Thanks Wud. Doing the best I can. Funny thing, my barmaids never get hassled. It depends on the attitude. If you act submissive, you're in trouble. To all the guys out there who have "legit" Domincan girl friends, just don't let the police walk in and take your girl away. Stand up to them. For sure you won't have any problem. If they insist, maybe they know something you don't.
- Thread starter abe
- Start date
Sosua's comeback
Sosua atmosphere as a whole
If tourists are vital to Sosua's well-being, which is obvious, they will not know for sure if the women they observe on the arms of European and North American men are "legit" girl friends or not. And if the tourists perceive them as prostititutes, that raises the whole topic of racism, etc.
That underscores the need for Sosua as a whole to create an overall atmosphere of cultural and leisure pursuits that will so capture the visitors that they won't have time to scan the streets, bars, and restaurants wondering who those women are!
The central park can be the sparkplug for that. If folklorico presentations occur there in a lovely outdoor setting, perhaps AI guests will choose those over the ones on the stage at their property. If horses and carriages reappear on the streets, there is no doubt that people will hire them--assuming that there are nice things to see as they clip-clop through town.
This is no small undertaking, but the most effective way to overcome the prostitution issue is to devise competing attractions--not because the urges of unattached men will go away, but because "traditional" tourism demands a large touch of show business.
It appears that Sosua's natural blessings of a great beach and a center city that has quaintness potential might just be getting a large boost from this new property--this might be the last chance to reclaim the town's spot in tourists' mind and hearts as opposed to areas of the body just a bit lower.
Counting on price differentials is not the best strategy.
If tourists are vital to Sosua's well-being, which is obvious, they will not know for sure if the women they observe on the arms of European and North American men are "legit" girl friends or not. And if the tourists perceive them as prostititutes, that raises the whole topic of racism, etc.
That underscores the need for Sosua as a whole to create an overall atmosphere of cultural and leisure pursuits that will so capture the visitors that they won't have time to scan the streets, bars, and restaurants wondering who those women are!
The central park can be the sparkplug for that. If folklorico presentations occur there in a lovely outdoor setting, perhaps AI guests will choose those over the ones on the stage at their property. If horses and carriages reappear on the streets, there is no doubt that people will hire them--assuming that there are nice things to see as they clip-clop through town.
This is no small undertaking, but the most effective way to overcome the prostitution issue is to devise competing attractions--not because the urges of unattached men will go away, but because "traditional" tourism demands a large touch of show business.
It appears that Sosua's natural blessings of a great beach and a center city that has quaintness potential might just be getting a large boost from this new property--this might be the last chance to reclaim the town's spot in tourists' mind and hearts as opposed to areas of the body just a bit lower.
Counting on price differentials is not the best strategy.
You don't have to tell me about things fake in Atlanta, my ex-fiance is from there (she had fake boobs) and ended up taking off with my engagement ring, even after knowing her for 10 years. Nice huh?
A girl from Atlanta
Atlanta women, most beautiful in the world, but most ruthless. Good news I am now in the DR not ATL>
Atlanta women, most beautiful in the world, but most ruthless. Good news I am now in the DR not ATL>
Which came first,the Prostitute,or the John?
If you landed in the middle of the Sahara Desert you would not find prostitutes wandering around,why not? No demand! First come the "Johns",then prostitutes,more "Johns",then more prostitutes.Sosua has a large number of foreign men looking for cheap sex with young dominican girls! The,"I'm going to lock up your "girlfriend Scheme" unless you pay 1000 pesos"!has "wiskers"! You can use the term,"girlfriend","nice","regular","Normal",or what ever you want to describe the young dominican girl you are screwing,and helping out financially,but it is still "Play-For-Pay"!Sosua without young dominican girls willing to have sex with men for $$$$$$$$$$,would be in worse economic condition than it is now! CRISCO
If you landed in the middle of the Sahara Desert you would not find prostitutes wandering around,why not? No demand! First come the "Johns",then prostitutes,more "Johns",then more prostitutes.Sosua has a large number of foreign men looking for cheap sex with young dominican girls! The,"I'm going to lock up your "girlfriend Scheme" unless you pay 1000 pesos"!has "wiskers"! You can use the term,"girlfriend","nice","regular","Normal",or what ever you want to describe the young dominican girl you are screwing,and helping out financially,but it is still "Play-For-Pay"!Sosua without young dominican girls willing to have sex with men for $$$$$$$$$$,would be in worse economic condition than it is now! CRISCO
In the absence of other attractions.......
The fact remains that Sosua has the potential to be something other than it is. It reminds me of lush, tropical cities in other parts of the world, plus the ease of getting there from other places makes its downward spiral so much more disturbing.
But spirals can also occur in the other direction--and I am convinced that it can happen in Sosua with the proper will.
Even NYC's Great White Way (Theater District) has only recently lost its seedy necklace of porn palaces and streetwalkers--and criss is right that men will always be seeking to pay for sex.
But that doesn't mean that Sosua's (and the federal government's) leaders have to settle for what the town has become.
When I get back down to the DR in November, I am hopeful of seeing the new resort, whatever it is called lately, force its neighbors to spruce up, to get creative, and to declare a kind of attraction war on the AI's.
I was in Antiqua Guatemala 18 months ago, and admittedly it is one of the world's most beautiful colonial cities. But the city square was the hub of everything--Sosua's park can be that again, and by creating authentic reasons for tourists to be there will draw them out from the AI's.
Maybe by creating a Sosua currency that is bought in one location and spent among vendors in the park and along the streets--with various discounts at certain price points--will create a way to wean tourists off the AI's. Fight fire with fire.
There is a reason there are no all-inclusives in Antiqua Guatemala--it is because the city is the attraction.
The fact remains that Sosua has the potential to be something other than it is. It reminds me of lush, tropical cities in other parts of the world, plus the ease of getting there from other places makes its downward spiral so much more disturbing.
But spirals can also occur in the other direction--and I am convinced that it can happen in Sosua with the proper will.
Even NYC's Great White Way (Theater District) has only recently lost its seedy necklace of porn palaces and streetwalkers--and criss is right that men will always be seeking to pay for sex.
But that doesn't mean that Sosua's (and the federal government's) leaders have to settle for what the town has become.
When I get back down to the DR in November, I am hopeful of seeing the new resort, whatever it is called lately, force its neighbors to spruce up, to get creative, and to declare a kind of attraction war on the AI's.
I was in Antiqua Guatemala 18 months ago, and admittedly it is one of the world's most beautiful colonial cities. But the city square was the hub of everything--Sosua's park can be that again, and by creating authentic reasons for tourists to be there will draw them out from the AI's.
Maybe by creating a Sosua currency that is bought in one location and spent among vendors in the park and along the streets--with various discounts at certain price points--will create a way to wean tourists off the AI's. Fight fire with fire.
There is a reason there are no all-inclusives in Antiqua Guatemala--it is because the city is the attraction.
I know many people don't like prostitution, and i agree that some of the prostitutes in Sosua are agressive, and a pain in the ass. But if you take away the massage parlours, the strip clubs, the prostitutes, and all the girls that are kind of semi pros, it would have been the fastest killing of a town that you ever seen. Almost everything would have been closed down, and there would have been only AI's left.
take away the prostitutes, and you therefore must close the doors?
This all or nothing thinking may explain why the town is in the situation it is in. It is not about subtracting, it's about substituting.
For example, let's look again at Antiqua Guatemala. One of its biggest commercial successes is the teaching of Spanish to people from throughout the world. Why wouldn't Sosua, for example, succeed in being a place where people of all ages come to relax on a beautiful beach, study Spanish with teachers who speak it well, and sit around the cafes at night, etc. etc. etc.?
Sure there is enormous architectural beauty in Antiqua Guatemala, but the reality is that well off students from around the workd go there en masse to "learn Spanish". They visit the churches, etc. once and then they go to class and hang out in the bars and clubs socializing and, oh yeah, spending money.
There has to be an equal number of international travellers who want to get tan, drink Presidente and learn Spanish in a great, friendly, affordable Caribbean country. They can get their architectural dose on a trip or two to the capital and, voila, you have a new commercial focus for Sosua.
There are many other approaches to take to position Sosua as something other than a place to come for sex.
Perhaps because people think it's prostitutes or nothing.
This all or nothing thinking may explain why the town is in the situation it is in. It is not about subtracting, it's about substituting.
For example, let's look again at Antiqua Guatemala. One of its biggest commercial successes is the teaching of Spanish to people from throughout the world. Why wouldn't Sosua, for example, succeed in being a place where people of all ages come to relax on a beautiful beach, study Spanish with teachers who speak it well, and sit around the cafes at night, etc. etc. etc.?
Sure there is enormous architectural beauty in Antiqua Guatemala, but the reality is that well off students from around the workd go there en masse to "learn Spanish". They visit the churches, etc. once and then they go to class and hang out in the bars and clubs socializing and, oh yeah, spending money.
There has to be an equal number of international travellers who want to get tan, drink Presidente and learn Spanish in a great, friendly, affordable Caribbean country. They can get their architectural dose on a trip or two to the capital and, voila, you have a new commercial focus for Sosua.
There are many other approaches to take to position Sosua as something other than a place to come for sex.
Perhaps because people think it's prostitutes or nothing.
It's called vision and organization. Like anyone in the government really gives a dam if it survives or dies, they have 4 years to make their money. You are better off keeping the government out of it. Punta Cana is a good example. Plus some of the nicer cleaner towns around the country look after themselves, local businesses and the community do the work.
Everyone is blaming everyone else for it's slow decline.
If anyone thinks that it's lack of prostitution that is killing Sosua, then they need to get a better perspective of this planet and the DR in general. Hundreds of towns around the globe are booming and it's not down to prostitution. It's not about that, it's about lack of vision and organization on a local level.
An injection of government money or a few new roofs on old shacks
are just band aids, short term fixes, make the papers etc etc.
It's up to the private sector and the people of Sosua to pull themselves out of the gutter.
Sosua is worth saving and developing, just needs someone with some vision and balls to make the first move.
Everyone is blaming everyone else for it's slow decline.
If anyone thinks that it's lack of prostitution that is killing Sosua, then they need to get a better perspective of this planet and the DR in general. Hundreds of towns around the globe are booming and it's not down to prostitution. It's not about that, it's about lack of vision and organization on a local level.
An injection of government money or a few new roofs on old shacks
are just band aids, short term fixes, make the papers etc etc.
It's up to the private sector and the people of Sosua to pull themselves out of the gutter.
Sosua is worth saving and developing, just needs someone with some vision and balls to make the first move.
Re: Re: Robert you are on the right track
Thats unacceptable to all the hard working honest people with small pay.
The size of the salary has little to do with the morals
of the person.
Wittness the high paid politicos in latin countries under investigation right now. and the american CEO's CFO's etc. from Enron , Worldcom with multi million dollar salaries who still cook the books for bigger bonnuses.
They are our real monkeys.
Robert said:
Thats unacceptable to all the hard working honest people with small pay.
The size of the salary has little to do with the morals
of the person.
Wittness the high paid politicos in latin countries under investigation right now. and the american CEO's CFO's etc. from Enron , Worldcom with multi million dollar salaries who still cook the books for bigger bonnuses.
They are our real monkeys.
That's the point. They want to clean it up. Most of the businesses that suffer or foreign owned and from the viewpoint of those that pay the police, these businesses are part of the problem of preventing the town from having a nice upscale international reputation. Remember, face is everything.
Upscale tourists do not generally want to mix with the local poor people, riff-raff, or get robbed. They don't CARE if the tourists go away. That's not the kind of tourist they want. The kind going away were embarassing the govt. So who is pulling the strings. Who are "They?"
From what I've seen over the years, business owners and clients alike have pulled hairs trying to figure that one out. Nobody really seems to know. Suspects have been the big all-inclusives, the church, the police captain, the newspapers, ... I even heard once it was the wife of a judge that got annoyed when she caught her husband with a young local girl.
A handful of the very popular businesses just didn't pay attention to the system and tried to play it by the book. They forgot to spread the wealth through the informal system that existed before they arrived and for that, they got no favors. You get what you pay for.
They also forgot about image. Image is a big deal in the Dominican Republic. They allowed people to show up wearing the same smelly t-shirt and shorts they had on all day at the beach. It really put on a bad image and the papers had a field day making the places look like scum.
You must note that for instance in Boca Chica, the disco at the Hamaca, touted as a 5-star hotel, open to the public and having the very same people from the street, is doing fine. They have a dress code. Hell, they have an "appearance" code. And the management takes an active role in seeing that no crap goes on inside. No pick-pocketing or fighting. Tuxedo wearing staff. Upscale. Stuffy if you like, but upscale none the less.
The local businesses must take part of the responsibilty for what is happening. Change is in the wind. Sosua will turn around, just as Boca Chica is being rebuilt and redefined. Some of those failing businesses really aren't doing that town much justice and the ones that are will just have to weather the change.
When who is in charge is not clear, this is what you get. Who can businesses complain to? Some of the business owners thing the local girls are the problem. Some think the police. Some think the big all-inclusives are to blame.
What about the police coming in tearing down businesses. Literally, with chain saws and ropes. No court hearing. Just a command from a boss, no notice. I've seen it.
What about military coming in and confiscating hotel furniture, CONTRARY to the result of a judicial hearing? What about the most legit of businesses being shaken down while the darkest operations go untouched?
What about fabrications in the newspapers, tarnishing for years, the reputation of the towns?
I've seen authority flex their muscle from time to time. It isn't pretty and it isn't fair. It isn't even legal. So? Little by little though things are starting to become "Americanized" so to speak. Businesses that don't pay their taxes or don't have the right papers are being shut down, ...
One new disco right outside Boca Chica doesn't even allow SMOKING inside. This from an area where trash is regularly burned on the side of the road. Go figure. Just like the no-cell-phone-while-driving law gets put into place and enforced yet a huge chunk of drivers don't even have safe vehicles or proper insurance.
At the very least, the night crowds have been reduced to a size that can be effectively monitored by the handful of police. Many locals have been scared away or intimidated away. Many tourists have declared the area to suck for what they came for. And in their place, new people are already trickling in, people that don't know what the place was like before and like it just fine the way it is. I must admit, I haven't seen a fight in the street in a while. I used to seem the regularly, usually about 3:15am as drunk tourists got carried awa.
Major renovations began in Boca Chica a couple years ago and I think the same will happen to Sosua. Not overnight, but the government has still not settled on what the DR is going to be. Upscale or value. All-inclusive or small-business. A mix with the locals or rather gated. Straight up or wild-west. Singles or family. Planned or everybody for themself.
These towns will not stay empty. Someone will always come in where someone else failed.
What, you want fair? In a country where if they can't get the culprit, they arrest their family and hold them until they do get their culprit? In a country where people are held in jails for years without ever having their case put in front of a judge? In a country where you can be held without the possibility of bail on simple drug posession charges? In a country where even basic food and water is not given to local short-term detainees?
The Dominican Republic is NOT as safe as people on this board make it out to be, especially in the tourist towns. Violent crime is rare, but theft is WAY common. Mostly pick-pockets, jewelry grabbers, and people taking things from rooms, some theives being invited guests, some not. In the lower circles, it is even common for people to get things stolen from their houses when nobody has been there besides family and good friends. Not big stuff, but stealing none the less.
People are generally safe, property is not.
This is the Dominican Republic in towns like Boca Chica and Sosua. This is why I do not advise anybody to buy. Rent instead. What comes around goes around. One things for sure, if you don't like today, come back tomorrow. Things are always changing. I've seen it worse and I've seen it better.
Fair? Ha ha ha. Where do you think you are?
Police arrest unfairly? Talk to some people of the Trujillo days. Now those police took care of business, personally.
Upscale tourists do not generally want to mix with the local poor people, riff-raff, or get robbed. They don't CARE if the tourists go away. That's not the kind of tourist they want. The kind going away were embarassing the govt. So who is pulling the strings. Who are "They?"
From what I've seen over the years, business owners and clients alike have pulled hairs trying to figure that one out. Nobody really seems to know. Suspects have been the big all-inclusives, the church, the police captain, the newspapers, ... I even heard once it was the wife of a judge that got annoyed when she caught her husband with a young local girl.
A handful of the very popular businesses just didn't pay attention to the system and tried to play it by the book. They forgot to spread the wealth through the informal system that existed before they arrived and for that, they got no favors. You get what you pay for.
They also forgot about image. Image is a big deal in the Dominican Republic. They allowed people to show up wearing the same smelly t-shirt and shorts they had on all day at the beach. It really put on a bad image and the papers had a field day making the places look like scum.
You must note that for instance in Boca Chica, the disco at the Hamaca, touted as a 5-star hotel, open to the public and having the very same people from the street, is doing fine. They have a dress code. Hell, they have an "appearance" code. And the management takes an active role in seeing that no crap goes on inside. No pick-pocketing or fighting. Tuxedo wearing staff. Upscale. Stuffy if you like, but upscale none the less.
The local businesses must take part of the responsibilty for what is happening. Change is in the wind. Sosua will turn around, just as Boca Chica is being rebuilt and redefined. Some of those failing businesses really aren't doing that town much justice and the ones that are will just have to weather the change.
When who is in charge is not clear, this is what you get. Who can businesses complain to? Some of the business owners thing the local girls are the problem. Some think the police. Some think the big all-inclusives are to blame.
What about the police coming in tearing down businesses. Literally, with chain saws and ropes. No court hearing. Just a command from a boss, no notice. I've seen it.
What about military coming in and confiscating hotel furniture, CONTRARY to the result of a judicial hearing? What about the most legit of businesses being shaken down while the darkest operations go untouched?
What about fabrications in the newspapers, tarnishing for years, the reputation of the towns?
I've seen authority flex their muscle from time to time. It isn't pretty and it isn't fair. It isn't even legal. So? Little by little though things are starting to become "Americanized" so to speak. Businesses that don't pay their taxes or don't have the right papers are being shut down, ...
One new disco right outside Boca Chica doesn't even allow SMOKING inside. This from an area where trash is regularly burned on the side of the road. Go figure. Just like the no-cell-phone-while-driving law gets put into place and enforced yet a huge chunk of drivers don't even have safe vehicles or proper insurance.
At the very least, the night crowds have been reduced to a size that can be effectively monitored by the handful of police. Many locals have been scared away or intimidated away. Many tourists have declared the area to suck for what they came for. And in their place, new people are already trickling in, people that don't know what the place was like before and like it just fine the way it is. I must admit, I haven't seen a fight in the street in a while. I used to seem the regularly, usually about 3:15am as drunk tourists got carried awa.
Major renovations began in Boca Chica a couple years ago and I think the same will happen to Sosua. Not overnight, but the government has still not settled on what the DR is going to be. Upscale or value. All-inclusive or small-business. A mix with the locals or rather gated. Straight up or wild-west. Singles or family. Planned or everybody for themself.
These towns will not stay empty. Someone will always come in where someone else failed.
What, you want fair? In a country where if they can't get the culprit, they arrest their family and hold them until they do get their culprit? In a country where people are held in jails for years without ever having their case put in front of a judge? In a country where you can be held without the possibility of bail on simple drug posession charges? In a country where even basic food and water is not given to local short-term detainees?
The Dominican Republic is NOT as safe as people on this board make it out to be, especially in the tourist towns. Violent crime is rare, but theft is WAY common. Mostly pick-pockets, jewelry grabbers, and people taking things from rooms, some theives being invited guests, some not. In the lower circles, it is even common for people to get things stolen from their houses when nobody has been there besides family and good friends. Not big stuff, but stealing none the less.
People are generally safe, property is not.
This is the Dominican Republic in towns like Boca Chica and Sosua. This is why I do not advise anybody to buy. Rent instead. What comes around goes around. One things for sure, if you don't like today, come back tomorrow. Things are always changing. I've seen it worse and I've seen it better.
Fair? Ha ha ha. Where do you think you are?
Police arrest unfairly? Talk to some people of the Trujillo days. Now those police took care of business, personally.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Robert you are on the right track
I am not so presumptuous as to try to educate anybody .
I only have heard that excuse to often as an excuse
for the coruption that takes place here every day.
And the regalo in jim's post to get something done
what was their job in the first place is also corruption.
and should be resisted.
and for our desire to get things done fast we are all guilty of
propagating this disgusting system.
Robert said:
I am not so presumptuous as to try to educate anybody .
I only have heard that excuse to often as an excuse
for the coruption that takes place here every day.
And the regalo in jim's post to get something done
what was their job in the first place is also corruption.
and should be resisted.
and for our desire to get things done fast we are all guilty of
propagating this disgusting system.
Do you want to fix the DR's corrupt system, or do you want to get your phone turned on. You decide. Your refusal to pay will not fix the system. You will lose. The public is not with you.
Corruption can be good and bad. It can be a short cut and can get you out of a jam. Go ahead, follow the letter of the law. It's your stomach.
Forget the spin. For example, if it cost you an extra 50 pesos to get your bill straightened out, would you be OK if there had been no problem and your bill was simply 50 pesos more as a rule? If so, then you are letting your emotions guide you. They death of the regalito will be followed by higher salaries, which will in turn me higher prices. You STILL pay, so you have accomplished nothing except satisfying your personal feelings.
How is this any different than a restaurant having a "mandatory gratuity" or having to pay $10 to enter the country, or paying a "departure tax" or tipping the bouncer to let you slide on the dress code, or paying the local kid to watch your car when you go in to the stadium or paying the maletero US$2 for 30 seconds work or handing each little kid a peso so they will get out of the way or replace that hungry sad look with a smile.
Would you be happier if we were told you are expected to tip as a matter of norm? In the DR it is a matter of norm.
We don't seem to have a problem with tipping our bartenders, waiter, bell boys, maids, or a host of other people, what's the big deal? We aren't talking about a lot of money.
Corruption can be good and bad. It can be a short cut and can get you out of a jam. Go ahead, follow the letter of the law. It's your stomach.
Forget the spin. For example, if it cost you an extra 50 pesos to get your bill straightened out, would you be OK if there had been no problem and your bill was simply 50 pesos more as a rule? If so, then you are letting your emotions guide you. They death of the regalito will be followed by higher salaries, which will in turn me higher prices. You STILL pay, so you have accomplished nothing except satisfying your personal feelings.
How is this any different than a restaurant having a "mandatory gratuity" or having to pay $10 to enter the country, or paying a "departure tax" or tipping the bouncer to let you slide on the dress code, or paying the local kid to watch your car when you go in to the stadium or paying the maletero US$2 for 30 seconds work or handing each little kid a peso so they will get out of the way or replace that hungry sad look with a smile.
Would you be happier if we were told you are expected to tip as a matter of norm? In the DR it is a matter of norm.
We don't seem to have a problem with tipping our bartenders, waiter, bell boys, maids, or a host of other people, what's the big deal? We aren't talking about a lot of money.
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But the question that is getting lost is......
what direction should Sosua take to ensure its rebirth?
The questions of how to plow through the bureaucracy, etc. are valid ones, but I will simply ask once more for some ideas that will move Sosua from what many appear to think is its one and only focus--prostitution--to what it should be to ensure successful tourism. Or perhaps some other focus altogether, if ideas emerge that are not based on tourism.
Once that focus gets identified, then the questions of how to negotiate the Dominican political, law enforcement, and public utilities systems become more compelling.
If there are no ideas forthcoming about how to reposition Sosua to fight the AI scourge (or whatever), then I propose that the thread stop here. Without a clear goal in sight, I am frankly not all that interested in swapping ideas about how to get the phones to work.
Case in point--Myrtle Beach, SC simply decided as a community several decades ago to become one of America's foremost family vacation destinations. And then they did. But first they had to decide to do it and to define their vision of what they wanted to become. What's Sosua's vision?
what direction should Sosua take to ensure its rebirth?
The questions of how to plow through the bureaucracy, etc. are valid ones, but I will simply ask once more for some ideas that will move Sosua from what many appear to think is its one and only focus--prostitution--to what it should be to ensure successful tourism. Or perhaps some other focus altogether, if ideas emerge that are not based on tourism.
Once that focus gets identified, then the questions of how to negotiate the Dominican political, law enforcement, and public utilities systems become more compelling.
If there are no ideas forthcoming about how to reposition Sosua to fight the AI scourge (or whatever), then I propose that the thread stop here. Without a clear goal in sight, I am frankly not all that interested in swapping ideas about how to get the phones to work.
Case in point--Myrtle Beach, SC simply decided as a community several decades ago to become one of America's foremost family vacation destinations. And then they did. But first they had to decide to do it and to define their vision of what they wanted to become. What's Sosua's vision?
The only solution is that people who care about Sosua, and like it as it is,(or was some years ago) stops using the AI's, and instead stays on the smaller independent hotels. It's incredable that people that claims to love Sosua stays in an AI because they have used the calculater, and found out that they will save 100 dollars to stay inside the walls of Casa Marina.