Patwa or Creole

[Quisqueya]

oK, ALOT of some what you said I will not reply to since nothing nice will come out of my keyboard...But I will comment on this...So since I'm haitian it makes a difference if I insulted you and rather it(insults) come from lets just say "colombians". I know so many who talk about you guys so bad that I have to say damn..cut it out...everyone have good and bad within their community...but would a domincan do the same..not many but I have dominicans friends in the DR/USA/Canada/Venezuela/Haiti who would stand up or at least tell them to put a lid on it...

See I find that only poor/low class dominicans talk bad about poor/low class haitians...Majority of the middle/upper class knows better and wouldn't dare disrespect or stereotype a middle/class haitian...You know Why? Cause we are not fighting for petty crums just to get by.. I've never been offended by a dominican until I came onto this board..Well, only once a dominican on the train from NY to NJ asked me and a friend if we were speaking french and we replied know we are speaking creole..and his comment to his pana was "No parece como Haitainos..Los haitianos son oscuro y feo" Thats when I had to put his little chopo behind in check b4 he got off the train to go home to the slums of N. Newark...luckily the next stop was his or I would've............. I hope you get the picture

When will you people stop stereotyping and be realistic...Like you said everyones culture and nation can be ridiculed.....And the way you say "Haitian" has a negative conotation...Anyway, back to the subject..ALL HAITAINS SPEAK CREOLE AND NOT PATWA..

Dominicans do vodou too , its not so much a part of our culture like it is for the Haitians .Now ,im really gonna have to disagree with you on people insulting us and stayin quiet, where im from there have been riots when there was mob disrespect toward us and i know very few Dominicans that would stay shut when being dissed by another Hispanic becuase of our culture,becuase they ALL have flaws (other hispanics)and things to be made fun of that would hurt them emotionally, so many dont even try to talk crap in our faces (they know the consequences) .Also , the same treatment you feel you recieve on these boards would be the same if u were Jamaican, Trinidadian, PR,Cuban,Colombian,Mexican or whatever , however because of Historical reasons and other reasons too,people get more offended when it comes from a Haitian . as for the way we speak , im proud of it , no matter how wrong or correct it is ,its my language and im gonna speak it no matter what ANYBODY says and they way i want to , i beleive most Dominicans share my veiw on that . Plus what do you mean by "ready for a civil war".? if you mean war against Haiti it wouldnt a civil war, just a war(to be politically correct).Now to stay on topic, Haitians speak Creole(according to the English language books)

 

[Quisqueya]

DRScarface,

you are obviously not reading me correctly...I am not saying dominicans do not speak spanish...just with ur own twist...Yes, if you want to learn french I wouldn't recommend Haiti since the majority only speak creole..I see you got jokes..but if I wanted to learn spanish..I wouldn't recommend DR as my number one pick...Please dominicans would love to be under the umbrella of spain or even United States..Why do you think so many envy Puerto Ricans? Besides, if you look at history you would know that dominicans beg the spaniards to control you...Or else it would've been ours for good....Oh boy, that statement might of end and heated alot of you guys but its the TRUTH...

And just because you graduate high school doesn't mean you have the connection and the certain amount of money the Canadian government requires for you to provide and fend for yourself while there.....if that was the case half of haiti would be empty and in Canada...


Why would I compare haitian school system with the dominican school system...Although, I know for act that the haitian school system is better...we have more years to complete then you guys..but that's not hte subject.....


ONCE AGAIN HAITIANS SPEAK CREOLE AND MOST THAT WENT AND FINISH SCHOOL SPEAKS FRENCH...

Quisqueya....

OBVIOUSLY we need the Real Academia Espa?ola to tell us how to use spanish/castellano correctly because Spanish/castellano does come from Spain, so they would know how to place the words in each sentence correctly. It's like if you want to learn French, the best place to go is France NOT Haiti or some other country that was colonized by France. We're not trying to be part of spain because if we wanted to be part of Spain we could've but we don't (ever heard of la guerra de Restauraci?n). We're not trying to get Spain to love us or become part of them, you're the one braggin about how you speak such good French and how Haitian French is so much like Parisian French.

And if their are so many educated Haitians and they can go to Canada if they graduate High School, why aren't most of them over there. I'm damn sure that if i was a poor Haitian and graduated High School and they invited me to Canada i would be on the first plane there. However this doesn't happen in so many large numbers as you want to think because education is at the very bottom of the priorities of the Haitian governement (if Haiti even has a government).

We know the education system in the DR needs A LOT of work but please don't come and compare it with the Haitian one and don't say that there are just as many illiterate Dominicans as there are Haitians.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Quisqueya,

I'm not the moderator. I just hate to see a good thread go bad.

Your points seem to be that SOME Dominicans have a bias, that the bias is ironic since Dominicans are often slighted racially by other Latinos, and that Dominicans speak Spanish as poorly as Haitians speak French .... so there!

The first two are accepted truths that we can move on from no matter how anyone responds, right?

The third point is incorrect and seems a like just a reaction to other posts. Dominicans speak a Spanish dialect while Haitians speak their own bona fide language. Seems to me that Haitians have a sense of pride in this language and are not trying to make it more French - the same brutal colonial masters against whom they rebelled.

To add to what Chiri wrote, it is also my understanding that, at the time of the Haitian revolution, most black Haitians were young and African born due to the ongoing slave trade and incredibly high mortality rates. This fact, and the fact that it was a true anti-French rebellion with an ongoing legacy of decades of suspicion regarding the French and other potential European masters, created a fiercely culturally independent country. The drawback has always been that the country is also quite insular and has suffered economically for this.

Another interesting topic raised earlier is the fact that "creole" culture in New Orleans largely derives from mulato emigrants from Haiti and the Dominican Republic. But that's a topic for a different day.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

.Please dominicans would love to be under the umbrella of spain or even United States..Why do you think so many envy Puerto Ricans? Besides, if you look at history you would know that dominicans beg the spaniards to control you...Or else it would've been ours for good....Oh boy, that statement might of end and heated alot of you guys but its the TRUTH..

Congratulations. Not only is this statement not true, but it seals the fate of this thread and people's opinions of you as a muckracker.

DR1 should put out a classified advertisements: Wanted, Educated multi-lingual Haitian participant in web forum. Must have thick skin. Muckrackers need not apply.

 

[Quisqueya]

I have know idea how this simple topic got twisted and turned into this...

It did get a little heated, so I avoided making a follow-up point until now.

Quisqueya, are you really claiming that Dominican Spanish is to RAE Spanish as Haitian Creole is to French?

That would be absurd of me Cherie..

Haitians developed a Creole, as did many other French colonies, but nothing of the sort evolved in the DR nor in any of the Spanish colonies.

Haiti got rid of its colonial masters in 1804, the Dominicans got their independence from Spain quite a bit later on, towards the end of the 19th century. In Haiti the Africans and the French did not mix as much as the Africans and the Spanish in the DR.

Hun, yes unfortunately we got rid of the french a bit too early and didn't have a plan B once we got our independence...Also, France, USA and the rest of the super powers cut all ties with us and we were left stranded to fend for ourself. BTW, dominicans got their independence from US(Haitians) not Spain...the only hispanic country to get the independence that was not spain....

Could this account for the differences? In contrast to Quisqueya, I've heard some Haitians put forward Creole as an example of their strong sense of identity and independence - as opposed to Dominicans who continue to speak the language of their former colonial masters.

Hmmm!!!! this is a very good but hard question to answer...I will do my best briefly...Yes, we are proud of our language and we are also proud of our french heritage as well...I think it has to do with us being cut off completely with the french and majority of the educated that spoke parisian french move back to France,Quebec, Louisiana, Cuba and Puerto Rico also Venezuela...so we were left with minimum resources and evolved French creole which we spoke to Haitian creole as time went by we started evolving the French creole to what it is today....During the earlier days we(haitians) spoke a more french based creole and was some what understandable to a francophone person...

A similar argument is used to account for the fact that unlike the Dominicans, they did not embrace the US invaders' national sport as their own: Haitians are football mad. Did they get that from the French? Does football go back that far?


My theory on this has to do with our french ancestory and us being stubborn..Once a person taste freedom it's hard to just accept the invaders...as far as baseball goes we always resisted..when the americans came with baseball the upper elite haitians considered that sport to be for trash and not gentlemen like...that's our french influence..remember French are very stubborn and we picked up that trait...And football actually connects us with more with S. Americans than dominicans do..that's why most Latin Americans consider dominicans fake hispanics...again these are the comments of Argentineans and colombians that I know...Actually when it come to football we relate with S. Americans and Europeans better than dominicans...Dominicans are now starting to realize a true sport..i guess they are late look the US..monkey see monkey do...Dont Know...

Great questions Chiri...Thanks for bringing life back to this thread...Na Pali Pita=on se parlera plus tard=nos hablamos mas tarde....

 

[Quisqueya]

Wow....Porfio_rub

You know your stuff...every little thing you said I agree with 100%...damn I'm impressed....damn, you know your stuff..I hope you keep posting and bring out the best of everyone here....

Quisqueya,

I'm not the moderator. I just hate to see a good thread go bad.

Your points seem to be that SOME Dominicans have a bias, that the bias is ironic since Dominicans are often slighted racially by other Latinos, and that Dominicans speak Spanish as poorly as Haitians speak French .... so there!

The first two are accepted truths that we can move on from no matter how anyone responds, right?

The third point is incorrect and seems a like just a reaction to other posts. Dominicans speak a Spanish dialect while Haitians speak their own bona fide language. Seems to me that Haitians have a sense of pride in this language and are not trying to make it more French - the same brutal colonial masters against whom they rebelled.

To add to what Chiri wrote, it is also my understanding that, at the time of the Haitian revolution, most black Haitians were young and African born due to the ongoing slave trade and incredibly high mortality rates. This fact, and the fact that it was a true anti-French rebellion with an ongoing legacy of decades of suspicion regarding the French and other potential European masters, created a fiercely culturally independent country. The drawback has always been that the country is also quite insular and has suffered economically for this.

Another interesting topic raised earlier is the fact that "creole" culture in New Orleans largely derives from mulato emigrants from Haiti and the Dominican Republic. But that's a topic for a different day.

Another Wow...you know your stuff...yes alot of haitians and domincans migrated to New Orleans...Start a thread..

 

[Quisqueya]

Congratulations. Not only is this statement not true, but it seals the fate of this thread and people's opinions of you as a muckracker.

DR1 should put out a classified advertisements: Wanted, Educated multi-lingual Haitian participant in web forum. Must have thick skin. Muckrackers need not apply.

This is not facts but My opinions....but I guess your right it might rub the wrong feathers..but.....if..I..let..me..explain...

Anyway, you are smart and have a great since of humor..hmmm!!!!! with Class!!!!!

 

[wventura]

My ex is from New Orleans and she understood Haitian creole. So I'm guessing it is close enough.

New Orleans Creoles are largely of haitian descent, so that probably has alot to do with it.

 

[NALs]

Quisqueya,


Your question is interesting. Let's see how I fair. First of all I am skeptical throughout your posts you keep saying Dominican Spanish so obviously you referring to the awkward speech patterns that go against the rules of grammar. We have a most interesting thread in the debates section called "el espa?ol de Sto. Domingo" where I discuss Dominican and Caribbean speech patterns and their complexities (meaning incorrect phrase structure). These speech patterns go back to the 17th century and are attributed to the African influence (slavery) and how the slaves spoke Spanish thus leaving various speech vestiges in today's Dominican Republic. I do not know anything about Creole so I could only use Spanish as a reference but you may have noticed similarities. Due to the imperfections of Spanish spoken by the slaves at that time those speech patterns penetrated into Spanish (in the DR and the Caribbean) thus changing some of the traditional Spanish syntax. Imperfect grammar as far I can observe did not leave as much of trademark as imperfect syntax but there are some noted grammar anomalies as well. My favorite example of these speech patterns are inverted questions. In Spanish the verb must come before the subject pronoun and all the aforementioned must be preceded by the question word.


Example:

Correct Spanish syntax:

1) ?Qu? crees t??

Incorrect Spanish syntax:

2) ?Qu? t? crees? - typical Caribbean Spanish (Cuba, DR, PR)
?Qu? t? piensas?

or

?Lesley t? crees que es posible que vengan ma?ana?. A phrase like this drives me crazy. s/b ?Lesley crees (t?) que es posible que vengan ma?ana?.

Note: this is heard daily, considered dialectal and mostly likely sounds normal to all native speakers from any of the above countries BUT it is definitely incorrect.

-Lesley D (I would love to hear your thoughts).

Very interesting Lesley.

Do you think there is a possibility this sintax detachment from proper Spanish could have anything to do with the US influences in these three Spanish speaking Caribbean countries? After all, Merengue as we know it was slowed down for the taste of American troops during their first occupation in the 1910s-1920s of the DR, despite the fact that American troops probably did not understood a word that was in those songs. My purpose for that example is to show that even though the American occupation was probably not interested in enforcing their English language upon us, they still managed to reshape many things about us. The switch of popularity from Soccer or Futbol to Beisbol is anothe example.

As such, do you think the english syntax has had an impact, more so than is currently believed?

Keep in mind that DR, Cuba, and PR have strong influences from US, as well as Spain and Africa.

 

[DRsScarface]

Quisqueya,

Please don't come tell us that Colombians and Aregentines hate us. Because we really could care less. We know alot of them hate us because our country is mostly mullatto (which is ironic because they have a substantial mullatto population) and they probably LOVE calling us negros. Argentines (most but not all) are very stuck up and arrogant and hate almost everyone else that isn't European. Just becuase they are the most racially European country in Latin America,they tend to think they are the best. Colombians shouldn't be speaking about us because even if they think about us as bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros, these bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros live in a country that is alot less poor than theirs.
Tell your friends to keep their comments to themselves because we really didn't ask for them.

Sorry if I got off the topic but these stupid comments get annoying after a while.

 

[NALs]

Quisqueya,

Please don't come tell us that Colombians and Aregentines hate us. Because we really could care less. We know alot of them hate us because our country is mostly mullatto (which is ironic because they have a substantial mullatto population) and they probably LOVE calling us negros. Argentines (most but not all) are very stuck up and arrogant and hate almost everyone else that isn't European. Just becuase they are the most racially European country in Latin America,they tend to think they are the best. Colombians shouldn't be speaking about us because even if they think about us as bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros, these bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros live in a country that is alot less poor than theirs.
Tell your friends to keep their comments to themselves because we really didn't ask for them.

Sorry if I got off the topic but these stupid comments get annoying after a while.

It is expected that some other Latin people might say unfavorable things about Dominicans and vice versa. The reason is not racial, its just a part of every society to have at the very least, a handfull of people who dislike somebody.

Look, Venezuelans are not too fond of Colombians, Ecuadorians are not very up there with their Peruvian neighbors, Honduras loves to hate El Salvador, Costa Rica is more than bothered by its Nicaraguan neighbors, Puerto Ricans are tired of Dominicans, and Dominicans don't want to know about Haitians.

Actually, at times it seems that the entire Caribbean don't want to know about Haitians. Everytime something goes bad in every Caribbean island, the one's who get wrongfully blamed for it are the Haitians. That's interesting since many of the Caribbean islands have Dominicans and Dominicans are hardly blamed for much, even among the non-spanish speaking Caribbean countries.

Contrast that with the DR where Haitians get blame for bringing Malaria and for exacerbating the poverty levels and unemployment, in Turks and Caicos the Haitians are blamed for car accidents and cutting down trees, in the Bahamas they are fed up with so many Haitians (Haitians make up something in between of 10 to 20% of the Bahamian Population), Jamaica doesn't think twice before returning a group of Haitians that might make it to their shores, in Guadeloupe and Martinique (French speaking islands) Haitians are readily rounded up and deported when something goes wrong on the island, etc.

Read this article, its very interesting about the Haitian dilemma in the DR and elsewhere in the Caribbean.
http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/pdf/MRGCaribbeanReport.pdf

But, I do agree with you DRScarface, stupid comments do get annoying after a while.

 

[gsupa]

yan d? ti prov?b kr?ol :

Sa ki la pou-w, larivy? pa ka chay?-?

F? pa ou fil? kouto avan ou kyenb? kabrit

B?f douvan bou? dlo kl?

fout man inmin kreol!

 

[DRsScarface]

Im Sure we all understood that....LOL

 

[NALs]

yan d? ti prov?b kr?ol :

Sa ki la pou-w, larivy? pa ka chay?-?

F? pa ou fil? kouto avan ou kyenb? kabrit

B?f douvan bou? dlo kl?

fout man inmin kreol!

For non-Creole speakers, the translation is in parenthesis

Souple (Please)

pale angle ou panyol a DR1 (speak english or spanish in DR1)

mesi (thank you)

BTW, I can't speak a word of Creole, but I manage to ask you that by searching on the net.

For those of you curious of what these Haitians are saying in our faces, click here and unravel the mistery.
http://www.kreyol.com/dictionary.html

And for those of you who think most Dominicans won't know what you are saying here by using Creole, Patois, or whatever. Just keep in mind that I will make the fullest of my efforts to fully understand what it was said. As such, don't post anything that might get any of you in a mess, for that write it in a language we can all understand (either English or Spanish). After all, this is DR1, not HAITI1.

MESI

 

[Marianopolita]

Nals here is my response to your question...

Nals,

Your question is interesting but I am not sure I can answer it. When it comes to languages I refuse to speculate. However, I have yet to read that English influenced Caribbean Spanish in anyway at least not when these improper syntax forms developed. If you say English is a factor today I will agree with you but the inverted question examples have nothing to do with English.

At the same time I would like to clarify my point in the example I used:

1) ?Lesley t? crees que es posible que vengan ma?ana?

2) ?Lesley crees (t?) que es posible que vengan ma?ana?

Phrase #1 is definitely passable in conversational speech BUT intonation is necessary to make this sound like a question. Without the intonation it is just a declarative phrase. However, in more formal Spanish i.e. reading and writing # 2 should be used. Thus when I said it?s incorrect I meant mostly from a written point of view because it is heard and accepted in conversational speech. Personally, I prefer #2 in all scenarios.

The others examples I cited with inverted questions using ?qu? are definitely speech patterns that developed in 17th century. Questions like ?Qu? t? crees? are examples of syntax patterns influenced by the speech of African slaves who spoke minimal and improper Spanish.

-Lesley D

 

[Tordok]

My mom and I are having a bit of a disagreement. She insists that people that used to come from Haiti to cut sugar cane speak Patwa, were I assume that they speak Creole (after all isn't it Jamaicans that speak Patwa?) On all of the websites that I have looked at, I have found nothing to back up her claim...........
Can anyone else provide any information,perhaps Hillbilly.

Disagreement II

What is the official language of the Dominican Republic? Spanish or Castilian. BTW, her "trick" question was when she asked me what the official language of RD was. When I said Spanish....she smiled and said it was Castilian. This is what she bases her conclusion that the "Haitianos que cortan cana (that is not an n it an ~n) hablan Patwa" on......( yeah I know, I am just as confused!)

If possible answer before tonight prefered. I would be nice to eat dinner tonight .

Cher Quisqueya,

Please see above and reread the original opening inquiry into this thread. How is it that you see my previous answer as not directly dealing with Domierican's question? The issues where:

1. the language spoken by Haitian sugarcane cutters today; Haitian Kreyol or Patois. Many Dominicans incorrectly call it Patois, because any mixed language (as the point was made about Dutch Antillean Papiamento) is generically a patois to our ears. I only made the point- more elegantly made later by Porfirio - that this one in particular is unique to Haitians, unlike Spanish which not only permeates daily life in the DR since Columbus set up shop there over 500 years ago but it is also shared with most of Latin America, big chunks of the USA, and parts of Iberia. This is history and linguistic geography data. It is not opinion. Is there for all to see. I do not understand what is it about this truth that seems to you as pretentious or off topic?

2. the question about the official language of the DR which is indeed both Spanish and Castilian, in this context being one and the same thing.
The constitution is written in that language and our literature is in that tongue. Ou history is written in that language. The currency is printed in that language. I was just using examples more from literature simply because that's what most tangibly gives us a collective conscience of shared ideas and values. Call it Spanish universals. The language and the cultures are intrinsically linked thus what you perceive as racial I meant in terms of cultural heritage. And the other point is that Spanish is widely distributed language around the globe. Like English, like Arabic, like French, unlike Haitian Kreyol. Another fact. Not in any way detrimental.

So how dare you tell me that I am somehow trying to pretend being a Spaniard wannabe. Why do you make stereotypical assumptions about my personal appearance?

You are reaching a bit too far in your demeanor toward the people of these boards. Slow down and be respectful. I have the utmost respect for the people of Haiti. The history of the two nations are obviously intertwined, but language is one aspect where we belong to different cultures. That, again, are simple facts, not wild opinions or provocations to anyone. If you care to look around old threads, you'll find that some have accussed me of being "pro-Haitian". I'm actually pro-humankind and that includes even you. YOU take a breather, and lay off the infantile rethoric about envy and inferiority complex as IT in fact may suit you more than anyone one else around here.

- Tordok

 

[NALs]

Nals,

Your question is interesting but I am not sure I can answer it. When it comes to languages I refuse to speculate. However, I have yet to read that English influenced Caribbean Spanish in anyway at least not when these improper syntax forms developed. If you say English is factor today I will agree with you but the inverted question examples have nothing to do with English.

At the same time I would like to clarify my point in the example I used:

1) ?Lesley t? crees que es posible que vengan ma?ana?

2) ?Lesley crees (t?) que es posible que vengan ma?ana?

Phrase #1 is definitely passable in conversational speech BUT intonation is necessary to make this sound like a question. Without the intonation is just a declarative phrase. However, in more formal Spanish i.e. reading and writing # 2 should be used. Thus when I said it?s incorrect I meant mostly from a written point of view because it is heard and accepted in conversational speech. Personally, I prefer #2 in all scenarios.

The others examples I cited with inverted questions using ?qu? are definitely speech patterns that developed in 17th century. Questions like ?Qu? t? crees? are examples of syntax patterns influenced by the speech of African slaves who spoke minimal and improper Spanish.

-Lesley D

Thank you for responding. I'm overall satisfied. This is something I'll do more research on my own and when I get the results (promising or not), I'll post them here.

I just wanted to see if I had a chance at getting a head start from any extra info I thought you might have known.

BTW, I'm impressed with your indepth knowledge of the Spanish language! Very impressive!

 

[locofoto]

Colombians shouldn't be speaking about us because even if they think about us as bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros, these bad spanish speaking mullatoes/negros live in a country that is alot less poor than theirs.

Hmmm... Are you sure about what you are talking about?

I am European and happen to have some extensive personal experience with Colombians and the economic situation of Colombia. And I haven't found proof for what you just said. Pardon me, but it looks to me like the DR could learn a lot from Colombia regarding public services, education and manners. Please don't take it personal but "parking assistants" in front of public buildings are not known in Colombia neither you have to bribe your way in cases of a little paperwork that has to be done. The list can be extended quite a lot.

 

[Barnabe]

Spanish Creole?

No creole in DR.

Why? Any historic, or social reason?

How did the Spaniards communicate with their slaves? Or didn't they have slaves? Or did they teach them Spanish?

Barnab?

 

[Pib]

No creole in DR.

Why? Any historic, or social reason?

How did the Spaniards communicate with their slaves? Or didn't they have slaves? Or did they teach them Spanish?

Barnab?

One of the reasons why this happened is because Spaniards and Portuguese masters spent more time having sex with their slaves (and the Indians) than the French or English masters. Spaniards and Portuguese thought of their mixed children as their own, and as such they were free men, not so with the French or English, where the 'one drop' rule prevailed. As time passed everybody went at it with everybody like bunnies in heat.

We can conclude that we speak Spanish because the Spaniards were horny bastards.*


*Actually it is a little more complicated than that, but this is part of the truth.