Nuclear Power for the DR?

[Keith R]

Folks, the thread topic is nuclear power and the DR -- not the PRD, Balaguer, corruption, hydroelectric power -- unless directly related to thread topic. Keep on topic or this thread will close.

The Environment Forum Moderator :glasses:

 

[principe]

I agree with wind

Toronto I had placed a thread in the business forum, "Why" precisely with GE in mind. However, not only was the response minimal perhaps the wrong location for the thread, but I was also discouraged by some as to the wind mill proposal due to its great cost. Honestly, the DR could perhaps shell out 10 million for the first ten mills,and build up albeit slowly, an independent energy source over a span on 10 years.

 

[Keith R]

My Two Cents...

In a post back at the beginning of 2003, I derided Hippo for going to Argentina and consulting the Argentines about setting up nuclear power plants in the DR, even after being told it would cost the DR billions upon billions to do. To spare you from having to look up the post, I'll recount here the reasons I cited that why this idea is insane:

(a) the country is regularly hit by hurricanes;
(b) the country lies on a fault that occassionally brings earthquakes;
(c) the DR is not known for adhering to construction specifications nor properly maintaining structures once built;
(d) the DR has no real nuclear engineers;
(e) the DR has chronic difficulty paying for petroleum-powered plants, much less the expense of properly operating a nuclear plant;
(f) the country cannot manage its household trash cannot be expected to safely manage its radioactive waste;
(g) the DR has manifold smuggling and security risks (so no worries about nuclear diversion, right?! NOT!)

Need more reasons not to contemplate nuclear power in the DR? I have a long list! :tired:

Best Regards,
Keith

 

[Mirador]

Keith,

About your first two points, there are nuclear power plants in Florida (Huricanes) and in California (earthquakes), for example.

On the others points, the proposal being considered involves a complete turn-key operation, which means all construction and operation would be foreign, provided by the supplier. Of course, some laws would have to be tweaked... The project would be entirely financed by the supplier, based on an open-ended concession. Security and operation is covered by established international conventions.

Mirador

 

[Guatiao]

I believe building a nuclear facility is risky & dangerous, but the energy problem needs to be resolved. With the current rise in fossil fuels the DR economy will suffer, we as a nation need to look onto the future and a nuclear facility can be the answer. Even though it seems like a big investment I believe it will be cheaper in the long run, if a government ever decide to build one, they should consult & ask for help from other foreign governments most notably the United States, France & Lithuania. Also the DR can build a school/ small college just for nuclear technology.
I remember reading (forgot the newspaper) that Leonel?s government plans to build 200 new hydro plants to alleviate the energy crises but I wonder if it will ever be done.
I believe the DR should invest on other power sources, GE wind mills are a great example, if a government wants to build it they should consult with environmentalists and build them where less birds would be affected. Solar power is great and should be experimented in small villages, maybe Dominican scientists can advance the technology and DR can have another income.

I just know this [chart below] cannot be continued with the current economic "crises" and world FFs prices.
Electricity - production by source (fossil fuel): 92%
Electricity - production by source (hydro): 7.6%
Electricity - production by source (nuclear): 0%
Electricity - production by source (other): 0.4% (2001)
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/dr/ and http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

 

[Argo]

Keith,

About your first two points, there are nuclear power plants in Florida (Huricanes) and in California (earthquakes), for example.

On the others points, the proposal being considered involves a complete turn-key operation, which means all construction and operation would be foreign, provided by the supplier. Of course, some laws would have to be tweaked... The project would be entirely financed by the supplier, based on an open-ended concession. Security and operation is covered by established international conventions.

Mirador

Security and construction covered by international convention? Could you enlighten me and give the participants

It's pretty obvious French, Soviet plants are not on par with US for security. French plants are built beside the highway with only a "cow fence" surronding them, Soviet planst gave a disturbing habit of "cooking off", so where is the safety in these "conventions"

Didn't ANYONE get the sarcasm in my post about graphite reactors????

 

[Keith R]

Keith,

About your first two points, there are nuclear power plants in Florida (Huricanes) and in California (earthquakes), for example.

On the others points, the proposal being considered involves a complete turn-key operation, which means all construction and operation would be foreign, provided by the supplier. Of course, some laws would have to be tweaked... The project would be entirely financed by the supplier, based on an open-ended concession. Security and operation is covered by established international conventions.

Mirador

Mirador, with all due respect, I have yet to see any installation of any sort built, operated and maintained in the DR to the same specs and quality control as in the U.S. Such quality control is all the more critical in nuclear installations.

Yeah, there are nuclear plants in FL and CA. But get real! The licensing, building safety requirements, emergency planning requirements, regulatory oversight and security provisions are far, far different from what you will find in DR. Please do not pretend otherwise.

Security and operation covered by international conventions???? Surely you don't mean IAEA conventions? I am familiar with the IAEA instruments, whether conventions, recommendations or resolutions. They have not stopped some real bonehead nuclear plants with poor security from being operated in IAEA member states. And please, get real. How many international conventions does the DR sign and ratify yet actually implement, much less implement faithfully???? There are many prior examples in the EHS (environment, health and safety) field where the DR has not met its international commitments. Why assume that nuclear power would be handled differently?

Regards,
Keith

 

[Toronto2inDR]

Another interesting point is that at the current rate of consumption we will exhaust the worlds oil reserves by the year 2079, about 75 years. As it gets harder to find and recover oil the price will naturally skyrocket so the time to make changes is now before the situation becomes critical.

It?s true that most of us will never see that day but that is no excuse to ignore the situation. Other governments understand this and are doing something about it. Car manufacturers continue to try and improve alternative fuel vehicles so people will accept them because the end of the party is near.

 

[Jon S.]

Ain't that the truth.....

In a post back at the beginning of 2003, I derided Hippo for going to Argentina and consulting the Argentines about setting up nuclear power plants in the DR, even after being told it would cost the DR billions upon billions to do. To spare you from having to look up the post, I'll recount here the reasons I cited that why this idea is insane:


(d) the DR has no real nuclear engineers;
(e) the DR has chronic difficulty paying for petroleum-powered plants, much less the expense of properly operating a nuclear plnt;
(f) the country cannot manage its household trash cannot be expected to safely manage its radioactive waste;
(g) the DR has manifold smuggling and security risks (so no worries about nuclear diversion, right?! NOT!)

Need more reasons not to contemplate nuclear power in the DR? I have a long list? :tired:

Best Regards,
Keith

Damn right Keith, I agree with you on all of them except D, because I met a Dominican professor that was trained in the USSR, back in the 70s and 80s he was sent to Russia by Balaguer to study. He chose to become a nuclear physicist. The guy is a genius. He put all the other professors to shame in the vocational school I was going to at the time even though half of them had degrees from different American institutions of higher learning like Syracuse, Rutgers, etc...... The school was called Instituto Dominicano de Tecnologia, kinda corny sound to it but top-notch instructors in electricity, electro-mechanical, structural and industrial engineering. But there are a few (less than 15) nuclear engineers in the DR, from what the professor told me.

 

[NALs]

(a) the country is regularly hit by hurricanes;

So does Florida and yet, they hall nuclear power up and down the peninsula.

(b) the country lies on a fault that occassionally brings earthquakes;

So does California and they have nuclear in many places and nothing have happened.

(c) the DR is not known for adhering to construction specifications nor properly maintaining structures once built;

Wasn't South Florida destroyed by Hurricane Andrew because of SHABBY CONSTRUCTION, maybe the DR is not the only place of not following specifications, then again, who said Dominican engineers and architects were going to be the designers of such structures?

Foreigners who have more experience with such structures will be the designers, just how foreigners design and built the Juan Bosch Bridge, the 27 de Febrero espresso tunnels, Autopista Duarte, etc etc etc.

(d) the DR has no real nuclear engineers;

We will import the brain power needed to sustain the system.

(e) the DR has chronic difficulty paying for petroleum-powered plants, much less the expense of properly operating a nuclear plnt;

With the overabundance of electricity the nuclear plants would produce, the DR can sell power to our ever increasing power hungry neighbors like Cuba, Haiti, Puerto Rico, etc. There is money to be made with this deal also.

(f) the country cannot manage its household trash cannot be expected to safely manage its radioactive waste;

We'll get foreigners to do that task just to keep people's nerves at tolerable levels.

(g) the DR has manifold smuggling and security risks (so no worries about nuclear diversion, right?! NOT!)

So does the US. BTW, there was a Cuban lady who recently smuggled her self into the US from the Bahamas via DHL Delivery service, literally. She actually put herself in a box and mailed herself (airmail and all) to some address in south Florida. Now, if there are real checks (this happened recently btw), why was she not discovered by the bomb sniffing dogs? The security checks? The X-Ray scanning machines?

And yet, the US has plenty of nuclear power plants, many of them right in Florida! And about the smuggling, it is estimated that up to 4 million illegal immigrants are smuggled into the US each year through the US/Mexican border.

My point is that if the US has the same smuggling and security risks the DR has, so why can't the DR do the samething the US does to satisfy its electricity demand?

Need more reasons not to contemplate nuclear power in the DR? I have a long list? :tired:

Sure, I would like to find a reason for why the DR should not use nuclear, but it has to be a real unique reason, not something that the US (and France, Italy, Spain, etc) also has and yet they use nuclear.

 

[Argo]

One simple reason

So does Florida and yet, they hall nuclear power up and down the peninsula.


So does California and they have nuclear in many places and nothing have happened.


Wasn't South Florida destroyed by Hurricane Andrew because of SHABBY CONSTRUCTION, maybe the DR is not the only place of not following specifications, then again, who said Dominican engineers and architects were going to be the designers of such structures?

Foreigners who have more experience with such structures will be the designers, just how foreigners design and built the Juan Bosch Bridge, the 27 de Febrero espresso tunnels, Autopista Duarte, etc etc etc.


We will import the brain power needed to sustain the system.


With the overabundance of electricity the nuclear plants would produce, the DR can sell power to our ever increasing power hungry neighbors like Cuba, Haiti, Puerto Rico, etc. There is money to be made with this deal also.


We'll get foreigners to do that task just to keep people's nerves at tolerable levels.


So does the US. BTW, there was a Cuban lady who recently smuggled her self into the US from the Bahamas via DHL Delivery service, literally. She actually put herself in a box and mailed herself (airmail and all) to some address in south Florida. Now, if there are real checks (this happened recently btw), why was she not discovered by the bomb sniffing dogs? The security checks? The X-Ray scanning machines?

And yet, the US has plenty of nuclear power plants, many of them right in Florida! And about the smuggling, it is estimated that up to 4 million illegal immigrants are smuggled into the US each year through the US/Mexican border.

My point is that if the US has the same smuggling and security risks the DR has, so why can't the DR do the samething the US does to satisfy its electricity demand?


Sure, I would like to find a reason for why the DR should not use nuclear, but it has to be a real unique reason, not something that the US (and France, Italy, Spain, etc) also has and yet they use nuclear.

Best reason of all: The US does'nt want an irresponsible thrid World nation that they don't trust with anything so sensitive as having anything to do with Nuclear power in it's (USA) backyard, therefore you just ain't gona get it !

Ever wonder why the DR militray gest "dumbded down" military equipment from overseas suppliers?

 

[Narcosis]

Best reason of all: The US does'nt want an irresponsible thrid World nation that they don't trust with anything so sensitive as having anything to do with Nuclear power in it's (USA) backyard, therefore you just ain't gona get it !

Ever wonder why the DR militray gest "dumbded down" military equipment from overseas suppliers?

Your arrogance is ridiculous at best. I suppose you speak for the US government when you make this statement?

The decision lies with the Dominican people and it's government.

Like it has been stated before, offers for investments have been made already and have been declined for reasons other than the ones you state.

 

[Argo]

Your arrogance is ridiculous at best. I suppose you speak for the US government when you make this statement?

The decision lies with the Dominican people and it's government.

Like it has been stated before, offers for investments have been made already and have been declined for reasons other than the ones you state.

IS that sort of like the Dominican Govt deciding for itself in the 60's and 30's before that?

Tough luck, big brother ain't gonna let you play the Nuke game, no arrogance just fact

Iran and a few other countires decided for themselves that they would have Nuke plants, someone elss made that decision for them also. Tough World out there, maybe someday when you grow up you can play with the Big Boys, but until then better learn to make charcoal

What were those reasons? Maybe more thna you really know

 

[Narcosis]

IS that sort of like the Dominican Govt deciding for itself in the 60's and 30's before that?

Tough luck, big brother ain't gonna let you play the Nuke game, no arrogance just fact

Iran and a few other countires decided for themselves that they would have Nuke plants, someone elss made that decision for them also. Tough World out there, maybe someday when you grow up you can play with the Big Boys, but until then better learn to make charcoal

What were those reasons? Maybe more thna you really know

Not much fact in your dribble..

In 1967 the treaty of Tlateloco was signed by Latin American states, this is pre Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. In this treaty signatary states agreed to use nuclear power for peaceful means and prohibit the testing, use, maufacture etc, of nuclear weapons in our territories. No need for your childish wet-dream Rambo enforcement.

Brazil and Argentina both have nuclear power plants. As a matter of fact the Brazilian nuclear power program was under srutiny following UN speculation that a Pakistani scientist that had supplied sensitive nuclear technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran, had also done so to Brazil.

This was contested by Brazil and they even blocked IAEA inspectors from doing inspection on certain parts of their plants.

Even under this scenario there was no Rambo type reaction from the US. So please keep your speculation to yourself please, some of us living outside the US don't automatically fall for your current leaders paranoid scenarios.

 

[Argo]

Not much fact in your dribble..

In 1967 the treaty of Tlateloco was signed by Latin American states, this is pre Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. In this treaty signatary states agreed to use nuclear power for peaceful means and prohibit the testing, use, maufacture etc, of nuclear weapons in our territories. No need for your childish wet-dream Rambo enforcement.

Brazil and Argentina both have nuclear power plants. As a matter of fact the Brazilian nuclear power program was under srutiny following UN speculation that a Pakistani scientist that had supplied sensitive nuclear technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran, had also done so to Brazil.

This was contested by Brazil and they even blocked IAEA inspectors from doing inspection on certain parts of their plants.

Even under this scenario there was no Rambo type reaction from the US. So please keep your speculation to yourself please, some of us living outside the US don't automatically fall for your current leaders paranoid scenarios.

When the DR buillds a Nuke plant, then and only then will your words have any substance. Until then, you are only firing words you look up on the web trying to be knowledgeable, This is the real world Bud, learn to live in it

 

[Narcosis]

When the DR buillds a Nuke plant, then and only then will your words have any substance. Until then, you are only firing words you look up on the web trying to be knowledgeable, This is the real world Bud, learn to live in it

Real World? Do you actually believe everything you read in Soldier of Fortune magazine? BTW, Some people strive to seem knowledgeable others make no effort at all to look stupid.

I don't think nuclear power is an option for the Dominican Republic given we have cheaper, more natural forms of energy available, and at the same time they help solve other problems as well such as, flood control, water supply for agriculture and human use, as well as a source of food when fish stocks are harvested from dam lakes. They also provide a new area for tourism and an incentive to reforest the mountains and maintain this reusable power source sustainable.

Nuclear power should be used by those nations that don't have the natural resources God blessed this country with.

 

[Mirador]

Actually, the reason nuclear is being considered is because it represents a feasible, cheaper option. This country is not 'blessed' with natural resources, as you say. hydrocarbons?, water? As a matter of fact, in a couple of decades we will have to import desalination technology just for drinking water... This island is condemned to seasons of draught that last several years, there's not even enough for irrigation. Plus, on a KW to KW investment basis, hydroelectrics are much more expensive than nuclear facilities.

 

[Narcosis]

Actually, the reason nuclear is being considered is because it represents a feasible, cheaper option. This country is not 'blessed' with natural resources, as you say. hydrocarbons?, water? As a matter of fact, in a couple of decades we will have to import desalination technology just for drinking water... This island is condemned to seasons of draught that last several years, there's not even enough for irrigation. Plus, on a KW to KW investment basis, hydroelectrics are much more expensive than nuclear facilities.

The only way this island would ever be short of water is if we don't protect those same resources. Mountains are natural "water factories" from the condensation on the trees in higher elevations, as long as trees are there we should have no shortage of water. Some areas of the island are subject to draught naturally they have for millions of years.

The whole point of natural resources is that they must be taken care of, nothing lasts for ever if it is not taken care of. As far as cost we don't need to build Hoover dam size projects, matter of fact communities in the Jarabacoa area have built micro hydro-power plants with limited funds.

 

[Argo]

Real World? Do you actually believe everything you read in Soldier of Fortune magazine? BTW, Some people strive to seem knowledgeable others make no effort at all to look stupid.

I don't think nuclear power is an option for the Dominican Republic given we have cheaper, more natural forms of energy available, and at the same time they help solve other problems as well such as, flood control, water supply for agriculture and human use, as well as a source of food when fish stocks are harvested from dam lakes. They also provide a new area for tourism and an incentive to reforest the mountains and maintain this reusable power source sustainable.

Nuclear power should be used by those nations that don't have the natural resources God blessed this country with.

Unfortunate that you can't read through the sarcasm I have been using since my first post onthis subjetc, but some people can only talk and fail to comprehend. One of the reasons they don't have Nuke plants, inabaility to comprehend and or learn

 

[Argo]

Real World? Do you actually believe everything you read in Soldier of Fortune magazine? BTW, Some people strive to seem knowledgeable others make no effort at all to look stupid..

I missed that the first time, you do make it appear effortless