Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

[bob saunders]

Just for my information. In Santo Domingo can you tell me whether the dominant skin color of inhabitants of wealthy neighborhoods are the same as the poor ghettoes? In other words can one observe the same proportions of light and dark skinned peoples in each?

If skin color/race/phenotype isnt an issue in the DR (its clear that there are no ethnc/cultural differences between Dominicans of different skin colors which one might argue would lead to different values thus impacting socio-economic out comes) then one wouldnt expect to see any difference? If there is why do you think so? The DR doesnt have the legacy of slavery to the extent of say Cuba or Brazil to explain this.

My understanding is that the richest people in the Dominican Republic are of Lebanese Descent. Whether they are white or brown I don't know. I can't speak for Santo Domingo but in Jarabacoa many of the rich are far from being white, although there certainly are rich white Dominicans there. In my wife's family there are plenty of poor white Dominicans and certainly there are poor white Dominicans throughout the countryside. Now since the vast majority of Dominicans are Mulatto, with brown skin of various shades and features that can be a blend, pure caucasian with dark skin, pure negroid features with light skin, and every spectrum in between it would be hard to say that a ghetto of mainly dark people is poor because of the colour of their skin. The amount of dark skinned leaders with African features throughout the history of the DR would not support this theory. To say there are no racial issues in the DR wouldn't be true because there are, but it isn't the same as the USA or many other countries, it is uniquely Dominican.

 

[Hillbilly]

Bob, I am not sure we even know who the richest people are any more!

For sure the Hazoury have made a lot of noise but the Vicini family has been making lots of money since the 1860s..more or less. And if one of the stories I have heard is true they are major share holders of IBM...

Who knows how much the Ramos family has? La Sirena
The Bemudez, Brugal and Barcel? families??? And not just Rum...

The Garcias>? The Estrellas?
Or Mera, Mu?oz & Fondeur?

There are people in Santo Domingo and La Roman with incredible fortunes...Arteaga, Morales Troncoso, Franco, Geraldino, and Santana and others you have never heard of.

Sure, there are some Lebanese/Sirian/Palestinian success stories, like Lama, Hach? and some others, but not enough to generalize...

HB

 

[bob saunders]

Bob, I am not sure we even know who the richest people are any more!

For sure the Hazoury have made a lot of noise but the Vicini family has been making lots of money since the 1860s..more or less. And if one of the stories I have heard is true they are major share holders of IBM...

Who knows how much the Ramos family has? La Sirena
The Bemudez, Brugal and Barcel? families??? And not just Rum...

The Garcias>? The Estrellas?
Or Mera, Mu?oz & Fondeur?

There are people in Santo Domingo and La Roman with incredible fortunes...Arteaga, Morales Troncoso, Franco, Geraldino, and Santana and others you have never heard of.

Sure, there are some Lebanese/Sirian/Palestinian success stories, like Lama, Hach? and some others, but not enough to generalize...

HB

My point was that to be rich or power in the DR you don't have to be white.

 

[Chip]

It's just a little disconcerting that newcomers don't know how to use the search feature on DR1 as this topic has been discussed many times over the last years. Generally 100% of the newcomers that have questions about the DR/Haitian relationship know nothing about the history of the island before the Trujillo massacre or just selected parts. People should do a little simple research first before postulating the same theories over and over and over and over...

 

[caribNY]

I can't speak for Santo Domingo but in Jarabacoa many of the rich are far from being white, although there certainly are rich white Dominicans there. .

So let me define it further. What % of the movers and shakers in the DR look like Sammy Sosa? I am not talking about whether any of the movers and shakers look like him. I am asking if the Sosa look represents 50% of the Dominican population (I am just throwing in a number here so lets not debate that %) whether 50% of the top dogs in the DR look like him.

Will I more likely see his look in the wealthiest neighborhoods or in the ghettos?

No need to cite a leader or two as an example unless you think that Obama means that the US is some racial paradise.

What I am asking is whether there is any correlation between skin color and hair texture and socio economic status. I use Sosa as a bench mark because with his skin color and hair he is not in any "almost white" category, but neither is he unusual and he definitely doesnt fit the stereotypical "Haitian" look.

Also your previous posts give the impression that skin color/hair texture is a non factor in the DR. Are you shifting your position now?

Also the fact that there are poor whites in the DR on its own doesnt mean much when we consider that in the USA at least 30% of the black population earn incomes higher than the average white.

 

[BIGBOY21]

Quick story
I landed in Las Americas airport last year and took a taxi to the zona colonial, during the drive me and the taxi driver started to make conversation, then he asked me where I was from, naturally I said Haiti, I looked shocked and called me a liar, further stating that there was no way I could be Haitian porque todos los Haitianos son prietos, now keep in mind that this taxi driver was black with nappy hair, I then replied '' entonces tu eres Haitiano porque eres prieto'' off course he aggressively replied that he was moreno, I argued that I came from a country that was predominantly black and if anyone could identify a prieto that was me, and that he was without a doubt as black as they come and had to have Haitian blood, next thing I knew I was being kicked out of the taxi and was left standing somewhere on Autopista las Americas, realizing I should have kept my mouth shut or just told him I was Italian hahaha!

 

[bob saunders]

Quick story
I landed in Las Americas airport last year and took a taxi to the zona colonial, during the drive me and the taxi driver started to make conversation, then he asked me where I was from, naturally I said Haiti, I looked shocked and called me a liar, further stating that there was no way I could be Haitian porque todos los Haitianos son prietos, now keep in mind that this taxi driver was black with nappy hair, I then replied '' entonces tu eres Haitiano porque eres prieto'' off course he aggressively replied that he was moreno, I argued that I came from a country that was predominantly black and if anyone could identify a prieto that was me, and that he was without a doubt as black as they come and had to have Haitian blood, next thing I knew I was being kicked out of the taxi and was left standing somewhere on Autopista las Americas, realizing I should have kept my mouth shut or just told him I was Italian hahaha!

Hahaha. Reminds me of my wife's cousin's husband who is a taxi driver in Santo Domingo. He is very dark with black physical charteristics - kinky hair, broad nose, big lips....etc. We had used him to visit a graphic artist doing some work for us, and upon returning home he was describing this woman to his wife as a prieto. She was lighter than him, but he would never consider himself as prieto.

 

[bob saunders]

So let me define it further. What % of the movers and shakers in the DR look like Sammy Sosa? I am not talking about whether any of the movers and shakers look like him. I am asking if the Sosa look represents 50% of the Dominican population (I am just throwing in a number here so lets not debate that %) whether 50% of the top dogs in the DR look like him.

Will I more likely see his look in the wealthiest neighborhoods or in the ghettos?

No need to cite a leader or two as an example unless you think that Obama means that the US is some racial paradise.

What I am asking is whether there is any correlation between skin color and hair texture and socio economic status. I use Sosa as a bench mark because with his skin color and hair he is not in any "almost white" category, but neither is he unusual and he definitely doesnt fit the stereotypical "Haitian" look.

Also your previous posts give the impression that skin color/hair texture is a non factor in the DR. Are you shifting your position now?

Also the fact that there are poor whites in the DR on its own doesnt mean much when we consider that in the USA at least 30% of the black population earn incomes higher than the average white.

I've never said skin colour/features are a non factor. What I said is I don't think COLOUR is as big a factor as many people, normally Americans, think. My opinion. As far as leaders name a Dominican leader that was pure white in the last 150 years.

 

[BIGBOY21]

Well this is all twisted stuff , but I will say this, it is not a DR problem, I have seen this type of behavior everywhere I have been so far in this part of the world, with black Americans there is a hair issue, the less kinky the hair is the better it is as they refer to straight hair as good hair, in Jamaica the same thing, it seems most of the rich families there are lighter skinned if not white, same is true for Haiti, the white and mulato Haitians think they are superior while the black haitians wish they were mulatos and would jump at the first opportunity to marry a white or mulato to ''Ameliorer la race'' to better the race’’ as their saying goes, between black Haitians you will find some less dark then others and even some light skinned ones with strong negroide features which are called ''grimo '' for the men and ''grimel'' for women, and among the lower classes a Haitian would consider himself lucky to end up with a grimo or a grimel, this is all very twisted stuff but I think it all has do with the history of slavery blacks have been put true and a self hatred spawned by colonist slave masters that created this self hatred and complex within them.

 

[bob saunders]

Well this is all twisted stuff , but I will say this, it is not a DR problem, I have seen this type of behavior everywhere I have been so far in this part of the world, with black Americans there is a hair issue, the less kinky the hair is the better it is as they refer to straight hair as good hair, in Jamaica the same thing, it seems most of the rich families there are lighter skinned if not white, same is true for Haiti, the white and mulato Haitians think they are superior while the black haitians wish they were mulatos and would jump at the first opportunity to marry a white or mulato to ''Ameliorer la race'' to better the race?? as their saying goes, between black Haitians you will find some less dark then others and even some light skinned ones with strong negroide features which are called ''grimo '' for the men and ''grimel'' for women, and among the lower classes a Haitian would consider himself lucky to end up with a grimo or a grimel, this is all very twisted stuff but I think it all has do with the history of slavery blacks have been put true and a self hatred spawned by colonist slave masters that created this self hatred and complex within them.

Except the same is true in China, Japan, Korea and Africa.

 

[Africaida]

2 things

Except the same is true in China, Japan, Korea and Africa.

1) Well, not certainly as strong in Asia
2) Most of Africa was under European ruling till 50 years ago. (i.e. Colonization led to the same mechanisms because the offspring of colons and missionaries (i.e mixed) were privileged)

 

[bob saunders]

1) Well, not certainly as strong in Asia
2) Most of Africa was under European ruling till 50 years ago. (i.e. Colonization led to the same mechanisms because the offspring of colons and missionaries (i.e mixed) were privileged)

But in China it has nothing to do with Colonialism or slavery. It is a 5000 year old custom.

 

[shawn27]

Ok I'll try to be as non aggresive as possible. I've been to DR three times. Yes I've done searches on threads about color in the DR or what not but nothing beats literally being there and asking questions. From my experiences out of ten dominicans 6-7 do not like typical Haitians. Reasons vary from taking jobs away, more crime etc.

Even without me asking color always comes up. I don't think anyone would disagree that dominicans think about their skin shade, especially darker dominicans. Unfortunately events from Trujillo to soured relations with Haiti have contributed to the Dominican rejection of blackness in general. In Cuba black cubans were taught that they were black, in DR they were taught that they were latino (which they are.)

Just from my observations it is evident that typical negroid characteristics are frowned upon. The best example I can think of is hair texture in women. It was amazing saying these extremely dark women with completely straight hair.

 

[Africaida]

But in China it has nothing to do with Colonialism or slavery. It is a 5000 year old custom.

Never said it was. I was just pointing that in the case of Africa, it was mainly for for the same reasons since you were trying to discount BIGBOY explanation (unless you were trying to point out that it is not unique to the DR; in that case, I sadly agree).

 

[shawn27]

Never said it was. I was just pointing that in the case of Africa, it was mainly for for the same reasons since you were trying to discount BIGBOY explanation (unless you were trying to point out that it is not unique to the DR; in that case, I sadly agree).

It is unique to the DR, only because of the past leaders and the past relationships with Haitians.

 

[Africaida]

It is unique to the DR, only because of the past leaders and the past relationships with Haitians.

I disagree here, the same issues can't be found all over Latin America, the US and even Africa. What is probable though, it is that it may be worse in the DR because of the past relationship with Haiti.

 

[NALs]

Quick story
I landed in Las Americas airport last year and took a taxi to the zona colonial, during the drive me and the taxi driver started to make conversation, then he asked me where I was from, naturally I said Haiti, I looked shocked and called me a liar, further stating that there was no way I could be Haitian porque todos los Haitianos son prietos, now keep in mind that this taxi driver was black with nappy hair, I then replied '' entonces tu eres Haitiano porque eres prieto'' off course he aggressively replied that he was moreno, I argued that I came from a country that was predominantly black and if anyone could identify a prieto that was me, and that he was without a doubt as black as they come and had to have Haitian blood, next thing I knew I was being kicked out of the taxi and was left standing somewhere on Autopista las Americas, realizing I should have kept my mouth shut or just told him I was Italian hahaha!

This is a case of generalization based on what's most prominent in the country.

For example, most Haitian migrants are extremely dark, hence many Dominicans will have a hard time understanding that there are mulatto and white Haitians too.

The same occurs with Cubans. Most Dominicans that have had significant contact with Cuban immigrants think that all Cubans are white, mostly because the vast majority of Cubans in the DR are white. Try convincing many Dominicans that this is not the case, not withstanding the popularity of Cuban singers like Celia Cruz and such.

It's fallacious thinking based on the notion that you can only believe what you see, or that you need to see to believe.

You should see what many white and extremely light skin Dominicans go through abroad.

Foreigner: "Where are you from?"

Dominican: "Dominican Republic."

Foreigner: "Really? You don't look Dominican?"

Dominican: "We come in all shapes and colors."

Foreigner: "But are you like..."

Friend of Dominican jumps in: "In the Caribbean we are all mixed, everywhere you'll find whites, blacks, mixed people."

Foreigner: "Oh, OK."
Thank God the discussion changed after that.

That little discussion right there happened to me more than once, not fun at all!!!

 

[BIGBOY21]

MY point was that it is not unique to the DR, in most of the ex colonies blackness is frond upon in some form or another and this even in the most blacks of the ex colonies, as illustrated in my example of such behavior in Haiti, weather one will admit it or not black societies in general have some sort of self hatred maybe even subconsciously, because of their past, as one person told me once, the black race has been thought to see beauty true the eyes of the white man, and since to the whites during the slave trade society black was not beautiful hence cannot be beautiful the blacks themselves, it is with time and eventual self awareness and knowledge of where you come from and who you are that slowly we see that this is changing, black culture has come a long way and has influenced all cultures in the Americas which would not be what it is today without it.

 

[AlterEgo]

You should see what many white and extremely light skin Dominicans go through abroad.

Foreigner: "Where are you from?"

Dominican: "Dominican Republic."

Foreigner: "Really? You don't look Dominican?"

Dominican: "We come in all shapes and colors."

Foreigner: "But are you like..."

Friend of Dominican jumps in: "In the Caribbean we are all mixed, everywhere you'll find whites, blacks, mixed people."

Foreigner: "Oh, OK."
Thank God the discussion changed after that.

That little discussion right there happened to me more than once, not fun at all!!!

Both our children have had that 'discussion' a multitude of times. Some people come right out and say 'You can't be Dominican, you're white!'

Yeah, right, they just made that up because they thought being Dominican is cool. People can really be moronic sometimes.

AE

 

[BIGBOY21]

Has anyone ever asked themselves these questions?

How come most of the Spanish colonies and Portuguese today are mostly mixed races, the French ones more or less and the English well mostly segregated?

Well this may be why, the English were a bit harsh on there views regarding race, they had the one drop rule, we all know what that means, the French on the other hand had children with their slaves and those little half whites were free, an integrated in the society with a few restrictions such as the inability to occupy governing positions, but it is a known fact that some of these free mulatos had land and slaves of their own, now as for the Spanish and the Portuguese only men were allowed to travel to the colonies for the first 300 years of their colonies, so what happens when you have all men in a strange land with slaves at their disposal? they take native and African slave women, but they recognized there kids and after death the kids would inherit the land and slaves, now by the time women were allowed to come to the new world, you already had quite a substantial mixed group which were not slaves, so... think about this for a sec, if a mixed person has a kid with a white women that kid will look mostly white and if this mostly white kid had a kid with another white person the third generation will just look white and would have to tell you he or she has black blood in them and vice versa if they had a kid with a black women, now if two mulatos had kids one kid may come out dark and another come out lighter, that’s jut the way it is and if you do the math it all adds up.