Now that's more like it!

[Keith R]

Well, Nals, if we're going to discuss SD's "needs," then we can can dismiss the metro and the artificial island, because neither are needs, and both will divert money from real urban needs. For much less than the metro will cost, SD could fix & improve the the bus system, clean up the Malecon, create some bike/jogging/skating lanes along the Malecon (as Rio did), create better traffic management, and even set up a few more parks. :tired:

 

[NALs]

Well, Nals, if we're going to discuss SD's "needs," then we can can dismiss the metro and the artificial island, because neither are needs, and both will divert money from real urban needs. For much less than the metro will cost, SD could fix & improve the the bus system, clean up the Malecon, create some bike/jogging/skating lanes along the Malecon (as Rio did), create better traffic management, and even set up a few more parks. :tired:

I'm with you on the metro deal, yes it will divert money away from other needs.

However, the island is PRIVATELY FUNDED, which means that if we don't get this investment then its gone. It's not going to be redirected to any other Dominican related thing, it will be gone, zippo, nada.

Think of it this way, if somebody gives you wealth (whether its cash, goods, whatever) for doing absolutely nothing, will you turn it down? My guess would be no.

That is where Santo Domingo stands right now. We are being offered free investments, so why would we reject it?

If we don't take it, that money for the island WILL NOT be used for anything else, at least not here in the DR.

 

[Keith R]

Think of it this way, if somebody gives you wealth (whether its cash, goods, whatever) for doing absolutely nothing, will you turn it down? My guess would be no.

Nals, NO ONE gives you wealth for nothing, especially not in the DR. Even you must know that. So please, spare me that kind of sophistry.

 

[NALs]

Nals, NO ONE gives you wealth for nothing, especially not in the DR. Even you must know that. So please, spare me that kind of sophistry.

You prefer that we deny that multi-million dollar investment when in fact we never asked for it?

I wonder what would happen when we do ask for a multi-million dollar investment, hopefully our pride of pushing away foreign investment now will not hamper us in the future!

Look, there is one thing certain in life that is that there is only opportunity. The only thing people have to do is be ready for when that opportunity comes.

The samething applies to countries, cities, etc. We have this opportunity to appropriate a project that most cities wish was thrown upon them like its being proposed to SDQ! We have to pay not one cent, we will get a new sea view, a new beach, more investment, higher property values, more tourist dollars, more new residents cash, and plenty of attention from foreign media and you suggest we pass this up?

If so, then maybe we should had passed up when Sea Horse Ranch was being developed! Or maybe, when all those small stores and restaurants filling Sosua. Or maybe, we should have rejected all those other projects that have been started by foreign investment and have benefited the country!

We are being offered a project that countries the world over would die for. Not just that, I am sure there are plenty of cities that want a development company to say "we want to invest in your city a project that includes public and private places, new attraction, new attention, and higher property values and you have to put ZERO cents."

Yet, here is SDQ being offered such thing! Hmmm, I say let's take the opportunity while the door is still open!

This is equivalent to a Dominican child being given the opportunity to play major leagues. Will that child turn that opportunity down for the sake of putting it down? I don't think so.

Think of that child as SDQ and think of the opportunity as new attention from the world to the point of creating a tourist trail that includes Santo Domingo as THE DESTINATION not as a side trip from the resort.

 

[Chirimoya]

On the question of parks, the point is that while the Miradores, Botanico and Zoo are all excellent and serve their purpose well, people need small neighbourhood parks. In other countries I've lived in people use these parks on a daily basis, not just on weekends, especially when they have children.

Name me one neighbourhood that has a small public park. I can only think of the green areas in Ensanche Seralles which are very nice indeed, but struggle to think of one in any of the other neighbourhoods I am familiar with.

Unless you live in the areas adjacent to the Mirador Sur, every time you want to take your child to a park you need to get in a car and drive, adding to the horrible congestion. The stressful drive back home cancels out any benefit you might have got from exercising or relaxing in the park. That's if you have a car.

If you can afford a private social club or playground, fine, but what about all the families who can't? That's what I mean by "democratic". All children need to play in healthy open spaces, not only those with parents with high incomes and vehicles. That, unfortunately, is the case in Santo Domingo.

I have noticed the Zona Oriental has some such public parks, so the urban planners were on the right lines there. Sadly, though, most of them are shabby and uncared for. That's another story...

 

[Mr_DR]

His plan would not work in this country because Dominicans that can have a car to show off are not going to trade it for a two wheel bicycles.

The only people that you see walking are those ones that cant afford a bicycle. The ones you see on Bicycles are the ones that cant afford a motorcycle and the ones you see on motorcyles are the ones that can't afford a car to show off.

A car is the perfect "baja panties" but a bicycle won't even get you a smile from a teethless granny.

 

[Tordok]

Chiri, Dolores, et al...THANKS! for this thread.

SD has Western traditions etched into its centuries-old buildings and cozy open spaces. The Iberian modes of "plaza mayor" and "plazas menores" where the standard in most of Santo Domingo's lifetime. Until the mid and late XXth century, SD was a very small city.

The waves of construction booms in SD have put little thought into preserving or creating places conducive to real community living. A "good walk on the park" is encoded in the human.... "Build them and they will come"...

Communities with parks or attractive walkways are always more livable.

- Tordok

 

[Chirimoya]

I'd heard of those unfortunate souls who are unable to pull without the aid of an inanimate object, Mr_DR. I hope you're not one of them.

 

[juancarlos]

I agree with most of what Pe?alosa stated. I believe cities should be for walking in order to better admire their beauty. People need people and when you need the car for everything, you are isolated. Cities should be centers of civilization. Walking, along with a good public transportation system, should characterize most major livable cities. To that you should add nice plazas or parks and wide sidewalks and architecture that is pleasant to the eye.

 

[Keith R]

Brasilia was an attempt at re-inventing a new urban model and that city still puts emphasis on the automobile.

Ah, you've raised something I know a fair bit about -- I looked at the history, design & planning of Brasilia while in college, and I have visited numerous times since 1979, the year in which I walked -- yes, walked -- much of it. As a matter of fact, I just returned from Brasilia 3 weeks ago.

Brasilia's over-reliance on motor vehicles has been recognized as a flaw since the first world oil crisis in the early 1970s, but in 1956 -- when planning began, the price of oil was a non-issue. SD does not have that luxury; it cannot continue to pretend that it can grow without thinking about transport consequences.

Brasilia recognized and accepted long ago that it needed an efficient bus system to overcome the design problem. I know, I have utilized that system many times. Leonel tried to bring such a system to SD during his first term, when I was living in SD. I thought at the time it was one of the best things his Administration did. Unfortunately, Hippo nearly dismantled it. If Leonel is truly serious about improving transportation & the quality of life in SD and reducing congestion, fixing that bus system should be his top priority, not building this wasteful boondoggle of a metro.

Other than the highway-like "streets," Brasilia's planning has worked pretty well, and it has evolved into a very livable city. One of the things Brasilia has done over the years is foster a nice city park and various green areas, and in some parts, even bicycle paths.

I'm sure you meant the remark about Brasilia to be a put-down, but in the process only showed how shallow your knowledge of it is.

 

[Keith R]

To further highlight the difference in Brazilian and Dominican visions on fostering livable urban development, there's the newsbrief copied below (which, because of its brievity and the acknowledgement, fits fair use guidelines). In essence, the Cities Ministry of Brazil recently decided to provide incentives to municipalities to create and maintain special bike lanes ("ciclovias") to promote greater use of bicycles. The program is budgeted at R$62 million (about US$24 million).

http://www.viaecologica.com.br/noticias/noticia.asp?ordem=3528

17/2/2005 - 10:45 - Constru??o de ciclovias ser? estimulada pelo Minist?rio das Cidades

O ministro Ol?vio Dutra, das Cidades, pretende incentivar a cria??o de ciclovias em todo o pa?s, com um projeto a ser lan?ado ainda este ano. O diretor do Departamento de Mobilidade Urbana do Minist?rio das Cidades, Renato Buareto, informou hoje ? ABr que a id?ia ? financiar projetos que incentivem o uso da bicicleta principalmente nos deslocamentos de pequenas dist?ncias. O Brasil possui apenas 600 quil?metros de ciclovias, o que ? muito pouco se comparado ? frota nacional que ? hoje de 50 milh?es de bicicletas. O Minist?rio das Cidades vai lan?ar ainda este ano o Manual de Planejamento Ciclovi?rio com informa??es de como planejar uma ciclovia, sinaliza??o, e seguran?a para os usu?rios desse tipo de transporte. "O que n?s queremos ? incentivar os munic?pios a adotarem a bicicleta. N?s vamos disponibilizar para as prefeituras todas as informa??es necess?rias para inserir a bicicleta de maneira segura. O uso da bicicleta no Brasil ? uma realidade em muitos munic?pios. O manual dar? ?s prefeituras acesso a informa??es de como planejar uma rede integrada envolvendo outros tipos de transportes al?m da bicicleta, como ?nibus e trens". Em Bras?lia, o governo local fez paceria com a organiza??o n?o-governamental Rodas da Paz para implantar ciclovias em diferentes pontos do Distrito Federal.

 

[juancarlos]

Yea, I see they want increase the number of bycicle lanes and and they want to make it part of an integrated transportation system, connected to buses and trains. In Brasilia the govt. has partnered with a non-govt. organization in order to install these bike lanes in different parts of the city. They think the 600km of bike lanes is too little for the more than 50 million bikes in the country.

Interesting to see how things finally turn out.

 

[Criss Colon]

I Want To Sit On A Bench On The Malecon,And look Out At The WATER!

Not look out at some highrise buildings,I can "turn around" and do that just fine!
Thank God THAT "island" will NEVER happen,nor the "Metro" either!
At least not if "Good Urban Planning" is used as the criteria,and not just "Dominican Governmental Corruption"!
"Hey!",Maybe they WILL be built after all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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