Tainos in the DR?

[SuperConejo]

Baracutay, in no way am i minimizing the contribution of Taino genetic/linguistic cultural things to the dominican culture. I did not mean my words in a scientific way, i was just speculating, Tainos were obviously never exterminated. My estimate was a wild guess like i guess, and i said 10 to 25%, most likely 25%, it could be more or less of course. I agree with you whole heartedly that the dominican republic is also very Zambo (AfroIndian) atleast culturally. As far as the rivers, of course they will have Taino names. Quisqueya-Ayiti is the homeland of the Tainos, some of our ancestors. Yuka, Mamei, and alot of fruits/vegetables have Taino names. I think you are right that there are more Taino names and words then African ones. and thats for a logical reason, its Taino territory, and because of the survival of Taino blood/culture in some dominicans. Bani is said to be a taino word for abudance of water, it strikes me very coincidental that Senegal has a river named Bani, as well as a riverside city named Bani. I think research needs to be done on that to see if there is any relations, or if maybe Africans from senegal might have interacted with Tainos prior to Colombus. But that is a whole other field. There are many other African words in common dominican language, not counting the countless ones from the countryside, my grandmother is a great source of them, LOL. Not all african slaves came directly from africa, some spoke spanish because they were raised in spain, this may explain why we dont speak 4 African languages like Cuba. Heres a few more african words we use, Bata, Banda, Bomba, Batucar, Bicho, Bobo, ?o?o, bonbon,chumbando, grifo, gayumba, gre?a, guandu, Yeyo, Guinea, Guineo, Mango, Moco. I never said Gaga was wholly african, Vodou and 21 divisiones have obvious Taino components as well. But they are overshadowed by the African components who make up most of it, nevertheless they are there. Even Palo which is one of the most african musics in the whole hemisphere has a Taino component, the Guira. Also there is some Barrios with african names, such as Los Minas, Catanga, and some more i cant recalll right now.

Hermano, i agree with you on the commonality between African and Indegenous peoples. I was just bringing up some of the African contributions as well. Its always been a AfroTaino struggle, from the beginning of the 1500s. This is why Enriquillo rebelled not long After the Muslim African slaves in Diego Colons plantation. Africans and Indegenous people got along and communicated well. And not long after u had Lemba a Kongo slave in 1540. There has always been unity, intermarriage, and intercultural exchange between the two groups. This is why in the Caves of Santo domingo they have found beautiful Taino art, next to beautiful Kongolese Offering pots called Ngangas, to prove the interaction of the two.

 

[Baracutay]

Compadre please forgive if I come across at times at being defensive. But for a person who has devoted his life to the subject at hand, at times I dont really understand why Taino, for some (obviously not you) has such a question mark attached to it when its actually pretty obvious. I work at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian in New York as a program coordinator. My job is to bring Native people from across the western hemisphere to do cultural programs at our museum. It never ceases to amaze me just how much in common we have with other indigenous people of North and South America.
Once a week I get to lecture on our own indigenous survival/continuites and every now and then I end up in a debate regarding the topic at hand. For the most part I find that people who wholely deny Taino contribution or critique people (such as myself) who identify with Taino as having an internally consistant system of arguments that depend on circular logic to blot out all the critical facts. Its almost like discussing theology with say a Jehova's witness at 7:30 am,when they come knocking, who no matter what you say about your own personal beliefs, will always bring it back to the bible and promptly explain to you why you were wrong all along!
For indigenistas the sentiment is that we, as a people with a land base, and ancestral connections to our homeland, feel that once the Indian is taken out of the picture, we are somehow rendered as immigrants in our own homeland. Kind of explains how in Mexico, where 90 % of the people are indigenous and yet when we see novelas only the white Mexicans are shown.
In work related trips to Sonora, Mexico, where there are regions where the people are very, very, dark skinned and speak nothing but Mayo/Yaqui Indian tongues, even here you find denial of Indian contribution.\, much in the same way we do in Kiskeya. I met people on my trips who were as phenotypically Indian as you can get and yet, they could not or would not identify as Indian, prefering instead to be called Mexican and in essence somehow, white.
Dominicans are much the same, I always say " we see ourselves as a white people, even though 95 % of us have a year round Tan.
Hasta pronto hermano y p'alante

 

[SuperConejo]

ME and you are in the same struggle. Trying to revive roots that are always strample on. I try to bring out education about the African roots in the dominican republic, i never deny the Taino ones. I am hand in hand with Indegenista movements, somos hermanos. I have a very strong admiration for the mexica movement. I love their Rhetoric "Not Hispanic, Not Latino, we are the indegenous people of Anauhac". I really respect, admire and support your movement. You provided some great scientific material for the DNA. See having Indegenista, and Afro-centric movements in the dominican republic is very important and its happening right now. It is necessary to rescue the trampled and mistreated roots of Dominican society, Yaya Wankila (Mother Africa) and Mama Quisqueya-Ayiti. Keep us posted with your research.

 

[El mero mero]

Bata, Banda, Bomba, Batucar, Bicho, Bobo, ?o?o, bonbon,chumbando, grifo, gayumba, gre?a, guandu, Yeyo, Guinea, Guineo, Mango, Moco. are combination of spanish and indigenas from america. In all spanish country all these words are common like ecuador, colombian, peru, central y south america even mexico. In spain, Mango, moco , bomba, yeyo are also use. I just imagin an african trying to pronounce these words. Why in quisqueya there is no african language because in quisqueya had the smaller percentage of african brought by spain compare to hispanoamerica plus most of that african live in spain that they knew the spanish. You know why in quisqueya there is a lot blacks because haiti and haiti when they brought the cocolo during the invansion. In quisqueya it is dificult to find the origanal negroi.


according to cristobal colon the native of america were dark skins y even he said that the ones that he found in quisqueya were lighter skins and they can be brought to spain beacuase of the light skins taken form his diary. Right now the native of america that you see with light skins is bacause they are mixed with spanards.

I agree that most of the native of quisqueya they are coming from mexico and south america. In quisqueya, there were large popolation of natives compare to cuba and puerto rico. a lot of natives of quisqueya migrated to cuba during colonizacion like hatuey that took with him 400 natives of quisqueya.

Baracutay, a question for you how have you ever thought why quisqueya had the large percentage of native of america compares to cuba. If cuba is bigger than quisqueya why in quisqueya was approximately 1 million or more or less of natives compare to cuba that was empty. Then puerto rico had around 19 thounsands or less more than cuba. first qusiqueya has the larger population of natives. then puerto rico has large population than cuba and geographically puerto rico is closer to quisqueya than cuba. then cuba has the smaller population. are natives of quisqueya migrated to puerto rico and cuba or in quisqueya was receiving strong population from mexico and south america or the growth of population was bigger in quisqueya.

Baracutay, I met aorund 4 descendents of natives of america from quisqueya. I ask them from what part of santo doming they are coming from and they told from the town. however, they have the color of mestizo with charasteristics more of the natives than whites. they told that their parents teach them to know their origen and natives cultures. Also they told me that both or one of their parents are natives of america.

Baracutay, I can tell you something that the culture from south america and mexico are very similar to quisqueya. los campesinos de mexico have the same absent, method of speak like los neto campesinos cibaeno de quisqueya. I met campesinos from peru, colombia, ecuador and they speak with the same absent and sometimes they use la i, but the closer one are the campesinos from mexico. I have freinds from peru , ecuador, colombianos that went to the towns of santo domingo. I ask them what they think about the culture from the towns of santo domingo, they told me that they are very similar to their culture specially the food, but they told that indians from peru, ecuador, colombia use more this technique of mofongo, mangu, tamales " pastel en hojas" , charca, la arepa, etc.. they identify the culture from the quisqueya towns to thier indios from their countries than themselves. All our food are very common south america and central and mexico except la tortilla de maiz but we have la tortilla de cuya el casabe y la tortilla de huevo con patata.

I can tell you something that the culture, food and traditon from quisqueya are from spain and native of quisqueya basically. Our method of food comes from native of quisqueya combine with espanol. the same thing with the language I use espanol to speak but we still use all native word of quisqueya for towns, food and name. And the majority of these words are the contribution of native language to al espanol de hoy. From african language there is nothing to the quisqueyanos espanol maybe one or two but I will give a trophy if you can tell me who they are and if it is a common word use in santo domingo.

Dont give the word moco, bata, batea, nono, banda, grena like somebody that he is really funny says. conejo the word bata, la word la ne, word ending ar , bicho are common from spanish language. and other are combination between spanish and indian. do you know that word papa in spain is patata, or other cacata and fonda use also in mexico or catatumba are these words are africans je je je.


As you may notice I edited your post. If you wish to post here then you must play by our rules. If you don't wish to do that then go somewhere else!

The Moderator

 

[Chip00]

With regard to my interest in the Taino roots in the DR I would say that I don't really have an agenda or desire to "educate" the Dominican people but as a student of history and cultural anthropology am interested in knowing the facts.

IMO It is apparent to me the Taino roots apparent in the faces of everyday Dominicans. This type of mixture is definitely different than the standard mulatto combination of European and black. I believe Jorge's colleague's research will bear this out. As far as the African roots that goes without saying that is a very prominent component as well.

In my humble opinion what I would hope that people realize that such intense focus of a certain race and their values, etc can be divisive and can actually be destructive as in the case of my home, the US. My hope for the DR is that racial "awareness" is never developed to the level that it is in the US, in that it could be a cause for division, but rather a understanding and knowledge of one's roots that does not take away in any way from their "Dominicanism", but only adds to it.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Up to this point this thread has been informative and interesting. In your attempt to continue this discussion do not deviate from the subject matter of the OP and under no circumstances do you want to come out like wee winnie minnow and go into the 'attack' mode.

Rick

 

[Mirador]

OK, sorry, low blow. I retract my previous post if deemed offensive or inappropriate...

 

[Rick Snyder]

Mirador I sensed nor saw any name calling or disrespect in your post so my message wasn't directed at you personally. You may or may not have been insinuating that some people are born with tails but I failed to notice if it was directed at any particular nationality or if in fact you were insinuating such.

Though your post did deal with the gene pool I really failed to see whereas it had to deal with Taino DNA as it relates to the DR.

Let's get back on track.

Rick

 

[Baracutay]

I posted a reply this afternoon and somehow it did not make it (my error no doubt)!
I want to say to Superconejo that I agree with him wholeheartly. There is a need for Dominicans to embrace all of our heritages, after all we are a multi-cultural/multi-ethinic race of people.
Anyone should (and could if they really wanted to) be able to see the importance of the African contribution to our special melting pot (dare I call it Sancocho). What is truly remarkable of African peoples for me, is the ability they had to keep a sense of self and identity while re-creating themselves into a new people, after being stripped of their language and culture. But African spirituallity has a tenacity much like Taino culture. It just cannot be erased. Can anyone honestly not feel the power of African Drums?
I can only hope that one day in the DR we find it in ourselves to honor and identify with the Taino with the same intensity as we do for the Spanish.
These threads begin with the question: are there any Taino descendants left? The Answer is yes. The Taino never became extinct, that is the biggest myth of our history. What did die at the hands of the invaders was a peoples right to a collective dream of their future and that of their children. I wonder, what is our dream today? And what hopes do we have for our people?
I am Taino, that is my identity, but I am also proud of my African/Spanish heritage as well, without them I would not be the same human being I am today. It would be great if we can except the fact that no matter what group we identify with, we cannot negate nor should we want to. After all this is what makes us such beautiful people. Thank God I am Dominican!

Baracutay

 

[NALs]

I am Taino, that is my identity, but I am also proud of my African/Spanish heritage as well, without them I would not be the same human being I am today. It would be great if we can except the fact that no matter what group we identify with, we cannot negate nor should we want to. After all this is what makes us such beautiful people. Thank God I am Dominican!

Baracutay

Amen to that!

That is something I have always believed, every Dominican embraces all the cultural inputs that have gone into this melting pot that today we call the Dominican Republic. Whether such person is overwhelmingly white, black, mulatto, griffo, cuadroon, octaroon, zambo, whatever; if you are Dominican you will certainly be a product of some mixture.

And such mixture doesn't necessarily has to be in the blood, eventhough the vast majority of Dominicans have one or more mixture in their DNA.

It's a mixture that is found in all aspects of Dominican culture. Every Dominican speaks Spanish with Taino and African words imbedded here and there. The style of the language we speak is differentiated along socio-economic class, but everyone from the tutumpote to the lowest member of society expresses him/herself with a Spanish mixed with Taino and African words, a Spanish that is in many ways purely Dominican.

Our music is a blend of all three cultures. Regardless if some Dominicans don't like some of the genres, every Dominican likes at least one type of Dominican music (and there is more than simply Merengue and Bachata) and that affection to our music is an affection to the mixtures that have lead to such genre's creation.

Our art is a blend as well and all appreciation of such art is an appreciation of the mixture of cultures which created modern Dominican art.

Our architectural diversity, our habits, our everything; it's all a mixture of European, Taino, and African.

Perhaps that's why I become uneasy when I see or hear people (whether they are Dominican or foreigners) who insist on focusing on a particular aspect of our culture (whether it's Indigenous, African, or European) and denigrates everything else to near worthlessness.

I remember a few years ago right here on DR1 we were having a debate on Perico Ripiao and some members insisted that Perico Ripiao is African and nothing more. I don't understand how a music that incorporates the Taino g?ira, the European accordion, and other mixtures in dance and singing styles can be attributed as purely African. Merengue t?pico is a tri-cultural blend, a truely Dominican genre.

Our food is the same way.

It simply doesn't matter what is your genetic make up, if you are Dominican you are mixed in one way or another.

To put it another way, you cannot appreciate and enjoy and be a part of the Dominican experience without consciously or unconsciously enjoying the product of a tri-cultural melting pot.

When you enjoy anything Dominican, you are in fact enjoy Europe, Africa, and Amerindian America in a sancocho we call cultura criolla.

That's our reality and anyone who doesn't want to acknowledge that is plainly in denial.

-NALs

 

[Mirador]

A personal anecdote regarding our musical Taino / African heritage, drums....

Years ago I mentioned in a thread that I had played in a musical ensemble that went by the name ?Oba Soro?, which, according to it?s creator and director*, meant ?The King Speaks,? in the Yoruba language. At that time, I played an ?alcahuete?, a drum of African origin, which is tied around the waist, and played standing up with both hands. I never seemed to get the rhythm right, the particular rhythmic beat which the director called ?cong?. I seemed to be always playing off-key. The director coached me repeatedly, showing me how to 'cut' the rhythm at certain intervals, stopping and reversing my left hand ? right hand emphasis. It made total sense musically, but I could not seem to get it right physically. I thought the director had given up on me. Then one day the director told me we were playing a gig at a popular Zona Colonial watering hole. We got there early, and assistants meticulously applied body paint on our faces and torso. Then, at the director?s cue ,we all marched single-file toward the stage holding lit candles. It felt a bit mellowdramatic. Once on stage, and after a brief introduction, the director instructed me to start playing. Me! I almost panicked. All the musicians turned and stared at me, waiting, while I got over my surprise and fright. Up to that moment I felt I had bluffed my way into the ensemble, immitating and blending my drumming with that of the other musicians. So I started playing on the ?alcahuete?, playing as I remembered from the mountains of Sorte, Venezuela, on a traditional Amerindian hollowed-out tree trunk drum, a staccato drone, not unlike the sound of an old steam engine rolling over tracks, ?tacatataca, tacatataca, tacatataca?? Then, one by one, all the musicians started playing, weaving the sounds of their different percussion instruments into a most intricate sound. We played for two hours straight.


* Geo Ripley

 

[SuperConejo]

Baratucay broke it down very nicely. Our culture is has alot of roots, and it doesnt end there, we also have english speaking african cultures from the united states in samana, and from the smaller antillies in san pedro de macoris. we have lebanese in san francisco de macoris and other places. chinese, japanese, sephardic and ashekani jews. baratucay did you by the way see the zshare video i posted of palo being played in san juan de la maguana i believe. The kid playing the guira looks to have alot of taino, maybe as much as you. looks zambo to me of course this is superficial judging.

Now for El mero mero. those words i posted are NOT a blend of spanish and indegena. Do your research on linguistics, these are words that are still used in Kongo,Yoruba,Efek and other african nations. If you dont believe me go look up a map of Angola, or a map of congo, gambia, nigeria, and you'll see plenty of words dominicans and other people with a large contribution of african culture have. The reason why you hear it in other spanish speaking countrie is because other spanish speaking countries have afrodescendant populations as well. Also those words are used in spain because spain ALSO had slaves, Spain and Portugal had slaves decades if not centuries before 1492. No its not dificult to find pure africans in d.r. its quite easy. And no they didnt all come from haiti or the antillies, get your facts straight. Read the book called "Los Negros, Los Mulatos Y la nacion Dominicana" By franco pichardo, he is a great scholar. The dominican republic had plenty of imported slaves, a very large % came illegally through the illegal slave market in Curacao. El mero mero, ignoring the african contribution to dominican culture is like ignoring the big pink elephant in the room.
Not all light skin natives are mixed with spaniards. Natives are very diverse people, as diverse as any region in the world. Just look at the fossils they found in Brazil, Luzia and the people of Tierra del Fuego.

 

[Baracutay]

I agree with much of what Superconejo has said as well(by the way you must explain to me where you get such a cool name from).
Often times, and mostly on casual observation,people assume that (a) all Black people are dark skinned (b) all white people are light skinned (c) And Indians have a particular color.
From these kinds of observations we get many conflicting views as to what "color" a person is supposed to be. In an earlier post, I mentioned how on a trip to the deserts of Sonora, Mexico, I saw very dark, tall Indians. On the other hand in Southern Mexico the Indians were lighter skinned and shorter. I imagine that somewhere in the middle of the country there should be Indians that are a fusion of the two, some light, some dark, and some just plain ole brown.
These color variatons are found everywhere in the world. To look at a Dominican who is light brown and automatically assume he is Indian (color Indio,etc) in actaullity makes no sense.On the other hand when you look at say the boy on the link that Superconejo sent us with the young boy playing the guiro, you can surmise that he has very strong Indigenous features but is exceptionally dark, showing in effect that he is a very strong blend of two dark peoples, African and Indian. His features tell me that in the genetic draw, he was born with a large amount of Native autosomal markers.
In my experience at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, where I have worked for 12 years, I have met Indians from the tip of South America to Alaska and I can tell you Native Americans have a very wide range of colors. Question: If a dark skinned Indian marries a light skinned African and their children come out very dark, is this due to African genes or Native genes? For that matter if a white person from Eastern Europe with high cheekbones marries and American Indian with moderate cheekbones and all their children are born with high cheekbones....
What Im getting at is that on pure observation it is extremely hard to tell. Africans for example are the most diverse (genetically) groups of people in the world. This is exactly what has led scientist to conclude that they are the oldest races of man. So a mixture of someone from the congo with a Native from Sonora will produce children that will look distinct from a mix of Andean Indian and say Ethiopia.
As for Superconejos statements on how the Spanish aquired so many African words, I can only say you kind of missed the mark brother ( I say this is a joking way). The truth is, who conquered whom? We Indios and Negros have a way of adapting to things around us. We also have very beautiful women with incredible bodies. The Spanish never stood a chance! For a people who set forth to the "New World" to create a New Spain, they failed miserably. They married our women and our women taught the children our customs and words. 500years after contact, we in the Caribbean or most of Latin America for that matter, remain distinct from the Spanish. My personal take is that the Indian gives us an Indigenous Identity, that which says "YO SOY DE AQUI", always have been and always will. The African gives us perseverence and like the phoenix the power to remake ourselves. The Spanish gives us language (that we Kiskeyanized) but reminds us that we were once a conquered people and we must not allow that again. Of course we probably never be invaded militarily,but Western civilization is encroaching on us at a rapid pace(take a look at Puerto Rico, where my wife and I on a sinlge day counted more McDonalds and Pizza huts than PR restaurants) and we cannot afford that. We must always go back to our roots to remind oursleves where we came from in order have a clear picture as to where we want to go.
All the best
Baracuaty

 

[SuperConejo]

Baracutay,thanks for sharing more info on your experiences. Natives are more diverse then people think. Since they are a blend of Mongoloid, Australoid and everything in between. This is just a name i've got for a while, i like rabbits. Since you've worked with alot of natives and done lots of field research i wanted to ask you a question, because i have this theory which is really other peoples theory. They say that there might have been contact between Peruvian's and other west coast south american natives with Pacific islanders of Polynesian/Melanessian ancestry. They say this because of the fact that the sweet potato was introduced sometime ago into the pacific islands were it never existed before. I believe they are doing dna research on that. What is your take? Also by the way i was watching a documentary on Choco in colombia and noticed the Indegenous and African communities living side by side. One thing that really struck me was hte name of one of the Embera Indegenous towns! Boro Boro! That name is not so far from Bora Bora the polynesian pacific island. I was thinking this MIGHT be superficial evidence of linguistic interchange or just similar linguistic roots. Your so right about the diversity. I notice some natives look as if they just came out of Mongolia and have strong epicathic eyefolds like the Inuit people. And then you go to brazil to the Guarani natives and you see people that seem to have Australoid features as well. Like this girl http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/116095235_15d3d180c3_b.jpg
and this kid
Guaraní on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Guaraní on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[bob saunders]

Thor Heyerdahl tried to link the America's and both east and west sea travel together to explain simularities between cultures. Many years ago I remember a group trying to link west coast natives (Haida's and Bella Coola's) with Polynesians. I'm pretty sure no genetic work was done at that time. Certainly possible to me that we are so genetically mixed that appearance will only tell a small portion of the story.

 

[Baracutay]

I don't necessarily think that Natives are a blend of different peoples although that is certainly possible. I think that when a people are spread thorughout a large land mass such as North and South America there are localized mutations that take hold after a while. Remember that people dont and didnt in the old days marry according to blood type or mtDNA! Most often people marry due to the aesthetic appeal of their partner. So in a given place a Tall man will marry a tall woman, and bring forth many tall children.
Also Native people have 4 lineages that we know of and these are found in the mtDNA haplo GROUP A-B-C-D. Of these B-C-D are found in Asia although the Asian Haplo TYPES are vastly different from the Native Haplotype. Only the A haplo group seems to have arisen due to intermarriage no doubt here in the Americas. To date, although there have been bones found in certain areas of the Americas that tend to have physical features not usually associated with Indians, no Haplo groups nor types have been detected in either North or South America that suggest Australian or Polynesian admixture.
Also Natives tend for the most part (except for the Black foot Indians who have a high incidence of Blood type B) are mostly of Blood type O+ something like 100% in most Native groups. Although Blood type O is found in all Populations it never reaches more than 40 %.
I like your take on the Boro-Boro, but I think that like sounding names can be misleading at times. For example during a lecture I was speaking on Tabbaco and how this is a Taino word that means cigar and not the leaf which we called cohiba. The word Tabbaco comes from the Taino word "Tabacu" which means "tube" or hollow reed much like Behuco. Well someone of Arabic descent stood up and "corrected" me saying "the word tabbaco comes from the Arabic word Tabak"! I replied that there was no Tabbaco in the Middle east before 1492, and his reply was that it didnt mean the same, but the sound was similir and it had have come from his language!Ever notice how all babies use the words dada, mama no matter what culture they come from?
:glasses:
Another thing is the eye fold. I have met Indians who in a single family have a wide range of eye fold. IN one tribe, the Mayo, I found it interesting that teh women all had the fold but the men did not. This could be that perhaps if Natives do indeed have an Asian origin, and had we not been encountered when we were, then perhaps in time some would have lost the fold, just as many were getting lighter or darker........its possible.
Ever notice the difference between a Swedish person, a Greek, a Basque, a Hindu, and an Arabic person? Between these five groups there is a plethora of features and heights , etc but the one thing they all have in common is that genetically they are all white.

 

[Mirador]

There's a figure on a hillside at Paracas Bay, Per?. A 250 feet carving which according to most authors, including Thor Hyerdahl, represents a candelabra. However, Eric Von Daniken, in his book Chariot of the Gods, mentions it represents an alien spaceship, and that extraterrestial aliens established or influenced the Andean Preolombian cultures. However, the first time I saw the carving, it was obviously the stylized representation of an arcaic Polynesian trimaran (a three hulled catamaran) with rowers mounted on each hull. (See the pic below). In my rural compount, in the foothills north of Azua, I have a "calvario" (a spiral made of twin rows of stones, with a cross in the center), with a "melliza" cross (a blue wooden cross with two hands or claws stretching upwards from the horizontal beam. The astrological reference is obvious (the calvario is our galaxy, and the "melliza" cross represents the Scorpio Constellation). I have traced this cross to ancient Per?. I've only seen it in the DR Southwest. (I will post it later).
In honor of our Taino (and Polynesian ancestry), I named my youngest Aroa, in honor of the Polynesian Ta'Aroa, the ancestor of all gods.

 

[Chip00]

I don't necessarily think that Natives are a blend of different peoples although that is certainly possible. I think that when a people are spread thorughout a large land mass such as North and South America there are localized mutations that take hold after a while. Remember that people dont and didnt in the old days marry according to blood type or mtDNA! Most often people marry due to the aesthetic appeal of their partner. So in a given place a Tall man will marry a tall woman, and bring forth many tall children.
Also Native people have 4 lineages that we know of and these are found in the mtDNA haplo GROUP A-B-C-D. Of these B-C-D are found in Asia although the Asian Haplo TYPES are vastly different from the Native Haplotype. Only the A haplo group seems to have arisen due to intermarriage no doubt here in the Americas. To date, although there have been bones found in certain areas of the Americas that tend to have physical features not usually associated with Indians, no Haplo groups nor types have been detected in either North or South America that suggest Australian or Polynesian admixture.
Also Natives tend for the most part (except for the Black foot Indians who have a high incidence of Blood type B) are mostly of Blood type O+ something like 100% in most Native groups. Although Blood type O is found in all Populations it never reaches more than 40 %.
I like your take on the Boro-Boro, but I think that like sounding names can be misleading at times. For example during a lecture I was speaking on Tabbaco and how this is a Taino word that means cigar and not the leaf which we called cohiba. The word Tabbaco comes from the Taino word "Tabacu" which means "tube" or hollow reed much like Behuco. Well someone of Arabic descent stood up and "corrected" me saying "the word tabbaco comes from the Arabic word Tabak"! I replied that there was no Tabbaco in the Middle east before 1492, and his reply was that it didnt mean the same, but the sound was similir and it had have come from his language!Ever notice how all babies use the words dada, mama no matter what culture they come from?
:glasses:
Another thing is the eye fold. I have met Indians who in a single family have a wide range of eye fold. IN one tribe, the Mayo, I found it interesting that teh women all had the fold but the men did not. This could be that perhaps if Natives do indeed have an Asian origin, and had we not been encountered when we were, then perhaps in time some would have lost the fold, just as many were getting lighter or darker........its possible.
Ever notice the difference between a Swedish person, a Greek, a Basque, a Hindu, and an Arabic person? Between these five groups there is a plethora of features and heights , etc but the one thing they all have in common is that genetically they are all white.

Jorge

From what I had read about DNA tests that many of the American Indians markers identify with peoples from central Asia and therefore I thought the migration of these people from Asia to the Americas from 10k to 30k years ago was already generally accepted. If you are aware of a different theory I would very much like to learn about it.

 

[Baracutay]

Yikes! I may have been too quick in trying to make another point and did not sufficiently explain myself!
Yes the Genetic markers of Indians and Asians are indeed related. MT Dna establishes that the lineages diverged 20-30 thousand years ago. But the Haplo groups found in Asia B-C-D have their own unique STR's (short tandem repeats) making the Halpo type of Asians distinct from Native Americans, but this is due to genetic drift . This drift will occur in a group of people that splist in two and each goes their own separate way............you get the picture. A geneticist can distiguish say Haplo group C from Chinese individual from Haplo group C of a Wai-Wai Indian of Suriname.
There is an Obvious connection to Asians. People from Tibet look much like Navajo Indians today! And I have met Polynesians who swear I am one of them and to look at them with their brown skin and Asian features and very Bushy hair, I can see how related we are to them.
Im out for the rest of the day gentlemen, my wife and I and our kids are off to our first Pow-wow (Native Gathering) of the season.
Have a great day!

 

[Mirador]

I would not put too much stock on these genetic studies. I doubt they could even stand a day in court, much less in front of a jury of laymen, as most of us are. Even a forensic anthropologist would put so many holes into these theories to make them look like 'guiras'. Currently, there's much disagreement within the academic scientific community, concerning the usefulness of these studies. See, for example, the following article from ?The American Journal of Human Genetics?,

The American Journal of Human Genetics

Concerning the source for Taino DNA, I for one have never seen a precolombian Taino cemetary or burial site, taking into account that the Precolombian population of the island has been estimated at over 1 million. I even doubt the Taino?s burried their dead, which is not an outlandish idea, considering the funeral practices of Precolombian Northamerican Amerindians, or even present day Venezuelan Amerindians (e.g., Yanomami), who after burning the body, feast on a plantain porridge made with the ashes of the deceased.