Patwa or Creole

[Marianopolita]

Here is my response...

Quisqueya,


Your question is interesting. Let's see how I fair. First of all I am skeptical throughout your posts you keep saying Dominican Spanish so obviously you referring to the awkward speech patterns that go against the rules of grammar. We have a most interesting thread in the debates section called "el espa?ol de Sto. Domingo" where I discuss Dominican and Caribbean speech patterns and their complexities (meaning incorrect phrase structure). These speech patterns go back to the 17th century and are attributed to the African influence (slavery) and how the slaves spoke Spanish thus leaving various speech vestiges in today's Dominican Republic. I do not know anything about Creole so I could only use Spanish as a reference but you may have noticed similarities. Due to the imperfections of Spanish spoken by the slaves at that time those speech patterns penetrated into Spanish (in the DR and the Caribbean) thus changing some of the traditional Spanish syntax. Imperfect grammar as far I can observe did not leave as much of trademark as imperfect syntax but there are some noted grammar anomalies as well. My favorite example of these speech patterns are inverted questions. In Spanish the verb must come before the subject pronoun and all the aforementioned must be preceded by the question word.


Example:

Correct Spanish syntax:

1) ?Qu? crees t??

Incorrect Spanish syntax:

2) ?Qu? t? crees? - typical Caribbean Spanish (Cuba, DR, PR)
?Qu? t? piensas?

or

?Lesley t? crees que es posible que vengan ma?ana?. A phrase like this drives me crazy. s/b ?Lesley crees (t?) que es posible que vengan ma?ana?.

Note: this is heard daily, considered dialectal and mostly likely sounds normal to all native speakers from any of the above countries BUT it is definitely incorrect.

-Lesley D (I would love to hear your thoughts).

And Les,

Since you have done your research on the language and are very knowledgable about these issues. Can you explain to me why domincan spanish and haitian creole have the same style of grammar and syntax...I have an idea but maybe you've done some research on that issue as well...

Another thing I would like to mention is that haitians can communicate with Maritinicans, peope from Gaudeloupe, St Croix, Dominica(not DR), guyane francaise and many other countries in Creole

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

These speech patterns go back to the 17th century and are attributed to the African influence (slavery) and how the slaves spoke Spanish thus leaving various speech vestiges in today's Dominican Republic.

Perhaps. But isn't it also true that the linguistic base for Caribbean Spanish isn't Castillano at all, but is, rather, the Andalusian dialect.

 

[Marianopolita]

Correct and that dialect is a component of Caribbean Spanish as well.

-LDG

Perhaps. But isn't it also true that the linguistic base for Caribbean Spanish isn't Castillano at all, but is, rather, the Andalusian dialect.

 

[Chirimoya]

Chrimoya,

I have just one key aspect to add regarding "Creole". The definition you provided is correct: "a Creole is a language that developed from a mixture of different languages" (Ref: Collins English Dictionary) but you must include that not only is it a mixture but it is also the main language in a particular place. Therefore by considering the latter Haitian Creole is exactly that because it has become the "main language" (means of verbal communication) in Haiti but French is formally taught in school. A "pidgin" is a mixture of TWO languages and is used as a means of communication between two people who speak a different language.

I made that point in reverse, when I said:

Haitian Creole/Kreyol is a... well, a Creole! Not a pidgin because it is in many cases it's the speaker's first and only language and can't be used to communicate with others. An English speaker can understand Pacific island pidgin English. A French speaker cannot understand Haitian Kreyol.

For example, a mix of Eng/Span for the sake of communication but it's not anyone's native language. So by this definition I would say "Spanglish" is an example of a "pidgin".

In Gibraltar Spanglish is so established as a language of communication that many people can't speak Spanish or English without mixing the two. If they have to converse with a person who only speaks one or the other they struggle like hell. It has become, for the less educated, the only language they speak, and therefore could be argued, their native language.

Breton and Basque for sure don't have anything to see with Spanish

I realised that and added the bit about French later. Breton is, IIRC, a Celtic language. Basque, as we all know, has nothing to do with any language, except perhaps Hungarian.

Chrimoya,
According to the definition you provided Creole is the language of Haiti which i grew up speaking desde la cuna. But I grew up speaking french since birth as well as many other haitians I know...

You are an educated Haitian. I have Haitian friends and colleagues, most of whom also speak French. And English. And Spanish. However, you must know that most Haitians speak Kreyol only and little or no French. I witnessed a colleague from Belgium struggling to communicate with Creole-speaking Haitians: he found it surprising that they could not even understand him when he asked them simple things in French.

What about the French canadians in Quebec. What would you consider that..I am telling from experience I nor will a french understand an average quebecois..."Tabarnacle"....is not french...and a Francophone speaking person would not understand...T'as compris la...which is canadian french properly would be tu as compris..

From the reading I've done, French people from France cannot understand French Canadians as well as Spaniards can understand Latin Americans. However, I remember meeting some French Canadians and they conversed easily with my European French-speaking friends. Maybe they can modify their speech to European French when necessary? Something a Kreyol speaker cannot do unless s/he is also a French speaker.

There are some allowances the Latin American Spanish speaker has to make in order to be comprehensible to a Spaniard, (and vice-versa) but they are minimal. A Dominican saying 'como tu ta' would get a strange look or two but it'd be fairly clear what the meaning was.

After all, how many people speak BBC English?

[Big Ben chimes]

I know what you mean by a BBC accent but if you listen to the BBC these days you'll hear the whole range of British accents. Newsreaders can have regional accents, but educated ones.


Great input on this thread, especially from Lesley. It's such an interesting subject. If I ever get the chance to return to college I'd definitely choose linguistics.

 

[Quisqueya]

Thanks for your response,

I agree with you 100%. But I also think it has to do with Spanish being such a very easy language to learn and not much emphasis on grammar. French, for example isn't laid back as much as spanish and some things you get away with in spanish which would never be acceptable in french..Your example, in my opinion, it is acceptable...meaning i don't think it incorrect syntax to say "Tu crees...?" as oppose to "Crees Tu...? In my opinion, the tone of voice determines the statement as oppose to syntax.. For example in french, one can say tu penses...? as oppose to penses-tu? Actually, to be formal would be pensez-vous....? So the syntax in the perspective is ok...I'm referring to cutting the "S" and all of the "ado" turns into "ao" I'm referring to syntax such as "Voy a decirte" as oppose to " Te voy a decir"...which I think is the correct syntax...Haitian creole uses the same syntax as dominican spanish...and as you said throughout the caribbean...

Another thing I've notice to is that it's ok to say using your example "Crees?" in spanish which will never be accepted in french w/o say "Tu or vous".

Haitian creole actaully has its base on french but also spanish words, and awarak/taino indians words and of course West African words make up haitian creole. And dominican spanish has its base on spanish but uses taino/arawak words and of course W. African words as well...

And you confirmed that Dominicans and majority of hispanics do not speak Castellano...

Thanks again for your rebuttal...pleasure reading you...Look forward to your response...

Quisqueya,


Your question is interesting. Let's see how I fair. First of all I am skeptical throughout your posts you keep saying Dominican Spanish so obviously you referring to the awkward speech patterns that go against the rules of grammar. We have a most interesting thread in the debates section called "el espa?ol de Sto. Domingo" where I discuss Dominican and Caribbean speech patterns and their complexities (meaning incorrect phrase structure). These speech patterns go back to the 17th century and are attributed to the African influence (slavery) and how the slaves spoke Spanish thus leaving various speech vestiges in today's Dominican Republic. I do not know anything about Creole so I could only use Spanish as a reference but you may have noticed similarities. Due to the imperfections of Spanish spoken by the slaves at that time those speech patterns penetrated into Spanish (in the DR and the Caribbean) thus changing some of the traditional Spanish syntax. Imperfect grammar as far I can observe did not leave as much of trademark as imperfect syntax but there are some noted grammar anomalies as well. My favorite example of these speech patterns are inverted questions. In Spanish the verb must come before the subject pronoun and all the aforementioned must be preceded by the question word.


Example:

Correct Spanish syntax:

1) ?Qu? crees t??

Incorrect Spanish syntax:

2) ?Qu? t? crees? - typical Caribbean Spanish (Cuba, DR, PR)
?Qu? t? piensas?

or

?Lesley t? crees que es posible que vengan ma?ana?. A phrase like this drives me crazy. s/b ?Lesley crees (t?) que es posible que vengan ma?ana?.

Note: this is heard daily, considered dialectal and mostly likely sounds normal to all native speakers from any of the above countries BUT it is definitely incorrect.

-Lesley D (I would love to hear your thoughts).

 

[Quisqueya]

You are an educated Haitian. I have Haitian friends and colleagues, most of whom also speak French. And English. And Spanish. However, you must know that most Haitians speak Kreyol only and little or no French. I witnessed a colleague from Belgium struggling to communicate with Creole-speaking Haitians: he found it surprising that they could not even understand him when he asked them simple things in French.

I agree with you that most haitians speak kreyol only...which is the mother tongue of all haitians (no matter class nor education)...The haitians that spoke or attempted to speak french with your colleague from Belgium probably never went to school and never held a french book..so it would be very difficult for a creolephone haitian to conversate with a francophone...even I can't understand some hardcore Kreyol from the campo and I'm haitian...LOL...Another reason would be lack of exposure to french...most of those haitians speak spanish better than french in the DR since they are expose to it more than french...

From the reading I've done, French people from France cannot understand French Canadians as well as Spaniards can understand Latin Americans. However, I remember meeting some French Canadians and they conversed easily with my European French-speaking friends. Maybe they can modify their speech to European French when necessary? Something a Kreyol speaker cannot do unless s/he is also a French speaker.

Yes some not all french canadians can switch to a more understandable french and haitians who speak both can do the same...one of the greatest French writer was haitian descendant.."Alexandre Dumas" go ask a poor haitian with no education he would know anything about A.D. but I'm sure if you go to UNIBE,INTEC, or even UASD and ask a haitian student I'm sure he/she will elaborate on that subject..in french or spanish or english and italian...

There are some allowances the Latin American Spanish speaker has to make in order to be comprehensible to a Spaniard, (and vice-versa) but they are minimal. A Dominican saying 'como tu ta' would get a strange look or two but it'd be fairly clear what the meaning was.

Indeed... Only if they are exposed to dominican spanish....

 

[Marianopolita]

Quisqueya,

Thanks for responding. Your post is interesting. There are a lot wrong conceptions you stated about Spanish grammar. I am assuming you don't speak Spanish or you have never studied the language. Give me a few hours and I will repond. Estoy trabajando but I will answer. I want clarify some issues here.

I will get back to you.

-Lesley D

Thanks for your response,

I agree with you 100%. But I also think it has to do with Spanish being such a very easy language to learn and not much emphasis on grammar. French, for example isn't laid back as much as spanish and some things you get away with in spanish which would never be acceptable in french..Your example, in my opinion, it is acceptable...meaning i don't think it incorrect syntax to say "Tu crees...?" as oppose to "Crees Tu...? In my opinion, the tone of voice determines the statement as oppose to syntax.. For example in french, one can say tu penses...? as oppose to penses-tu? Actually, to be formal would be pensez-vous....? So the syntax in the perspective is ok...I'm referring to cutting the "S" and all of the "ado" turns into "ao" I'm referring to syntax such as "Voy a decirte" as oppose to " Te voy a decir"...which I think is the correct syntax...Haitian creole uses the same syntax as dominican spanish...and as you said throughout the caribbean...

Another thing I've notice to is that it's ok to say using your example "Crees?" in spanish which will never be accepted in french w/o say "Tu or vous".

Haitian creole actaully has its base on french but also spanish words, and awarak/taino indians words and of course West African words make up haitian creole. And dominican spanish has its base on spanish but uses taino/arawak words and of course W. African words as well...

And you confirmed that Dominicans and majority of hispanics do not speak Castellano...

Thanks again for your rebuttal...pleasure reading you...Look forward to your response...

 

[Quisqueya]

Well, claro que yo hablo espanol perfectamente bien....We had to study spanish for six years straight in Haiti....but I'm NOT an expert or a student of the language like you...And one has to distinguish with writing and talking...Usually when talking one is more relax with syntax and grammar but should n't be acceptable when writing in my opinion..I know many americans that can't tell me three prepositional words in english..which doesn't mean they can't speak the english language....and they only speak one language....but I'll wait for your rebuttal....Que este bien..

Quisqueya,

Thanks for responding. Your post is interesting. There are a lot wrong conceptions you stated about Spanish grammar. I am assuming you don't speak Spanish or you have never studied the language. Give me a few hours and I will repond. Estoy trabajando but I will answer. I want clarify some issues here.

I will get back to you.

-Lesley D

 

[DRsScarface]

It Depends

It depends on wether or not a person is being formal or informal/"hangin out" etc. If you go to many Caribbean places like the DR, Cuba and PR you will notice that when speakin informally(talking with friends and family) a Dominican speaks more correct spanish than a Puerto Rican or Cuban. This is not because we pronounce it the same way as in Spain but because Dominicans tend to to not make up as many words/use slang as PRs and Cubans do. For example, I have seen a special report in the news dealing with how the Spanish language in Cuba is being taken over by a a slang that is now being used even in situations where formal Spanish should be used. I have many Puerto Rican friends and sometimes it is hard to understand them because 65%+ of the words they use are slang. Where I'm getting at is that if a Spaniard from Madrid were to have a conversation he would most likely understand a Dominican than a PR or Cuban, despite the accents. Also, if Latin Americans speak a "patois" because we don't speak spanish just like the spaniards from Madrid, then none of us in this board speak English because we dont speak it like Tony Blair and the people from England. For that matter, Americans don't speak English, they speak a patois. Go to the Southern states of the U.S. some people from the southern U.S. have very think accents but that doesn't make it a patois.
Also, when being formal, most Dominicans can be understood by most other spanish speaking people, even if we sound different but people can understand 90%+ of the words.

Quisqueya,
Education also has a big part in this. The truth is that most Haitians do not speak French only Haitian creole because there are not that many schools in Haiti and most Haitians in Haiti don't even go to school anyways. When a population is about 50% illiterate it is not likely that they will know 2 languages perfectly, especially when one of them is not even used at home. It is unlikely for a population like thins to even know how to read,speak and write ONE language correctly, much less two of them. It is probably true that the upperclass in Haiti know both French and Creole and speak French just as good as the French but i highly doubt that happens in 95% of the lower class.

 

[Quisqueya]

It depends on wether or not a person is being formal or informal/"hangin out" etc. If you go to many Caribbean places like the DR, Cuba and PR you will notice that when speakin informally(talking with friends and family) a Dominican speaks more correct spanish than a Puerto Rican or Cuban. This is not because we pronounce it the same way as in Spain but because Dominicans tend to to not make up as many words/use slang as PRs and Cubans do. For example, I have seen a special report in the news dealing with how the Spanish language in Cuba is being taken over by a a slang that is now being used even in situations where formal Spanish should be used. I have many Puerto Rican friends and sometimes it is hard to understand them because 65%+ of the words they use are slang. Where I'm getting at is that if a Spaniard from Madrid were to have a conversation he would most likely understand a Dominican than a PR or Cuban, despite the accents. Also, if Latin Americans speak a "patois" because we don't speak spanish just like the spaniards from Madrid, then none of us in this board speak English because we dont speak it like Tony Blair and the people from England. For that matter, Americans don't speak English, they speak a patois. Go to the Southern states of the U.S. some people from the southern U.S. have very think accents but that doesn't make it a patois.
Also, when being formal, most Dominicans can be understood by most other spanish speaking people, even if we sound different but people can understand 90%+ of the words.

I must agree with you to some extent ....The dominicans I know can speak proper spanish but the mass well you know the answer to that question..Some dominicans in states really did a number on the spanish language..but I must admit that Porto Ricans have the worse accent/slang to the point it shouldn't be called spanish rather a creole..I've met many PRicans who spoke spanish very good but most live on the island...The ones in NJ/NY sometime I have no clue what they are saying to the point I refuse to speak spanish to them...Now, cubans it all depends on the region and level of education..the people from Oriente speak spanish very very different from the people in Habana and if they cut down on their slang they would be understood by most hispanohablantes...


Quisqueya,
Education also has a big part in this. The truth is that most Haitians do not speak French only Haitian creole because there are not that many schools in Haiti and most Haitians in Haiti don't even go to school anyways.

Not that many schools...that's definitely not true...There are many many schools in haiti and most private even public use the french system...We have more years to complete than students from DR.. The problem is the poor haitian isn't worried about speaking french rather he is worried about putting food on the table for his family even then you'll find some poor haitians eat less just to put their kids in the best schools...BEsides, if you don't have any good connections there isn't no way in hell you can get accepted in a good school such as "Quisqueya university".. OUr education is definitely recognized in Canada & Europe...to the point that Canada allow us to come into the country if we graduated high school..not even college...

When a population is about 50% illiterate it is not likely that they will know 2 languages perfectly, especially when one of them is not even used at home. It is unlikely for a population like thins to even know how to read,speak and write ONE language correctly, much less two of them. It is probably true that the upperclass in Haiti know both French and Creole and speak French just as good as the French but i highly doubt that happens in 95% of the lower class.

Well, i know many haitians such as myself who can speak and write both fluently...in a heartbeat...and it doesnt necessarily have to come from the upper class..if you went to school you have to speak, read & write in french in the class room and supposedly outside of school...

 

[juancarlos]

Well, the name of the Spanish language is Castellano. The fact that some Spaniards, like Andalucians, and Latin Amerincans speak it in different ways and accents, their own dialect, does not negate the fact that it is still Castellano. Quisqueya, what you probably mean is that most Hispanics do not speak the language like those people from Castille do. No, we do not speak like madrilenos, but still speak the same language, regardless. The only people whose first language is not Castillian are Catalans, Galicians and, of course, Basques who are a case apart. Galician is very close to both Castillian and Portuguese and Catalan is also a Romance language.

 

[Marianopolita]

Quisqueya here is my response to your previous post...

Quisqueya,

From the onset your post disturbed me for the following reasons: 1) Spanish is not an easy language to learn. It definitely presents grammar difficulty for native and second-language speakers 2) Spanish is NOT laid back by any means. If anything just poorly spoken by many people unfortunately it will continue to get worse.

My examples of syntax structure is definitely improper Spanish. There is no flexibility at all. As I said it is common among Caribbean Spanish speakers but definitely painful to the ears of Spanish speakers from other countries. Sometimes as a joke with my friends who are from South American countries I speak to them using the examples I gave you and their reaction is immediate and they respond "pero Lesley por qu? hablas as?". So I have tested it and it sounds strange to them and it's incorrect. Definitely not acceptable in the written language. Spanish is definitely as formal as French. The way one speaks should not be the way one writes.

I realize you mixed two concepts. When I say inverted questions I mean those with a question word like "what". The examples you cited like "t? crees" and "crees t?" do not have the word "qu?" this is not the same concept grammatically. You are correct intonation will differentiate the former (a declarative sentence) from the latter (a question) and in this instance both can be a question by using intonation accordingly. However, the grammar rule for questions with an interrogative word like "qu?" in Spanish is: inversion of the verb & the subject pronoun. The fact that "qu?" is being used the verb must precede the pronoun thus ?qu? piensas (t?) de xxx? and NOT ?qu? t? piensas de xxx?

The references to "s" being eliminated and "ado" becoming "ao" all ties into speech varieties that originated from the 17th century as mentioned previously. When language is being spoken by a variety of speakers who don't speak properly it's very easy for the language to become impure. You will hear people say: los cubanos y los dominicanos comen la {s}. This is true not only for Cuba and DR but for PR, Panama, and South American coastal Spanish i.e. Venezuela & Colombia. In general the elimination of the {s} is mostly heard in those regions but can easily apply to other countries. The "ao" concept is a phonetic speech variation. Over the course of time the {d} became eliminated, once again a speech variety due to the influence of non-Spanish speakers i.e. los ind?genas and African slaves in the Caribbean for many years.

Nothing is wrong with "Voy a decirte" vs. "Te voy a decir". What are you questioning here? This is an example of the beauty of Spanish which English does not have. When you have an indirect object pronoun such as "me", "te", "le" etc. grammar rules dictate that it can be placed immediately before the conjugated verb OR it can be attached to the infinitive i.e. in this case "decir". It's the speaker's choice. Personally, I like "Voy a decirte" but there is nothing wrong with "Te voy a decir".

Why are you comparing French to Spanish? Although these languages have some similar grammar concepts I would not compare them especially verb conjugation. In Spanish when conjugating a verb the subject pronoun is not required. Only if there is ambiguity as to who the speaker is. Meaning the 3rd person singular or plural which can mean "he", "she" ,"it" and "they". The Spanish verb ending indicates who the speaker is therefore there is no need to use the pronoun. For example:

The Present Tense of the verb "pensar" when conjugated the root pens- becomes piens- (except nosotros and vosotros forms) + verb endings:

(yo) pienso
(t?) piensas
(?l) piensa
(ella) piensa
(ud.) piensa
(nosotros) pensamos
(vosotros) pens?is
(ellos) piensan
(ellas) piensan
(uds.) piensan

Example: 1. Pienso que no tienes raz?n = 2. Yo pienso que t? no tienes raz?n. In the second phrase the "yo" and "t?" are redundant because the verb ending indicates who the speaker is.

I did not confirm that Dominicans and the majority of Hispanics do not speak Castellano. I think you misconstrued me on that one. Dominican Spanish and Spanish from the Caribbean is what is considered a speech variety because of the syntax and phonetic variations common in that particular region. Nevertheless, the language is Spanish or Castellano (if you prefer).

No estoy de acuerdo con lo que dices. El castellano es el nombre correcto y se refiere m?s al origen pero seg?n yo "el espa?ol" y "el castellano" significan lo mismo. Si voy a Per?, a Argentina, a Espa?a donde sea la gente me va a entender. Claro est?, no voy a empezar a usar l?xico caribe?o pero si hablo como estoy hablando ahora no voy a tener ning?n problema y la gente me va a entender. No te fijes tanto en los t?rminos. El espa?ol como idioma es lo que se entiende en todas partes.

Bueno espero que mi comentario te haya ayudado. Creo que el espa?ol es uno de los idiomas m?s bellos del mundo y me es importante que la gente entienda los conceptos que he mencionado y sobretodo que "hable" bien.

If you have any more questions of a grammatical nature or observations just let me know. I will be glad to shed some light.

-Lesley D

 

[Barnabe]

We,Haitians that speak french well speak it better than the french...LOL..That's because we make sure to pronounce every letter and study the whole Larousse Dictionary..LOL..

C'est de la provocation!

But I must say haitians speak one of the best french as well..Guyane Francaise sound just like the Parisians(well very close)..so I guess they would be considered the best french speakers..and Algerians speak very well too...

Quisqueya, as a born and bred middle class reasonably educated Parisian, I would say that is is a VERY personal opinion!

one of the greatest French writer was haitian descendant.."Alexandre Dumas"

He was descendant from a French aristocrat settled in Saint-Domingue, French island, with a black slave. It was before Toussaint Louverture and Haiti's revolution. This said just for the pleasure of being controversial

Barnab?

 

[Barnabe]

From the reading I've done, French people from France cannot understand French Canadians as well as Spaniards can understand Latin Americans. However, I remember meeting some French Canadians and they conversed easily with my European French-speaking friends. Maybe they can modify their speech to European French when necessary? Something a Kreyol speaker cannot do unless s/he is also a French speaker.

Yes, we understand each other, tabernacle!

Qu?bec has been sending us many screaming singers in the last 30 years to educate us

Any Qu?becois(e) around..?

Barnab?

 

[Barnabe]

Barnabe,
A "creole" presently is not considered a "patois". A "patois" is another term for regional dialect (or speech pattern/ variation) i.e. "cibae?o". A "creole" by definition is language developed from a mixture of different languages and has become the main language in a particular place (Ref: Collins English Dictionary) i.e Haitian Creole is spoken in Haiti which is a mixture of French and various African languages. There are other creoles. For example, Papiamiento which is a Dutch creole spoken in Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. It is a mixture of Dutch, Spanish and various African languages. Further to your question if these "creoles" were to become official languages which would have to be decided by the appropriate language authorities i.e. La Real Academia and L'Academie Fran?aise there would be many as mentioned above Haitian creole, Dutch creole, etc. I hope this makes sense.

-Lesley D

Lesley,

Thanks for the answer, and more broadly for this very interesting debate with Chirimoya, Quisqueya and everybody.

I am happy this opened my mind on "creole" as I was narrow-mindedly thinking that cr?ole was a mix of french and african languages. I was not aware that there are so many creoles in the world.

About the distinction between patois, dialect and language it is not very clear.

In France with speak of Breton, Basque and Corse as languages. But Corse, from an Italian point of view, would be certainly considered a dialect.

Alsacien is said to be a dialect, but is is a German dialect, it has absolutely nothing to see with French.

Proven?al is said to be a dialect. But in fact this is the native language from Provence, with local variations.

In some instances you may wonder if the local language-dialect-patois is derived from French or if French is a synthesis of local languages. French would be a creole in a way?

I am talking of French because this is my country but I am sure a Spaniard, an Italian, maybe a Brit or a German could say the same.

Barnab?

 

[Quisqueya]

Great Post Les. D

Lesley Great post..Damn, you really took time to decipher my comments and responded intelligently...

Quisqueya,

From the onset your post disturbed me for the following reasons: 1) Spanish is not an easy language to learn. It definitely presents grammar difficulty for native and second-language speakers 2) Spanish is NOT laid back by any means. If anything just poorly spoken by many people unfortunately it will continue to get worse.

1)Well, for Haitians or people who speak a latin base language spanish is real easy. And it is spoken poorly by many because of lack of education and high percentage of analfabetos in S. America and Caribbean..


My examples of syntax structure is definitely improper Spanish. There is no flexibility at all. As I said it is common among Caribbean Spanish speakers but definitely painful to the ears of Spanish speakers from other countries. Sometimes as a joke with my friends who are from South American countries I speak to them using the examples I gave you and their reaction is immediate and they respond "pero Lesley por qu? hablas as?". So I have tested it and it sounds strange to them and it's incorrect. Definitely not acceptable in the written language. Spanish is definitely as formal as French. The way one speaks should not be the way one writes.

Once again I will reiterate that your example is not improper spanish but rather a style common among Caribenos...Your comment regarding you joking with your S. Americans about that example doesn't validate it being incorrect. I am sure they were just trying to impress you and were intimidated that you know spanish grammar better than they do.. So testing it among them (South Americans) doesn't mean anything..By the way, Majority of south americans think they are better than caribenos and look down upon them...And depending on which S. American country most speak spanish poorly as well and tainted with Quechua. Spanish from Spain is as formal as French but the Hispanohablantes can not be compared with French.


I realize you mixed two concepts. When I say inverted questions I mean those with a question word like "what". The examples you cited like "t? crees" and "crees t?" do not have the word "qu?" this is not the same concept grammatically. You are correct intonation will differentiate the former (a declarative sentence) from the latter (a question) and in this instance both can be a question by using intonation accordingly. However, the grammar rule for questions with an interrogative word like "qu?" in Spanish is: inversion of the verb & the subject pronoun. The fact that "qu?" is being used the verb must precede the pronoun thus ?qu? piensas (t?) de xxx? and NOT ?qu? t? piensas de xxx?

I think both are correct and all of the grammar rules can be broken..BTW, who sets these rules..Don Quixote and Cervantes? I really would like to know?..Now if you said the 1st example sounds like a person with a strong command of the spanish grammar than I would have to agree with you..

The references to "s" being eliminated and "ado" becoming "ao" all ties into speech varieties that originated from the 17th century as mentioned previously. When language is being spoken by a variety of speakers who don't speak properly it's very easy for the language to become impure. You will hear people say: los cubanos y los dominicanos comen la {s}. This is true not only for Cuba and DR but for PR, Panama, and South American coastal Spanish i.e. Venezuela & Colombia. In general the elimination of the {s} is mostly heard in those regions but can easily apply to other countries. The "ao" concept is a phonetic speech variation. Over the course of time the {d} became eliminated, once again a speech variety due to the influence of non-Spanish speakers i.e. los ind?genas and African slaves in the Caribbean for many years.

Well said. But to tell you the truth French is the same way..How do you think Haitian Creole emerged. The same reasons you've mentioned above in regards to spanish happend in Africa. From N. Africa(Maroccans, Algerians, etc) have a different speech pattern than Sub. Africa(Congolese, Senegalese, etc).

Nothing is wrong with "Voy a decirte" vs. "Te voy a decir". What are you questioning here? This is an example of the beauty of Spanish which English does not have. When you have an indirect object pronoun such as "me", "te", "le" etc. grammar rules dictate that it can be placed immediately before the conjugated verb OR it can be attached to the infinitive i.e. in this case "decir". It's the speaker's choice. Personally, I like "Voy a decirte" but there is nothing wrong with "Te voy a decir".

I am not questioning the grammar but rather compare it with Haitian creole which uses the same syntax as "Voy a decirte". See you are comparing English with Spanish..which I think is your first language(mother tongue) and shouldn't due since English is a very limited language(in my opinion)... Rather I am comparing Spanish with French which are closer with their latin roots. But I am impressed that you really know your grammar down to the nail...Damn, reading your above comment reminded of my professor back in Haiti...Dios mio..tranquila muchacha...you really are into this grammar stuff

Why are you comparing French to Spanish? Although these languages have some similar grammar concepts I would not compare them especially verb conjugation. In Spanish when conjugating a verb the subject pronoun is not required. Only if there is ambiguity as to who the speaker is. Meaning the 3rd person singular or plural which can mean "he", "she" ,"it" and "they". The Spanish verb ending indicates who the speaker is therefore there is no need to use the pronoun.

I am comparing French to Spanish because they have alot of similarities in grammar and conjugation...The only difference is the vocabulary of some words and the ending words. Its obvious you don't speak french and have limited data between the two languages. No disrespect intended..For example I can pick up an italian and portuguese news paper and have an idea of the subject and whether the verb is in futur, imparfait, Pass? compos?, Subjonctif pr?sent. And why did you compare Spanish with English above? I'm assuming it's what people when trying to give an opinion(its called referencing to your mother tongue)..In my punto de visto..I reference Spanish to French and Creole also Latin to some extent since all Haitains have to study it for at least six yrs in school which was torture..

I did not confirm that Dominicans and the majority of Hispanics do not speak Castellano. I think you misconstrued me on that one. Dominican Spanish and Spanish from the Caribbean is what is considered a speech variety because of the syntax and phonetic variations common in that particular region. Nevertheless, the language is Spanish or Castellano (if you prefer).

Ok, I did some research and yes Spanish and Castellano are the same. Well, I guess all Francophones speak Parisian....Hmmm!!!!! So when someone ask me if I speak french I will tell them Nope but I speak Parisian...since its the same thing....and the correct name for French..


No estoy de acuerdo con lo que dices. El castellano es el nombre correcto y se refiere m?s al origen pero seg?n yo "el espa?ol" y "el castellano" significan lo mismo. Si voy a Per?, a Argentina, a Espa?a donde sea la gente me va a entender. Claro est?, no voy a empezar a usar l?xico caribe?o pero si hablo como estoy hablando ahora no voy a tener ning?n problema y la gente me va a entender. No te fijes tanto en los t?rminos. El espa?ol como idioma es lo que se entiende en todas partes.

Como yo te dije que tu tenias razon. Pero cada pais tiene su propio accento y lexico. Si tu tienes un lexico caribeno "so what".


Bueno espero que mi comentario te haya ayudado. Creo que el espa?ol es uno de los idiomas m?s bellos del mundo y me es importante que la gente entienda los conceptos que he mencionado y sobretodo que "hable" bien.

Gracias por tu comentario. T'es tres gentille...Mais tu sais quoi? Todos los idiomas romanticos(francais, italien etc..) son bellos.. Pero la mayoria de los hispanos(dominicans,colombians..etc) estan buscando el sueno americano "dinero y un mejoi futuro" and dont imigrate to a foreign land(USA or wherever) to perfect their spanish... lets be realistic!!!.... Ecoute, je vais te quitter...c'est un plaisir..A la prochaine....t'es tres intelligente.....

If you have any more questions of a grammatical nature or observations just let me know. I will be glad to shed some light.



-Lesley D

 

[DRsScarface]

Quisqueya,

Just because a government says that people are forced to go to school until a certain age doesn't mean that they actually do it. The truth is that most Haitians know ONLY creole and NO French at all. The only reason they know a bit of Spanish is because the DR is right next to them and many have been there. If a country like the U.S. whos laws are heavily enforced, cant keep people from dropping out of school (it is mandatory for all children to go to school until age 16), then how can a country like Haiti keep people in school and teach them 2 or 3 languages at a time? You might have had a very good education but that is definitely NOT the case for almost all of Haiti, a country with only about 50% literacy.

 

[Tordok]

I hope that I'm mistaken for sensing that some may view Dominican language as anything other than Spanish.
Please do not even try to push aside Dominican language and culture away from its clear "Spanish" axis. Let's put it this way; Dominicans who can read and write, do so in actual/historical/academic/international/acceptable/correct Spanish. They don't need a translation for "Cien A?os de Soledad" as originally written by Garc?a-M?rquez, or even the ancient lingo of Cervantes or Calder?n de la Barca. That's part of my linguisitic culture and heritage too....even if I am not a Spaniard. Those works, and everything published or lived in that Castilian language to this day, is part of a larger Spanish language world community. The Dominican Republic is indisputably part of that world. Books, magazines, websites, sattellite sports TV, musical mp3's, celebrities on tour, etc. if they are in Spanish, they are accesible to Dominicans. The same cannot be said of French culture and that of Haitians that speak only Kreyol.

Spanish (or yes, Castillian as some clearly prefer) is my language and its history is part of my history regardless of time or place. Dominicans are part of the Spanish cultural civilization. For decades, Dominicans have been listening to the same pop music that Cubans, Mexican or Andalucians do even if we all speak somewhat differently. If it's written or spoken in Spanish, any Dominican can interact and relate with that intimately. See how popular untranslated Mexican and Venzuelan novelas (TV soap operas) are among the Dominican populus. So even the semi-literate can do it. Same for Panamanians, Uruguayans, Puerto Ricans, etc.. For the literate among us, from early on we read Cantares del M?o Cid to Unamuno or Lorca from Spain, as well as Mart?n Fierro from Argentina or the grammar of Andr?s Bello. We are taught the proper rules of the language even if we do not typically care much for them when we speak as part of our general informality.

Uneducated Haitians (many of the laborers in the DR) cannot relate to Voltaire, Sartre,V?ctor Hugo, or know about l? Bardot, Derrida and Johnny Halliday. They can only understand their insular Kreyol. The educated elites are indeed still francophilic, and of course enjoy Proust, Balzac, and Camus...or Houellebecq. But they are a 'tr?s petit' group.

- Tordok
* I must mention that I'm impressed with the depth and breadth of expertise from Lesley and Chiri. Thank you, I keep learning. Also I'm glad that Haitians are giving us their perspectives too on these topics. :glasses:

 

[Marianopolita]

Thanks Tordok

Tordok,

I was hoping that you add your comments to this thread. You always seem to add the right insight and once again you came through. You are correct the notion by some is that Dominican Spanish is not "real" and via my linguistic and grammar expertise I tried to give an insightful analysis of speech and phonetic differences in regions where Spanish is spoken. However, as you mentioned Dominican Spanish or better said the way Spanish is spoken in the DR does not negate it being Spanish. It is as Spanish as Spanish spoken in any other Spanish speaking country with an interesting lexical variety.

As well, I am glad you enjoy my grammar and linguistics posts. I try to keep it simple and easy to comprehend but when explaining grammar it's imperative to be thorough or else it defeats the purpose of explaining a concept.


Saludos,

Lesley D

 

[Chris]

fascinating...

I'm fascinated ... I grew up with a 'new' language ... it is described as follows: "Among the Indo-European languages, Afrikaans is quite close to Dutch, and formerly was considered as its dialect. Suffered significant influence of Zulu, Bushmen, Gottentote languages of Africa, mainly in lexicon. Drastical changes of morphology is also thought to have been the result of lengthy contacts with African tongues. Contacts took place with Portuguese and Malayan languages as well."

So, in my mother language, we make up words as we go along, 'cause there are not enough words to speak properly... I came in contact with Spanish only a few years ago. Somehow, as I am learning more Spanish (and I'm not a linguist by any means), more and more structures of "old Dutch" comes to mind.

Please, please ... let this thread never die...!