ludicrous.
I doubt Bonds has laughed much lately, and the Mitchell report is of no concern to him at this point. His career is over, and worse yet, this fool had the chance to tell the truth and walk away cleared. His arrogance - something very well documented and equally (and not surprisingly) proportionate to his being despised by many in the game - is what he's on trial for.
There were at least a half dozen former players of the World Champions named. This isn't about bashing teams, it's about the sport's warts, laundry be damned.
Manny was always good. He didn't have a "Giambi" or "Tejada" year and get a huge contract, he was the career leader in a variety of Indians offensive categories before the World Champions signed him. My guess is that he'd run from a needle.
Ortiz was released (non-tendered). The Sox took a flier on him and it worked out well. Giambi's - they are NOT. Schilling had a couple rings before he came to the World Champions and was not coming off any career year, looking to cash in.
Perhaps my head is in the clouds, but to think that Mitchell would gloss over any World Champion players because he's on their board of directors is rather foolhardy don't you think? For a man who's entire career is based on his integrity, claiming he avoided outing World Champions is ludicrous.
I doubt Bonds has laughed much lately, and the Mitchell report is of no concern to him at this point. His career is over, and worse yet, this fool had the chance to tell the truth and walk away cleared. His arrogance - something very well documented and equally (and not surprisingly) proportionate to his being despised by many in the game - is what he's on trial for.
There were at least a half dozen former players of the World Champions named. This isn't about bashing teams, it's about the sport's warts, laundry be damned.
No "legal/medical" link, ID, just a lot of chat among people who have seen steroid use, and recognize the pattern in other guys. It's a personal issue for me, not just fan rage over cheating. When Payton went public, there was a lot of immediate back-channel discussion with raised eyebrows.
Payton wasn't the only one. There were many, many more. Steve Courson, Lyle Alzado, John Matuszak (a college teammate), David Logan, are just a few who come to mind who were higher profile. And it's not just football players, and it's not just pro's. It goes down to H.S. players, too. Most aren't household names. At one time in the NFL there were 4 users for every guy who didn't...you felt a serious need to stay competitive.
Nobody dies of chronic steroid use. It's always something else, tumors, enlarged heart, liver damage, stroke, blood clots, etc...even suicide. And there is no test to show that ~todays~ disease or cause of death was related to steroid use 10-20 years ago. Heck, just this year I lost two college teammates who used steroids heavily, one with a brain tumor (Alzado?), one with liver disease...and he didn't drink.
And if they don't kill you, they can disfigure and cause ligament and tendon ruptures, since muscles get stronger but not their supporting casts.
I've seen it with my own eyes. When you're young, have a fantastic body and earn $$$ with it as an athlete, you think you're bullet proof and will do ~anything~ to be even better. Steroids look like the Holy Grail to many.
Thank you for not attacking me personally, but I would have preferred that than a libelous attack on a great human being no longer able to defend himself.
Please accept my apology if I don?t take the words of someone who ?claims? he played pro ball (But fails to supply specifics?) to that of Coaches, players and family members that I personally know regarding Walter
You say look at what he died from? I and many others have looked to no avail, he suffered from Cancer of the bile Duct (NOT a disease EVER linked to steroids) and further complicated by PSC, a disease that is ironically treated with steroids! The PSC is an autoimmune disease that made a liver transplant impossible, despite thousands of people who knew Walter ?only? as a player offering to donate a ?section? of their own liver.
I suggest you look to Loyola Medical center where Walter was diagnosed, not inflammatory rhetoric by someone who believes he is on a mission to protect people from steroid use, when in fact he has done nothing but libel one of the most honest, hardworking charitable men in the history of football.
You need only to read what others have said about Walter, the practical joker of the locker room, the low key man who supported too many charities to mention, the man who wouldn?t raise his voice no matter the situation, the man that gave everything he had to Chicago and was denied an opportunity to score a final touchdown in the Superbowl; rhoid rage, if anything he showed more humility than any man I ever had the honor of meeting.
Again, I challenge anyone to submit any type of proof regarding Payton using any type of steroids (With the exception of any possibly prescribed once PSC was diagnosed, long after he retired) or I would ask that you admit just maybe you got carried away when you find that there are truly gifted and incredibly hard working athletes that would run at the thought of taking steroids.
Again, ?Back channel? gossip by someone that may or may not have played Pro Ball is hardly akin to substance one would use to accuse a Hall of Fame Running back of cheating and or illegal drug use.
Please don?t bother to pick apart wording of ?illegal, drug use and such,? look only to your accusations regarding Payton as a whole.
Should you feel it necessary to continue to cast aspersions without having any knowledge other than a high school locker room conversation, I suggest you look at who you are talking about before publishing such trash, there are many that obviously deserve such scrutiny or accusations, Walter Payton was not one of them
FWIW, one of my college teammates was one of the starting OL for the Bears when Walter Payton played.
And several DR1ers know me personally.
I am talking about steroids, not players character. Back then steroids weren't the big deal as today, they were part of the scenery, part of the game. They were everywhere.
Time for an injection of "being DR related" .....for me the enigma in all of this report is the puzzling absence of Mr Sammy Sosa. His name only appears in reference to a letter that Mitchell sent to his lawyer asking specific questions about steroids use. Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, and Gary Sheffield were also sent this letter and none replied.
I find it puzzling because Sosa was one of those players in the middle of the action, be it breaking home runs records along with McGuire, Bonds....:surprised
I find it puzzling because Sosa was one of those players in the middle of the action, be it breaking home runs records along with McGuire, Bonds....:surprised
La verdad......
AAAAAAAND don't get me started with the "I Hate A-Rod" Forum!!.
Out of all the names on the Mitchell report, the only one that surprises me is Andy Pettite.
ALLL the others, I am not surprised at all.
So, was CheaterPalmerio right about Tejada or what?.
MOST of them WILL deny it....In no time they will find out that it's "guilty until proven innocent"....ANNNND even if "proven innocent" MOST people will still think they are guilty.
A black eye for baseball, that's for sure.
I bet Bonds is in a corner laughing his AXX off.....He is problably thinking: "Shyt, I guess I am NOT the only cheater out there....Finally, some pressure off me, there's a God!!".
True....Sometimes I wonder if this forum should be re-named: The so-called World "SUCKS" Champions vs The Yankees Forum?.
AAAAAAAND don't get me started with the "I Hate A-Rod" Forum!!.
Out of all the names on the Mitchell report, the only one that surprises me is Andy Pettite.
ALLL the others, I am not surprised at all.
So, was CheaterPalmerio right about Tejada or what?.
MOST of them WILL deny it....In no time they will find out that it's "guilty until proven innocent"....ANNNND even if "proven innocent" MOST people will still think they are guilty.
A black eye for baseball, that's for sure.
I bet Bonds is in a corner laughing his AXX off.....He is problably thinking: "Shyt, I guess I am NOT the only cheater out there....Finally, some pressure off me, there's a God!!".
Manny's the only one I'd regret putting out there. I'll stand by the others.
He might be a nice guy, and feel-good ambassador, but Ortiz' numbers are a joke. Here, for your own eyes. Why should suspicion for his sudden number increase be viewed anything less than suspicious? ESPN - David Ortiz Stats, News, Photos - Boston Red Sox - MLB Baseball We all joke about the body changes for Sosa, Bonds, etc? ESPN or HBO's Bob Costas, I forget which, is running a feature on Ortiz. See the variance in body style from Minnesota to Boston yourself. It's on video there.
Re: Mitchell. It is very interesting that they based much of this report on the words of two NY baseball trainers, out of 30 teams???
So, you mean Selig couldn't get a former or current Milwaukee Brewers trainer to speak up???
You mean Mr. Red Sox Director, Mitchell, couldn't get a former or current Boston trainer to contribute???
I mean, both of these men are the ultimate insiders with the clout to get people to speak. Trainers AREN'T under the player's union. They CHOSE not to expand the focus past these two trainer dudes and Balco. Southern California was a haven for this stuff. Not in this report.
So again, now what? EVERYTHING and EVERYONE will be deemed as not credible, including A-Rod and Pujols. This started with a witch hunt for Bonds, and they opened up Pandora's box.
To end with something DR-related, Sammy Sosa chose not to speak. But actions speak louder than words. It shows how low in esteem Sammy is regarded around the league where even a roid and HGH abuser like Jose Guillen can get a $36 million contract, but teams won't even mention Sammy's name in any context of a conversation, much less thinking about contacting him to fill an open spot.
Ya me sacaron el "almario"...
Now, about your comment about CheaterSosa....you are right....Just like his "amigo", CheaterMcGwire, they don't have to "talk" for MOST people to think they indeed had "juice" for breakfast!!.
Now, they are ALLLLL playing stupid, saying that if they did something wrong, that they didn't know what they were doing.
At least one, Santangelo, have the balls to say, today, that he indeed used steroids and taht he knew what he was doing something wrong.
Granted, that cheater also denied and denied he ever used them.....AND even spoke against those using it!.....But at least NOW he is coming clean.
Shhhhh...No lo digas duro, bugarron, no quiero que nadie lo sepa....Wahahahahahaha!.
Now, about your comment about CheaterSosa....you are right....Just like his "amigo", CheaterMcGwire, they don't have to "talk" for MOST people to think they indeed had "juice" for breakfast!!.
Now, they are ALLLLL playing stupid, saying that if they did something wrong, that they didn't know what they were doing.
At least one, Santangelo, have the balls to say, today, that he indeed used steroids and taht he knew what he was doing something wrong.
Granted, that cheater also denied and denied he ever used them.....AND even spoke against those using it!.....But at least NOW he is coming clean.