The 1%

[Forbeca]

We've all heard Robert and AZb talk about the class of Dominican the majority of the board never gets to see. (Correct me if I'm wrong--I'm sure you will.)


Talk to me about Dominicans of "high class" or "education" or whatever you care to call it. "Good spanish" might be a starting point. Give me a concrete example...

MG - I'm not exactly sure what it is you want to hear, but first of all, the upper-class dominican is all over the DR. You see them at clubs, theater, malls, restaurants, etc. The only establishments they w/not be caught dead in are the public service offices, their employees do all that needs to be done for them, and needless to say public beaches, etc. I believe TonyC already explained that. These people are not hermits, they go out and enjoy life just like everyone else. It's just that for the most part, they do not look dominican, they pass for Europeans, and they are quite happy with that.
Now, to give you a concrete example is difficult, most upper-middle class dominicans are snobbish. They are overly protected of the females in the family, and at the same time think of us as a burden. The pressure is mostly on the females, the males can do whatever they want, (there is some pressure on them too i.e., the partners they choose, but for the most part, they are left alone). We need to marry well (and mind you, there are not a lot of young males to choose from, so most of the time you have to settle for someone who may not be attractive/young or you don't love just to appease your parents, this is why so many young girls do what they have to do on the side for some fun). They are a very complicated bunch. Not worth much speculating and they are predictable. Been following the same rules for ever.

 

[MaineGirl]

Well, I ask the question for a few reasons.

First of all, I am teach Spanish as a foreign language in Maine.

I gave a quiz last week, a geography quiz. 80% bombed! We had been going over what countries spoke Spanish for three weeks, I gave them maps, we talked about notable people/contributions to our society, etc. Still, kids do NOT know where the DR is, or Bolivia, or Cuba, or Peru. A few kids could not even tell me where Mexico is.

This bothered the heck out of me. So we began discussing how everyone knows where the US is (even though a lot of foreigners couldn't place Maine as a state--we're like a developing nation here downeast.)

Most of my students perceive Hispanics as migrant workers who come here in crowded trucks and vans, taking teenager's jobs. (Potato pickers, apple workers, blueberry rakers, and wreath makers).

I am trying to discuss with them the fact that there DOES exist an upper-class in Spanish-speaking countries. I guess I didn't want to venture into the discussion without some information. I lived in Venezuela with two host families. The first one was "elite" and they hated me, they had the rules going on and here I was a farm girl from Maine (aforementioned developing country-status). The second family was upper middle class and they accepted me warmly. So I had some knowledge myself but wanted to hear from the board.

All the info. has been great, and I thank everyone for participating.

 

[mobrouser]

Re: Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytime

Originally posted by pasha ... middle-to-upper class people and not the poor, ill educated, desperate kind you mention .] And they won't just be lining up for American visas, but German, French, Spanish, Canadian, etc. Now, why do you reckon that would be?

and how many of those well educated emigrants get to use their education when they arrive in the "promised land"? how many foreign trained doctors and engineers get to drive cab in Toronto or NYC, or work as maids for 60+ hours a week in their attempt to reach "The Dream"? this is where many believe that the dream is a sham.

mob

 

[DamnYankee]

Evan maids are getten paid!

Don't knock the maids. My Brazillian cleaning lady averages $85 per house and cleans three houses per day, one of the hardest workers I've ever met. She's living her version of the American dream and sending "Home" $2500 a month.

 

[MaineGirl]

When I taught Spanish at a private school in Northern Virginia, one of my students's moms was from El Salvador. She had paid her way to get smuggled across the border to enter the states illegally, then worked hard to get papers to stay. She enrolled in English classes and cleaned houses. Now she owns her own company of maids--and she still cleans houses because she believes in working hard. This was her American dream--she has two smart kids in a good private school, she owns a home, has her cars and her own business.

 

[pasha]

Re: Re: Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytime

and how many of those well educated emigrants get to use their education when they arrive in the "promised land"? how many foreign trained doctors and engineers get to drive cab in Toronto or NYC, or work as maids for 60+ hours a week in their attempt to reach "The Dream"? this is where many believe that the dream is a sham. mob

Well, not to question your word.... but I don't think many doctors and engineers, whose professional qualifications are in good order, are going to scrub toilets or drive cabs anywhere. You do know that it costs about a quarter million dollars, or so I've been told, to get a hack's license in New York. But, that's just a small detail.

And, for those poor souls who "believe the dream is a sham" do you reckon that US authorities are keeping them in bondage so that there's a supply of janitors and cabbies in NY or Toronto? Or, on the other hand, do you suppose that if those disillusioned dream seekers went down to the airline counter they could get a ticket to back home to the DR dream, whatever "it" is? Surely the DR could use a few qualified medical experts and engineers.

So, MOB, what's the factual basis for your dismal conclusion about the US dream?

Be happy and enjoy "it", P

For MaineGirl: It's a sad reality that the US school system doesn't produce good "all rounders" who have a grip on subjects like geography. [Good on you for teaching your kids that's there's something over the far horizon.] Even sadder is that countries like the DR don't even show up on our information radar; e.g., not one jot, tittle or mention in the US media [except maybe in Miami] about the recent earthquake. The only thing I've seen about the DR in the Washington Post since I came home last month was something in the Sports section about a baseball player. And, frankly, who gives a big sxxx about that? I asked a few sports nuts in the neighborhood about Brother Sosa [?]...and they thought he was from Cuba.

 

[goatfarmnga]

American dreams...

Many immigrants who were doctors etc in their countries are in fact taxi drivers in the US..They can not get accredited without more schooling etc..they do whatever work they can find. I know many Mid Eastern people who were waiters for my restaurant who were civil engineers, mechanical engineers etc..worked as a waiters..Just seemed happy to be in the US to me!
My Iranian Ex used to say..If I can come to the USA as a Political Refugee..(Worked for Agriculture Dept in IRan..escaped when sent to France for work)..He came to the USA by way of France and a Catholic Social services group loaned him $500. He abandoned his furniture import business he owned in Iran, his home and his wealth in Iran..He came to US worked very hard at different restaurants as cooks, dishwashers etc to learn the trade..(his degree is Agriculture/Business) and in 4 years owned a restaurant in a mall. He lived at work practically 15-18 hours a day. Saved all his money and is now 15 years later very successful with a 5 Star Restaurant, nice home, new truck etc.. He always wondered why people from the US are working for others making minimum wage? They speak english, have no immigration problems, family and friends in the country and they can not be successful? He said America spoiled its people years ago and now they mostly work for foreigners...Seems true to me sad to say..
America is a dream to many many people. I have seen it from several countries where I have lived...People all want the chance to come to the US to own a home, have a business etc..I am glad many do as I would never have had the chance to experience so many great types of cuisine! To include a Dominican spot I love in Orlando "Lechonera" the owner used to play pool with my husband as a teenager in the DR..That Dominican man is so proud f his restaurant you would not believe. Brags to us about his home, car etc..He seems to have found his American dream for his family... Pam

As for the ignorance of the kids Maine girl teaches learning about Spanish speaking countries....MANY an adult in Georgia has no idea that Dominican Republic exists..WHen I am asked where I am moving they are all dumbfounded..never heard of it..Thought my Husband is Mexican (all spanish speakers to them are "Mexican")..So Americans in general are probably geography challenged...My 15 yr old son goes to school in FL and is amazed they have no geography class for 9th graders..that is his favorite class..

 

[JoeTurist]

A good source will be: "Ritmo Social" http://www.listindiario.com.do/revistas/ritmo_social/ritmo.html

 

[Forbeca]

Well, I ask the question for a few reasons.
Most of my students perceive Hispanics as migrant workers who come here in crowded trucks and vans, taking teenager's jobs. (Potato pickers, apple workers, blueberry rakers, and wreath makers).

I am trying to discuss with them the fact that there DOES exist an upper-class in Spanish-speaking countries. I guess I didn't want to venture into the discussion without some information. I lived in Venezuela with two host families. The first one was "elite" and they hated me, they had the rules going on and here I was a farm girl from Maine (aforementioned developing country-status). The second family was upper middle class and they accepted me warmly. So I had some knowledge myself but wanted to hear from the board.






This is so true. I have a friend who teaches middle school in Charlotte, N.C. She was astonished when a student asked her if they had cars in the DR! Since that day she is on a mission to educate them. She has a Dominican Day every year (cooks arroz con pollo, platanos, etc.) Plays merengue for them (has a few of her friends come to the school to teach the kids how to dance it), at the end of the festivities there is usually a dominican speaker addressing any questions the kids may have.

 

[pasha]

Since that day she is on a mission to educate them. She has a Dominican Day every year (cooks arroz con pollo, platanos, etc.) Plays merengue for them (has a few of her friends come to the school to teach the kids how to dance it), at the end of the festivities there is usually a dominican speaker addressing any questions the kids may have.

Christ, that's absolutely terrific. Wish all teachers did things like that.....might help kids not only appreciate things of a Dominicanish nature, but Islamic, oriental, black, tribal, etc.

Very best, P

 

[mobrouser]

Re: Re: Re: Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytim

Well, not to question your word.... but I don't think many doctors and engineers, whose professional qualifications are in good order, are going to scrub toilets or drive cabs anywhere. You do know that it costs about a quarter million dollars, or so I've been told, to get a hack's license in New York. But, that's just a small detail.

if you understood the ins and outs of the taxi business you would know that the owners of a taxi licence in Toronto or NYC are rarely the ones driving the cab. the drivers "rent" the cab for the day from the owners and it is quite common to find that after driving all day they have a net income below that of minimum wage.

if you understood the ins and outs of obtaining landed immigrant status, you would know it is on a point system. a doctor or engineer earns more points than a maid because of their education. the doctor or engineer gains entry based on a foreign degree, yet finds that employment in their chosen profession cannot be obtained unless they have a North American degree or work experience. this too is common knowledge. as is the fact that there are many well- educated immigrants driving taxis and working as maids.

this is when many conclude that the dream is a sham. they were granted papers based on an education/profession yet they are unable to use it.

mob

 

[MaineGirl]

I did a Heritage Speaker Series in Virginia at my old school. Living close to DC, there were a lot of people I could ask to come in and speak to the kids. We had several speakers. They brought pictures, music and food to share.

The lady from El Salvador who bought her way across the border and now owns her company said one thing to me:

"The people with money don't leave. They live a good lifestyle in their own countries and enjoy a high standard of living. Why would they want to come here and struggle [in the US] when they can live like kings and queens. I came [to the US] because I had no money and no opportunity [in El Salvador]."

I thought that was an interesting thing to say.

 

[pasha]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream an

if you understood the ins and outs of the taxi business you would know....the drivers "rent" the cab for the day from the owners....if you understood the ins and outs of obtaining landed immigrant status the doctor or engineer gains entry based on a foreign degree, yet finds that employment in their chosen profession cannot be obtained unless they have a North American degree or work experience. mob

Well, looks like I don't know the in's and out's...... Of either taxi driving or doctors with foreign degrees. I had always assumed that the City of New York would slam dunk a hack license holder who "rented" out the vehicle....and that's why cabs I've taken in the Big Apple, the picture on the license that's required by law to be displayed inside, bore more than a passing resemblance to the driver. Or, are you referring to that sleazy crowd of drivers hanging around outside the terminal exits?

As for foreigners who arrive with professional degrees not able to find a job, is it possible, just possible, that in many if not most cases their degrees or facsimiles thereof, aren't really worth the paper they're written on? You would let some brain surgeon from Kabul University drill into your head; unless he had some serious training, qualifications, certificates and experience gained in the West? Get REAL. At least talk about the pseudo scientists; e.g., Political Scientists or Economists for crying out loud.

True story: my household goods container that arrived in Riyadh a few years back [The Kingdom not exactly being 3d world in most respects] was opened in the dry port and robbed. Guess what was taken. The CD collection? The books? The bed linens? The porno collection [only kidding - though they did take a black felt tip to a photograph of the peepee of the statue of David [Milano] ].

No, dear MOB. Only my framed university diplomas were gone. Why would that be, I asked the customs inspector who was "investigating" the matter? Answer: just the paper of a legitimate degree is worth a LOT of money. Eventually, the thief was nabbed. Nationality: Indian. And, as it turned out he already had "real degree" from some Sub Continental paper mill, which he had palmed off on his CV upon entry to Saudi Arabia. And, be well assured that that unto inself was quite a feat since the Saudis look at everything like that through a microscope.... unlike US Immigration. My diplomas had already been sold and disappeared into the expatriate work force. I hope the Indian SOB is still languishing in the Riyadh lockup...and that's quite likely.

Best, P

PS - want to know what piece of paper is worth even more these days? Fake HIV test results performed by "legitimate" laboratories in the countries of origin. If you're from Nepal, for instance, you can be in the final stages and still get the paper for a few bucks. Slick huh? Would you have sex with someone that had those "real" results? Hmmmm.....better run down for a blood test.

 

[carlos]

The Dream is real whether some of you want to accept it or not.

Let me give you an example.

One doctor I know busted her ass once she got here from DR and is now a licensed pediatrician. Another one, is here teaching part time at a college but not a doctor in the states because he cannot pass the tests.

It is all up to the individual. Now, are they both living the dream? I think they are.

A person comes from DR to the US and cannot speak a work of English. He finds a union job. Works hard for 20 years, retires and receives a pension. Has a car, a home and can afford to have his fridge full of food all the time.

This person may think he is not living the dream, but he is. I mean, what other country would give him the opportunity?

Some of you need to think it over again. A maid, a cab driver or even a dog walker can make in a day what some of you in DR make in a month.

For those that live in the states, if the dream is so bad, then go back to DR, plain and simple.

Try living the dream over there and see how easy it is.


As far as homeless people; most of them are junkies. If you find one that is not, then why don't they take advantage of the city and study outreach centers which provide them with food and shelter.

I spoke to a homeless man once and he complained how the shelters are too crowded and blah blah. I was thinking to myself that maybe this guy wanted acommodations at the Plaza or Waldorf Astoria.

I offered to buy him a meal and he said no. He said to give him the money to buy some beer. At least he was honest!!!


NO matter what job you have in the US, there is always potential to move up and make money that is better in comparison to other countries.

If you come from DR, and you struggle, you can eventually live a decent life. Don't curse the country out because you don't live like Trump. At least be greatful.

Why are American's despised? That is the price you pay when the whole world revolves around your system. If some of you hate America so much, then stay the f**k out of it.

oh by the way, take off your clothes, which i gurantee was sold to you by America in one way or another. go to ur local DR tailor and tell him to set you up.

Don't be hypocrites and criticize the very system that has helped so many of you out.

 

[samiam]

The system that what?

There are many countries of europe that offer so called opportunities and pensions to immigrants, the US is not alone in supporting the worlds "unfortunate masses". And if you aske me, its a cheap tax handed out for being "world's only superpower" and top consumer of natural resources. Share the love man!!

The "US system", or anyother, doesn't help anybody. Not even people like you. Stop slacking. If all you got is a pension and a fridge full of food, then thats what you deserve, not because of the system but because that is what the circumstances and your abilities gave you. I hate people that blame "the system." Get off your ass and work! An idea, a Job an Opportunity arises every single day and this is not idealistic crap!!

I think americans are not despised, stupid people are despised. Dont matter where you come from. Sorry if you feel that way.

I've lived here for the past 5 years, in the states i lived for almost 8 and 1 in europe where I visit every year to see family and friends. To tell you the truth, I dunno what is so great about the US! I mean, its a beautiful country, I've met very, very good friends and they are first rate in many things I'm not getting into right now, but common!! There is beauty and advantages in every continent and almost every nation you go to.

For instance, here I live with the same commodities, as I did in the US, I have a little piece of beach in Samana, I travel to se my friends in the US and europe and everytime they come to the island they are sad to leave. What would moving to the US represent to me? At the moment not enough to make me go back, but that may not be the case of the guy that washes my car.

The world is a big place, dont be stupid and get out of your bubble. I mean, the third world has its little perks like not having to pay for Direct TV. In europe...well if you havent been there go and see what I mean, if you have been there and dont know what I mean, dont feel despised.

BTW, the local DR taylor is the guy that make most of your american clothes.

 

[carlos]

Re: The system that what?

There are many countries of europe that offer so called opportunities and pensions to immigrants, the US is not alone in supporting the worlds "unfortunate masses". And if you aske me, its a cheap tax handed out for being "world's only superpower" and top consumer of natural resources. Share the love man!!

your point is? the US was brought up and I made a comparison.

[/QUOTE]
The "US system", or anyother, doesn't help anybody. Not even people like you. Stop slacking. If all you got is a pension and a fridge full of food, then thats what you deserve, not because of the system but because that is what the circumstances and your abilities gave you. I hate people that blame "the system." Get off your ass and work! An idea, a Job an Opportunity arises every single day and this is not idealistic crap!! I think americans are not despised, stupid people are despised. Dont matter where you come from. Sorry if you feel that way.[/B][/QUOTE]


The US system in fact does help. I am sure you have benefited from it. " People" like me? I can say I have benefited from it in more than one way. A pension and a fridge? I suggest you go back and read what I wrote. Who said I feel American are despised? again go read back and see what I was responding to.

[/QUOTE]
I've lived here for the past 5 years, in the states i lived for almost 8 and 1 in europe where I visit every year to see family and friends. To tell you the truth, I dunno what is so great about the US! I mean, its a beautiful country, I've met very, very good friends and they are first rate in many things I'm not getting into right now, but common!! [/B][/QUOTE]

why did you live here for 8 years if there is nothing great about it?



[/QUOTE] There is beauty and advantages in every continent and almost every nation you go to.[/B][/QUOTE]

finally, something that makes sense!


[/QUOTE] For instance, here I live with the same commodities, as I did in the US, I have a little piece of beach in Samana, I travel to se my friends in the US and europe and everytime they come to the island they are sad to leave. What would moving to the US represent to me? At the moment not enough to make me go back, but that may not be the case of the guy that washes my car. [/B][/QUOTE]

you said it, to you!! I am sure that the guy that washes my car is happier here then over there. you have a nice piece of beach an I am glad for you. maybe if you are not bitter at me, I will take a swim in it one day.

or maybe I will just buy you out of the area.

[/QUOTE] The world is a big place, dont be stupid and get out of your bubble. I mean, the third world has its little perks like not having to pay for Direct TV. In europe...well if you havent been there go and see what I mean, if you have been there and dont know what I mean, dont feel despised. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't pay for DirectTV either and been to Europe many times


[/QUOTE]
BTW, the local DR taylor is the guy that make most of your
american clothes. [/B][/QUOTE]

I would not classify all those people that my family has working in the zona franca as tailors. far from it.

again, go back and read what I wrote.

 

[pasha]

Re: The system that what?

There are many countries of europe that offer so called opportunities and pensions to immigrants, the US is not alone in supporting the worlds "unfortunate masses". ...The "US system", or anyother, doesn't help anybody.....I've met very, very good friends and they are first rate in many things I'm not getting into right now, but common!!....everytime they come to the island they are sad to leave.

So much hysteria...... , so little time to address. First, don't think anyone said that the US alone helps "unfortunate masses." But, the open portal for entry to Europe has basically slammed shut in the past two years.....somebody woke up and realized that most of those immigrants were low life economic opportunists and quite often criminals who washed ashore somewhere and claimed political oppression back home. Bleeding hearts pretty soon run out of blood to pump so to speak. And, where did virtually all of those who jumped the wire at the notorious Red Cross resettlement camp close by the Chunnel entrance make the run for: France, Germany, Belgium?

Naw, it was England....which at that time gave financial and other support to a degree not even citizens could aspire to. Once you made it to the UK, you were on a lifelong gravy train. [Did you ever hear the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain"? Unless you saw the film 'Oh Brother Where Art Thou?' probably not. It was well before your time and otherwise wouldn't be interesting since it has only a slightly Latin beat.]

In the US what warms many a cockle is the way extended families enter the country; and, set speed records for getting in the driver's license lines and on welfare and medical assistance rolls. Gazelles pursued by a leopard can't move that fast. Try hard, Cmedina, to see it through the eyes of the average tax payer. Some of those fools get downright discouraged and even angry about it......and by the way, how do you feel about Haitians who creep over the border into the DR? WHOA, is that one of them washing your car? Anyhow, someone must strenuously object to them since a dozen or more were recently executed by a death squad or whoever.

I may be reading it wrong given the slight imperfections in the English you learned in school and 8 years in the US, but are you calling your American friends "common?" Be careful. If they read that they might take you for a hypocrite and you might not have any of them left. Second thought: if they are so sad to leave the island, why do you suppose they leave?

Folks, maybe the mind's playing tricks, but in some of these posts there's distinctly a defensive "little man" or inferiority complex; just as, it must be said, the odour of moral superiority wafting about others. Could it be that there's not really "peace in the DR valley?" Heavens forbid, and

Best, P

 

[pasha]

My most profound apologies to Cmedina for my last post

It should've been addressed to samiam [sic?[. I just can't get these damn who-said-whats straight. So very sorry.

 

[samiam]

My point

You Said....This person may think he is not living the dream, but he is. I mean, what other country would give him the opportunity?

And I said........There are many countries of europe that offer so called opportunities and pensions to immigrants...

and you said........For those that live in the states, if the dream is so bad, then go back to DR, plain and simple

And I said.............If all you got is a pension and a fridge full of food, then thats what you deserve, not because of the system but because that is what the circumstances and your abilities gave you.....

And you said................ Why are American's despised? That is the price you pay when the whole world revolves around your system. If some of you hate America so much, then stay the f**k out of it........

And I said........... I think americans are not despised, stupid people are despised.


BTW, I benefited from the educational system the US offers and I worked in the US for a while after graduating from college. I still like it there, I go anytime I want, specially to visit friends.

I think its a great country in some ways, just like I think the DR is great in many other ways.I go to the US for the same reason Americans go to Europe, Asia, Australia or anywhere else..because I can and/or want!

Anyhoo, The point was that you have to be a little more humble. I meant no offense to the US.
My apologies if I said something that offended you. I never said he US was a bad place or a better to live in than anywhere else. Ta ta!

 

[samiam]

Re: Re: The system that what?

Dear Mr. Pasha:

Did you ever hear the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain"? Yes, Great song.

Have you ever heard the song Common People by Pulp?

'Oh Brother Where Art Thou?' Great film


'I may be reading it wrong given the slight imperfections in the English you learned in school and 8 years in the US...'

How observative of you to point that out. Sorry if it bothers you. I was never that good in grammar(jijiji)

But thanks for the very clever comments anyhow.


Best,
S