Taino Descendants: Dead or Alive?

ajicaribe

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Good point

Porfio Rubirosa,
made a good point but keep in mind that the Tainos are were aboriginal people.
The spanish Galeones did not start arrive to the caribbean until the spanish exterminated all the Tainos ( raping indians, forcing the man to work like animals cutting precious wood, diggin stones and metals for the spanish kingdom).

You are correct in your points thoug. We are more African that Tainos.
As Juan Bosch once said " We have the black right behind our ears"

A good example is out pupolation of Cocolos, and Guloyas in the Sout-east cost of the island, as well as Samana.

History of the Art and Culture of Dominican Republic is fascinating but I feel that little has done to preserve and that is because of the lack of the resources dedicated for anthropological studies.

Thank you all for this pretty info.
Cheers

BTW, Porfio_Rubirosa, is this a short name for Porfirio Rubirosa that famous Dominican playboy and gigolo who was the domincan ambassador in France during el Jefe's time?

This is just a question with no intention of driving away from this post.
 
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dawnwil

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good comments

Jan-- thanks for posting Dr. Guitar's comments. I would like to speak to her one day!

diablorojo-- are you still here? I am never sure from one moment to the next! I am enjoying this topic and your comments. Yes, you are scientifically cautious ... but one can see you are fascinated by the subject too. :)

There is no agenda here, only a curiosity about this aspect of Dominican history. I don't even know why-- except it is humanly good to think that an indigenous people were not absolutely erased. I don't like the warlike nature of our species, of our tendency to see only differences among us.

Porfio--all I can say is that I see no 'implied anti-Africanism' here at all. Almost everyone is commenting on the unique cultural mix in the DR. This topic is specific: Taino descendants, dead or alive? ... and we are discussing it. It seems to me that the strongest cultural influences are in no danger of being overshadowed; it is the Taino influence that suffers still from the widely held belief that it was wiped out. Advances in genetic testing provide another opinion, one difficult to deny, although as diablorojo says, testing has not been extensive. And ajicaribe points out that lack of funding is creating missed opportunities to preserve anthropological evidence. Without prejudice, that is a shame.

Perhaps I fail to understand an underlying cultural problem in the DR... you mention the 'Enriquillo' cult... what is this? D
 
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Don't get me wrong. I am fascinated by the study of surviving Taino characteristics in the DR, but am only concerned about emphasizing it over African influence. Here is the info about "Enriquillo":

From an article by Professor Ernesto Sagas (Author of "Race and Politics in the Dominican Republic") of Southern New Hampshire University (though I don't think these are his original ideas)http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/misctopic/dominican/antihaiti.htm:

"The writings of important intellectuals of the late 19th century and early 20th century clearly reflect the anti-Haitian attitudes of the Dominican upper classes. ... Novels, short stories, and poems exalted "Dominican" traits, while denigrating Haitian influences to the point of making them appear barbaric...

...The publication of the novel Enriquillo by Manuel de Jes?s Galv?n (1909), a heroic portrayal of the indians' resistance against enslavement by the Spanish colonizers, marks the high point of this indigenista literary movement...

...the Dominican elites portrayed the Dominican people as the descendants of these brave indians and the Spanish colonists. It was a greater honor to have a rebellious indian as a predecessor than an African slave. Soon, Dominican mulattoes started considering themselves indios (an obvious reference to their claimed indian ancestry)..."
 
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dawnwil

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Thanks Porfio

Yes, I can see that the literature might echo the intellectual mindset-- it would provide a way of capturing the imagination too. I see your point now: not that the African aspect isn't recognized, but that it has been denigrated or thought shameful.

This idea, with context explained, is lovely:

Porfio_Rubirosa said:
I would prefer a pro-Dominican movement that focuses on the Dominican people as a unique mix of three cultures.

How would an individual go about this, honoring the Dominican for all aspects? Because it must have an impact on the psyche to feel shame for one's heritage. I have never had to feel so, and find it difficult to imagine... no wait, I was born a Newfie. In Canada there are many jokes... but I never took them seriously, whereas one brother was deeply affected and got in many fights when we moved to the land of plenty... Ontario. hmm.

Does this mean that today in the DR those of certain physical traits are treated differently, or shunned somehow? It is a sobering thought, and I hope not. D
 

diablorojo

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Enriquillo served two purposes, on one hand it showed a "rebel" against the Spaniards, but on the other hand he was used to show "Catholic virtues" in that he saw himself deserving of rights not as an Indio, but as a Christian.....this is the common portrayal of Native Americans in Latin literature.....the big breakthrough however was la Araucana which for the first time also used the Araucanos to demonstrate the concept of a collective hero.....

The anti-Haitian writings work on the premise of hispanidad....by glorifying the Spanish culture and casting it in opposition to the African culture of Haiti, a dualistic nature is created between the two nations.....this approach thrives on conflict and takes us back to the origins of the nations......Europe vs African slaves, white vs black, prestige vs marginalization, freedom vs slavery, and so on.....this is the logical premise which "hispanidad vs noirisme" is based on.....

The portrayal of Dominican blacks as indios morenos, and mulatos as indios was simply to counter the threat of empathy for the Haitians on behalf of those castes, and in order to prevent the negrista movement from spreading to the DR....hispanidad represented the reality of the prestige culture, yet ignored the majority of the population.....


To create an identity which encompasses all Dominicans is not hard.....all that needs to be done is to focus more on the collective struggles of the Dominicans.....independence from la madre patria, US imperialism, Haitian imperialism....we were all united in defending our nation regardless of race.....music, food.....there is a Dominican identity that encompasses us all.....the real problem is class society.....seeing ourselves divided into classes and different racial castes does not let us see that we are all the same.....
 
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Who are you?!?! And what have you done with Diablorojo?!?!

That was an educated, well reasoned addition to this thread that did not comically over emphasize mindless left wing rhetoric.
 

dawnwil

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diablorojo,

I'm enjoying your comments very much.
The last paragraph is something I've thought about quite often with respect to the entire human race... if we were about to be obliterated by the great mythical meteor, as glorified lately by a few Hollywood films, there might be more a sense of unity among us.

Given the real truth, that we all exist on a tiny rock hurtling through space...


But a broader viewpoint, that of one looking down on earth from space, is left to the philosophers. And they are not yet kings. D
 

diablorojo

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We have a choice in this world, we either work together and get along.....or we destroy ourselves. The world is like a boat, and unless we all row together and create balance in it, we risk sinking it.....as it stands, there is little balance and the world is sinking..... I say Bush will nuke the world before any meteor has time to hit....but thats another story....

Identity is a fascinating issue.....ultimately, it all comes down to what we see ourselves as....our orientation towards, Spain, Africa, or the Tainos does not depend on our genes....it depends more on our culture....if we call our nation Quisqueya then we are Quisqueyanos and pay homage to those who founded the nation.....they were a mixed group as well....

If we look at Spain, we all speak Spanish, and practice traits brought from Spanish culture, eat food influenced by Spain..... and if we look at Africa, no one can deny that there is a clear African presence in the people....

Which of these 3 we choose....or whether we choose to add the Syrian immigrants and the Lebanese, the Chinese and Japanese....the Haitians and the freed American slaves....does it make us any less Dominican? Does it diminish our roots to the nation? .....it is precisely because we all have roots there that we are Dominican......

Debates whether the influence of Tainos is genetic or not will take us no where......say there still were Tainos but they did not consider themselves to be Tainos culturally, would they still be Tainos?? There are blacks in Cazales, Haiti who speak Polishand are the remnants of Napoleon's Polish legion sent there in 1803.....or the Ethiopian Jews....the point is that psychologically and culturally there is a Taino impact on Dominican culture.....and so in this way Taino traits are alive......yes, they can be seen in Dominican faces, but without the psychological notion of attachment to those roots.....they would mean nothing.... So don't let people bring you down who say there aren't any Tainos or that they left no influence and are gone......
 

dawnwil

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diablorojo said:
We have a choice in this world, we either work together and get along.....or we destroy ourselves. The world is like a boat, and unless we all row together and create balance in it, we risk sinking it.....as it stands, there is little balance and the world is sinking.....


Amen to this!

Chomsky would like you. :)

And yes, I see what you mean on the limitations of genetic testing... certainly it is the minds and hearts of people that must be motivated. thanks for those thoughts! D
 
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Tony C

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diablorojo said:
We have a choice in this world, we either work together and get along.....or we destroy ourselves.

People have been saying that for thousands of years and guess what? They are wrong!
Like it or not there are some people who do not deserve our respect let alone our admiration. Indians are one of them(Native Americans is a misnomer). They were a week and morally corrupt society who were defeated by a small band of adventurers and farmers. Aside from a few architectural oddities they have left nothing of benefit to the world as a whole.
Progress is created by the powerful!

Did somebody really quote Chomsky? I didn't think anybody still did that!
 

Pib

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[B]Tony C[/B] said:
Indians are one of them(Native Americans is a misnomer). They were a week and morally corrupt society who were defeated by a small band of adventurers and farmers.
Indian is a misnomer. History, 2nd grade: Columbus set sails for India (or whereabouts). There were Indians already, thus the native (notice small n) Americans (of a zillion different tribes) were not Indians.

Can you pls. elaborate on "morally corrupt"? What does that mean? How did you reach that conclusion? By what standards did you measure morals? Do you mean ALL of them: Cherokees? Aztecs? Arawaks? Incas? All the others? ALL OF THEM?
 
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Tony C

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Pib said:
Indian is a misnomer. History, 2nd grade: Columbus set sails for India (or whereabouts). There were Indians already, thus the native (notice small n) Americans (of a zillion different tribes) were not Indians.

Can you pls. elaborate on "morally corrupt"? What does that mean? How did you reach that conclusion? By what standards did you measure morals? Do you mean ALL of them: Cherokees? Aztecs? Arawaks? Incas? All the others? ALL OF THEM?

The area Columbus discovered is called the West Indies. Thats the name like it or not. Hence the people there are called Indians.

Native American is a misnomer. They are neither native nor American.
They are Migratory Asian aboriginals.

Morally corrupt Lets see.....Some practiced Canibalism(The Caribes). Some practiced ritual human Scarifice(Aztecs). Some Practiced genocide(Incas). Slavery was common place. So was rape and murder.
Many of these traits were prevelant in their European conquerors but at least the European had abandoned Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice almost 2 millenia before.
Anyway how can you glorify a people who just rolled over and died? For me it is the worse sin imaginable not to want to live.
Their are many other cultures who achieved so much more in less time than the indians
 

mondongo

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QUOTE]Originally posted by diablorojo
We have a choice in this world, we either work together and get along.....or we destroy ourselves. [/QUOTE]

good post, diablo.

The 21st century winner is destruction. Capitalism has won....you cannot fight it.....to survive, you must engage....taken to an extreme, capitalism will lead to destruction....those who cannot/will not understand this... are doomed to suffer the consequnces sometime in this millenium....

Survival of the fittest has served this planet well....there is no better method identify a winner...

All models have limitations....all models have limited applicability...no one model can describe all processes.....capitalism has limitations..

The white man could and did destroy the weaker native Americans. They wanted the land....and so they took it. Thats the way its supposed to work under survival of the fittest.

The most important rule of this game: the loser has to be a good loser....loser must accept defeat and retreat to a subservient role.....if the loser is unwilling to do this ...he must perish.

In today's winning system....those who have lost are unwilling to accept the loser's subservient role..but the gigantic difference is that with today's technology, even losers have the capacility to inflict damage on the winner.

MORAL OF THE STORY: unfettered extreme capitalism will implode...the capitalist winners must realize this and not demand total abdication from the losers...else the winners MUST completely eradicate all the losers.
 

Pib

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The area Columbus discovered is called the West Indies. Thats the name like it or not. Hence the people there are called Indians. Native American is a misnomer. They are neither native nor American.
Let me set this straight, both the name West Indies and America were given to this corner of a round planet based on wrong beliefs. Neither was more correct than the other. If they chose to call themselves Native Americans they are in their right to do so. I can call people from Thailand Siamese until I am blue in the face, this won?t change the fact that for THEM a citizen of Thailand is Thai, not Siamese. People do get to call themselves whatever they want.

They are Migratory Asian aboriginals
No, they are migratory AFRICAN aboriginals, and so are all of us according to current scientific consensus. Migratory? When did they migrate? How long does one have to stay in one place to be considered native? Are citizens of the USA ?Migratory English aboriginals??

Morally corrupt Lets see.....Some practiced Canibalism(The Caribes). Some practiced ritual human Scarifice(Aztecs). Some Practiced genocide(Incas). Slavery was common place. So was rape and murder.
It is a common suspicion among historians that the accusation of cannibalism was utilized by the Conquistadores to justify the carnage. After all, these people can?t be really "like us" if they eat their fellow human beings, right? It was common throughout history to use the same argument to justify contempt for the enemy. Little has been brought to light in the form of actual proof for that accusation.

Although I do not deny there is actual proof of human sacrifice in the Aztec society, this was also used as justification for the treatment the defeated Aztecs received. If you must know the ancient Nordic tribes are suspected of having practiced human sacrifice, that doesn?t make me think any less of their descendant (Acqua on the other hand?).

Of course you must know that there were MANY MORE tribes than just the Aztec and the Caribs, right? Are all the rest deserving of your contempt?

Can you pls. point to your source that ?rape and murder? was more prevalent then than it is today in (pick any country)? Statistics please?

Many of these traits were prevelant in their European conquerors but at least the European had abandoned Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice almost 2 millenia before.
Not so fast honey. Have you read any newspaper, say in the last 10 years? Or any books about 20th century history? Maybe they weren?t eating each other, but some weren?t any less brutal. BTW, is human sacrifice the same as ?killing for religious reason??

Anyway how can you glorify a people who just rolled over and died? For me it is the worse sin imaginable not to want to live. Their are many other cultures who achieved so much more in less time than the indians.
They didn?t roll over. The victor rolled over them. They had inferior weapons and not much defense for western diseases, which lead to their defeat (warning: oversimplified explanation). So is history, that didn?t make them ?morally corrupt?; at least no more than any other loser in a war.
 
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Jan

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Counting coup

In general..the "naitve American" peoples counted coup in war. It was more courageous to touch another warrior than to kill him. Tehy wore their feathers to show what they did in battle. Different cuts on the feather, a red spot, all showed different things they did in war. This was mostly their wars before the Euopena..white man cane along. Alot of their battles were show and bravery..not killing.
When the Europeans came along the "indians" didn't know what to do and they could not ban togehter to fight as one. They were fighting amongst themselves and against the whites and so they lost.
The white man took the childern away from the famlies and put them in "white" schools. Threatened to kill them if they used their native language. This is how they got control. Just like modern day. "Learn to speak a little birt of english. learn to wear a suit and tie, This way I will survive" Sort of sad to me that all were made into clones of their captors.,
To me this is just like the Latin countries. If they would all stop theior battles they could become the largest nation in the world. In some ways theyer like the "indians". Fighting anongst themselves. If they would join togehter they could overcome the USA and be the next world leaders.
Did I go off subject? Sorry...
Just things I have thought about. The "indians" lost because they could not join together...a nation seperated will fall...
Mind you..this is just my opinion.....
*Little note..did you know that in the 70's the US government were sterilizing some "indian" women when they had babies so they couldn't have more kids, against their will...I found this hard to belive but many of my "indian" friends that live on the rez (reservations) have told me this
 

diablorojo

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Mondongo---I agree with you....but capitalism has not won, that is why there is still resistence, and why the capitalist camp has taken drastic measures to prevent any dissent......When we say capitalism, we have to understand that we are discussing capitalism in all of its evolutionary stages, from the age of god kings, to feudalism, to colonialism, to monopoly industrialization, to the age of globalization......all we see from these stages is genocide, destruction of the environment, and a completely destabilized world...... the tension and damage has built up to the point in which we are today.....yes, in the 21st century we will most likely suffer the utmost consequences for our actions.....

Survival of the fittest does not mean the survival of the most brutal.....on the contrary, in Darwinistic terms it means the organism best adapted to its particular environment, which is best to thrive off of its ecological niche.....we have destroyed our so much, how do we really claim to be the fittest in those terms? We are like parasites, destroy our environment, then move on to destroy that of other species.....yet we fail to understand that what may be profitable in the short term is not so in the long term.

Capitalism has limitations, but the capitalists will do all they can to stretch those......remember, every right a worker has today, every act to protect the environment, all were fought for hard and long....nothing was ever given.

The white man did not kill the "weaker" Native American.....the colonization of the new world occurred differently in each part....the English used genocide as a tool of conquest....The Spaniards and Portuguese used language, religion, miscegenation.......and the divide and conquer technique.... the French used the divide and conquer technique the best though....

The world is not a game of soccer, it is more like chess.....there is no rule for loser or winner.......there is no winner or loser, only changes in the power relations......power exists from bottom to top as well as top to bottom....Resistence is often passive.....but it is there.....



Tony C...the Latin hater!

Native Amricans are natives of the continent.....the label given to them by Colon does not matter as much as their emic designation.....an ethnocentric view will get one no where near reality.

They came from Asia some 25.000 years ago, your family entered the Americas when? Do not be so arrogant......everyone came from somewhere.......in the remote past we all came from Africa....big deal......

Cannibalism was practiced by Germanic tribes in Europe, by Celts.......in religious ceremonies. It was practiced pretty much everywhere as a ritual......slavery, rape, and murder were "gifts" brought by the "civilized" white people to the continent.....

Genocide of 100 million natives in the USA is more brutal than the occasional human sacrifice in a religious context.....the motivation, the act, are very different, there is no moral highground for the Europeans....

In the USA the Native Americans were murdered in campaigns of genocide and the first massive use of biological weapons.....giving them small pox infested blankets and making them march to Oklahoma territory.....read about the Trail of Tears.... In Latin America the Native Americans were not killed off, did not die off.......many still remain, many mixed with the Spaniards to form mestizo culture, others with Africans....Latin America has always been a place where you see a Native American culture with a Spanish mask over it......creolization and related processes define the processes of cultural development on the continent......the use of miscegenation to neutralize potential conflict was state policy of Spain and Portugal....


Jan--

You seem to know your stuff! Outside the context of nation states, war has always been mostly symbolic......look at Papua New Guinea where this is still practiced, war is seen as a way to show bravery and chase the enemy off, it is a magical ritual more than a frenzy of bloodlust......sometimes no one is even killed, and when killing occurs it is of a few people......then a feast to celebrate peace is made.....Australian Aborigines, and Tainos practiced similar tactics.....thats why it was so easy for the Caribes to wipe out so many of the Tainos......sometimes, war was seen as a way to kill the "soul" of the enemy warriors, a lot of the body art and decorations used by warriors were to have magical properties to ward off attack from others, and enable them to attack back.....

The divide and conquer technique was used in Mexico and the Andes, the Aztecs and Quechuas were not the most beloved groups so it was easy to enlist others to fight them, let them bleed each other, then take over......Disease also played a large role in depleting populations.....

Antonio de Nebrija said that the Spanish language and religion would be the tools of Empire, and he was right.....cultural genocide through policies of hispanization and homogenization were the decisive factor in Spanish victories. Spain viewed the conquest of the Americas as a continuation of the reconquista, and this is the cultural context in which the conquest must be viewed......

However there was much resistence to this cultural genocide and thats where creolization comes in....the creation of a mestizo culture....... and the defense of indigineous rights using the tools of the Spaniards......an intersting thing is the literary genre of protest letters from the 16 to mid 17 centuries, where Indiginous Christians write in defense of indiginous culture in Spanish....Guaman Poma, Santa Cruz Pachacuti, el Ica Garcilaso de la Vega, Tupac Amaru are among the best known figures of this genre......it shows how power structures worked off each other......from bottom to top, to regulate the middle, thus interaction between the crown and these oppressed Native Americans helped curb the abuse being done by the European middlemen.....

A Latin American union has been the dream since independence.....even in the DR, the first flag that was used was that of "Gran Colombia" with an extra star symbolizing the DR.....this was the dream of Bolivar, who's father was the viceroy in Santo DOmingo :)! Its still a dream among intellectuals....thats why the more educated a Latin American is, the more solidarity they show their brothers and sisters......

------

Back to the topic of Tainos.......they are a vital part of our identity, as long as we call Quisqueya Quisqieya and Boriquen Boriquen and Haiti is Haiti.......then there will be a Taino legacy, heritage, and living remnant......
 

Tony C

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Tony C...the Latin hater!

And where did you come up with that thought? Tell me where I have made one comment showing a hatred or even a dislike towards Latins as a group. Not Indians. Not Blacks but Latin.

I am extremely proud of my Latin heritage. My ancestors played an active role in the discovery and conquest of the New World. I have lived in, spent significant time in or have visited every Spanish speaking country on this planet except 1(Uruguay)! I have seen the good and the bad and I am not affraid to point it out.

You can spin the facts all you want but try to face the facts.
Indian society in the Americas was at best backward.
Aside from a few small groups of people, Human Sacrifice and Canibalism had been deleted from the Western European continent almost 2 thousand years ago.
"slavery, rape, and murder were "gifts" brought by the "civilized" white people to the continent....." You really need to stop being selective in your reading.
Capitalism is the only economic system that has been proven to work. The economic failures of the Third World is a direct result of their failure to embrace it. Look at what great benefits Socialism has done in Africa!
Your idealism is admirable but you have to open your eyes. the world is a nasty place. Always was. Always will be. People by their very nature are capitalists. because of this there will always be the "Haves" and the "Have-nots". My only problem is when the "have-Nots" do not have the freedom to work hard to become one of the "Haves" Socialism prevents people from accomplishing this.
I have no worries about the future of this planet. I realize that Capitalism will always win out as long as their are people who want to better themselves.
 

Pib

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People, this thread IS NOT about capitalism... want to discuss that? start another thread. Else I will have to start deleting posts, and trust me, I don't want to do that.

And diablorojo pls. keep personal attacks out your posts. I hope that you can make a point without using them. Any more of that and your posts will be deleted.

Back to the OP:

diablorojo, you are not making yourself a favor by saying that
"slavery, rape, and murder were "gifts" brought by the "civilized" white people to the continent....."
That's very, naive to the say the least. Slavery was practiced in pre-columbian America by some tribes (Caribs for example)... and c'mon, do you think that all these people lived in peace and harmony for thousands of years prior to the arrival of Europeans? Gimme a break. Read the history of the Aztecs.

And Tony, you didn't answer my questions.
 

diablorojo

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PIB....

The Aztecs and Mayans are always brought up when discussing the the warlike and unsavory aspects of Native American civilizations.....the Caribes, Jivaros as well......yet out of all the hundreds of tribes on the continent, these 4 do not serve as a representation of even their prospective regions.....

Look at Tawantinsuyu, the Inca Empire and you see a peaceful state.....look at the tribes of North America and the Caribe....The Amazonas....

De facto slavery and de facto war existed in the new world, but the institutions were very different from the European versions....I am sure Jan could tell us a lot more about this...her posts here are pretty enlightening.....

Remember, we are dealing with colonialization, conquest....the rape of what is today the third world allowed for the economic basis of labor and raw materials as well as capital to create industrialization in the colonialist imperialist camp.....the first and third worlds exist in dialectic opposition to each other, and this relationship today stems directly from the unequal distributions of power during colonialism.......The Europeans totally disrupted the natural processes and development of the continent........You cannot argue that the pre-Colombian era was more brutal and less "civilized" than the colonial era.....even with socalled independence, for the African and Native American elements of society, all it meant was the replacement of external colonialism with internal colonialism......


Tony C....

Its one thing to be proud of your heritage for reasons of culture, and another to glorify the "conquista".....My family played a role as well, larger than I would have liked it to.....but we can't erase the past, can't change it, but can understand the cultural and psychological processes which allowed for what happened to have happened.......

Native Americans, Africans, all have a right to be proud of their culture just as anyone else.....no culture is better than any other, just different, and different does not mean bad....

Slavery existed in Europe......the Vikings were slave traders, thats about up to 900 years ago, slavery existed in Spain until 1516 about....indentured servitude was de facto slavery up to the 19th century......the import of African slaves to Portugal in the 19th.....serfdom.....slavery is not remote in Europe......it existed under other names, but such is society, it evolves....

The third world exists due to colonialism and its associated atrocities, as I said above, it exists in a direct dialectic opposition to the first world.....