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The battle for haiti
I'm not Haitian and I understand this perfectly and I agree. These "Poverty Pimps" are all over the island on both sides of the border.
People have come up with a lot of reasons why Haiti is as it is but if it's leaders didn't do just about everything they could to dissuade foreign investment it wouldn't be the way it is now. After all it has two abundant natural resources, cheap labor and pristine beaches.
Bob.. for the record.. I never said that I thought that communism works..
What I said is that I had some concurrence with the bullet points
of
Down with Western Imperialism
Down with the world bank and the imf
and that religion is the opiate of the masses...
now if you care to start reading on foreign aid.. you might start with the books of Joseph Steigliz (nobel winning economist) and William Easterly. who BOTH worked for the World Bank .. and who BOTH have serious reservations about the workings of both these institutions.
As for Western Imperialism.. well... if you are FOR that... then we really have nothing to discuss
as for religion
being the opiate of the masses
that we are not allowed to discuss here
But I do think that you should examine your own willingness to dubb anyone "mentally ill" for their political beliefs..
Certainly, like calcium carbonate and aggregates. I had a person in the mining business tell me that he investigated doing business in Haiti until he learned they wanted half of the net profit. Not only that I thihnk it's fairly evident from some posters like getthenets that there is atmosphere and suspicion of foreigners. Furthermore, the government with their overblown tradition of grafting no doubt has run away thousands of Haitian entrepreneurs who would rather just not give up the lion's share of profit to some fat cat corrupt official.
Things would be completely different if they would do at the very least that the DR does with respect to fostering business growth.
Yes indeed.
If you will excuse the attempt at an ironic metaphor -
They should let the tree mature before they pick the fruit.
Better for everyone in the long run - especially the tree.
But I know of precious metal mining companies that are investing a lot of money (in Haitian terms) and doing so under international best practice terms and agreements.
And as I said before Digicel made it work.
Trying to find my ramble from the other day.... will edit and post.. see what you think.
It is a bit lefty though.
If you will excuse the attempt at an ironic metaphor -
They should let the tree mature before they pick the fruit.
Better for everyone in the long run - especially the tree.
But I know of precious metal mining companies that are investing a lot of money (in Haitian terms) and doing so under international best practice terms and agreements.
And as I said before Digicel made it work.
Trying to find my ramble from the other day.... will edit and post.. see what you think.
It is a bit lefty though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by getthesenets
But it's also rife with people who otherwise couldn't cut it in their OWN society, racists who reinforce feelings of superiority by being around needy people of color, and other dregs.
quote
It is so sad too that so many Haitians think like this. All I can say is that the propaganda machine in Haiti has and apparently continues to work very well.
Chip
quote
I would suggest, Chip, that this is not the "Hatian propoganda machine" (as if there were such a thing.. as if there were some sort of organized state, as if as if)
but rather the actual experience of Haitians on the ground
I know it exists
I have seen it
and if you have NOT seen it.....Either you have not been around enough or perhaps you are deep in the middle of them..
I watched weathy white Episcopalians come down here (with gold crosses in their ears) to paint the Parish hall... and make the locals prepare their food and serve them.. because they were here "to help" (just stay home and send the money)
I have watched Dominicans with NGOs travel to the campo and set up at the best hotel and entertain the big shots in town on their NGO>> USAID dollars
I have seen a couple in Haiti, staying at the Montana at $200 a night, parading around with religious garb and their little blind Haitian child,
If you have not seen the sort of thing that makes you sick your stomach...
then just OPEN YOUR EYES
Originally Posted by getthesenets
But it's also rife with people who otherwise couldn't cut it in their OWN society, racists who reinforce feelings of superiority by being around needy people of color, and other dregs.
quote
It is so sad too that so many Haitians think like this. All I can say is that the propaganda machine in Haiti has and apparently continues to work very well.
Chip
quote
I would suggest, Chip, that this is not the "Hatian propoganda machine" (as if there were such a thing.. as if there were some sort of organized state, as if as if)
but rather the actual experience of Haitians on the ground
I know it exists
I have seen it
and if you have NOT seen it.....Either you have not been around enough or perhaps you are deep in the middle of them..
I watched weathy white Episcopalians come down here (with gold crosses in their ears) to paint the Parish hall... and make the locals prepare their food and serve them.. because they were here "to help" (just stay home and send the money)
I have watched Dominicans with NGOs travel to the campo and set up at the best hotel and entertain the big shots in town on their NGO>> USAID dollars
I have seen a couple in Haiti, staying at the Montana at $200 a night, parading around with religious garb and their little blind Haitian child,
If you have not seen the sort of thing that makes you sick your stomach...
then just OPEN YOUR EYES
This is an edited version of what I wrote to a friend partly inspired by a discussion on DR1 and partly by our discussion of the 21st century version of imperialism.
And for Haiti this is what it comes down to - in an oversimplified view.
First read Berzin's comment in the Off Topic Thread here.
<O
http://www.dr1.com/forums/general-stuff/104786-off-topic-thread-130.html
<O</O
<O</O
He is rightly dismissive of Friedman, shock doctrine economics.<O</O
So am I but for Haiti I am not so concerned about this.<O</O
Even as a culturally lefty hippy I still think myself a solid if recent convert to primitive capitalism. <O</O
At the moment, thankfully, I do not think Haiti qualifies for a financial raping.<O</O
It did at one time in its past, of course, but that was back when we had the old fashioned approach to empires.<O</O
<O
I see it like this -<O</O
Investing cash to do work and make more cash is my kind of capitalism.<O</O
Friedman's is economic imperialism.<O</O
The great Emperors no longer administer groups of nations they run corporations. More realistically the combined needs of the cabal that is international finance, oil and other minerals - these interests administer nations.<O</O
<O</O
But hopefully this is what will save Haiti in the medium term.<O</O
<O</O
Haiti is bereft of anything that these ?Shock Capitalists? usually like to assume control of (school system, electricity company, water supply, phone network) preferably for a massively discounted financial responsibility and an avidly enforced and encouraging fiscal and legal environment, of course.<O</O
This makes Haiti an unlikely candidate for a full economic invasion as there are few existing state assets to administer for their profit.<O</O
They would have to spend billions before they could make a buck back. So no dice.<O</O
<O</O
But every silver lining has a cloud.
<O</O
<O</O
Haiti's general ?buggerall-ness? makes it the perfect place for the aid industry to set up shop and absorb its own nonsense.<O</O
By its very nature the aid industry lives in the cracks into which corporations don't see fit to reach; In this way the two coexist.<O</O
And for any substantial global economic entity such as the great aid rip-off , a sustainable symbiosis with the current global Emperors is regarded as a definite win.
<O</O
<O</O
Which is more destructive? You would have to judge for yourself.<O</O
Do you want very slowly to bleed to death at the hands of aid or be chewed up by the real world?<O</O
For me it would be the latter. Either way it would still be painful.<O</O
<O
And for all those folks who point to the NGO superstars, I say this.<O</O
Some few are going to achieve their stated aims just as surely as entrepreneurs occasionally get some wood on the ball.<O</O
So why, they may ask, is there currently more aid than capitalism in Haiti? After all, you consistently find what fits best the economic landscape wherever you look.<O</O
Is that not the very definition of a free and efficient market?<O</O
The difference is that when For-Profit organizations fail they disappear.<O</O
Not so with the Non-Profits; They hang around exactly as long as they fail to achieve their stated aims.<O</O
<O
And believe me, the folks who administer the aid corporations are just as protective of their lot as the money guys.<O</O
<O
The biggest difference between my primitive capitalist exploitation of Haiti and corporate exploitation of Haiti is this.<O</O
The primitive capitalists are in competition with each other. This allegedly culls the heard and forces checks and balances, evolving strong business. (In an ideal world)<O</O
The corporate Emperors have no competition so they do exactly what they feel they need to. Their operating environment does nothing to keep them honest.
<O</O
<O</O
So screw the massive aid rip-off.<O</O
And screw a surrender to the IMF, World bank and various well lobbied conglomerate management, security, equipment and construction companies.
<O</O
<O
How about a bit more Denis (Digicel) & NATCOM?<O</O
And for Haiti this is what it comes down to - in an oversimplified view.
First read Berzin's comment in the Off Topic Thread here.
<O
http://www.dr1.com/forums/general-stuff/104786-off-topic-thread-130.html
<O
</O<O
</OHe is rightly dismissive of Friedman, shock doctrine economics.<O
</OSo am I but for Haiti I am not so concerned about this.<O
</OEven as a culturally lefty hippy I still think myself a solid if recent convert to primitive capitalism. <O
</OAt the moment, thankfully, I do not think Haiti qualifies for a financial raping.<O
</OIt did at one time in its past, of course, but that was back when we had the old fashioned approach to empires.<O
</O<O
I see it like this -<O
</OInvesting cash to do work and make more cash is my kind of capitalism.<O
</OFriedman's is economic imperialism.<O
</OThe great Emperors no longer administer groups of nations they run corporations. More realistically the combined needs of the cabal that is international finance, oil and other minerals - these interests administer nations.<O
</O<O
</OBut hopefully this is what will save Haiti in the medium term.<O
</O<O
</OHaiti is bereft of anything that these ?Shock Capitalists? usually like to assume control of (school system, electricity company, water supply, phone network) preferably for a massively discounted financial responsibility and an avidly enforced and encouraging fiscal and legal environment, of course.<O
</OThis makes Haiti an unlikely candidate for a full economic invasion as there are few existing state assets to administer for their profit.<O
</OThey would have to spend billions before they could make a buck back. So no dice.<O
</O<O
</OBut every silver lining has a cloud.
<O
</O<O
</OHaiti's general ?buggerall-ness? makes it the perfect place for the aid industry to set up shop and absorb its own nonsense.<O
</OBy its very nature the aid industry lives in the cracks into which corporations don't see fit to reach; In this way the two coexist.<O
</OAnd for any substantial global economic entity such as the great aid rip-off , a sustainable symbiosis with the current global Emperors is regarded as a definite win.
<O
</O<O
</OWhich is more destructive? You would have to judge for yourself.<O
</ODo you want very slowly to bleed to death at the hands of aid or be chewed up by the real world?<O
</OFor me it would be the latter. Either way it would still be painful.<O
</O<O
And for all those folks who point to the NGO superstars, I say this.<O
</OSome few are going to achieve their stated aims just as surely as entrepreneurs occasionally get some wood on the ball.<O
</OSo why, they may ask, is there currently more aid than capitalism in Haiti? After all, you consistently find what fits best the economic landscape wherever you look.<O
</OIs that not the very definition of a free and efficient market?<O
</OThe difference is that when For-Profit organizations fail they disappear.<O
</ONot so with the Non-Profits; They hang around exactly as long as they fail to achieve their stated aims.<O
</O<O
And believe me, the folks who administer the aid corporations are just as protective of their lot as the money guys.<O
</O<O
The biggest difference between my primitive capitalist exploitation of Haiti and corporate exploitation of Haiti is this.<O
</OThe primitive capitalists are in competition with each other. This allegedly culls the heard and forces checks and balances, evolving strong business. (In an ideal world)<O
</OThe corporate Emperors have no competition so they do exactly what they feel they need to. Their operating environment does nothing to keep them honest.
<O
</O<O
</OSo screw the massive aid rip-off.<O
</OAnd screw a surrender to the IMF, World bank and various well lobbied conglomerate management, security, equipment and construction companies.
<O
</O<O
How about a bit more Denis (Digicel) & NATCOM?<O
</OI was in Haiti after the earthquake and the group of medical professionals were anything but condescending to say the least. Some weren't even religious although most were.
As far as the "propaganda machine" this was told to me by a young Haitian nurse who had relocated to the States after high school. She said she didn't realize how much bs and lies it was. She told me this is the real reason why her country can't get ahead.
Furthermore, this more or less agrees with Haiti's political stance since their very inception. They have done everything to discourage foreign involvement from the very beginning and even destroying infrastructure built by Americans after the occupied the country in the early 20th century. Their are other examples of Haitians doing same such as destroying an orphange in Juana Mendez after the riots in 2004 or so.
Well , there numerous opinions on what is most evil in the world. For a different perspective: Capitalism Magazine - World PovertyThis is an edited version of what I wrote to a friend partly inspired by a discussion on DR1 and partly by our discussion of the 21st century version of imperialism.
And for Haiti this is what it comes down to - in an oversimplified view.
First read Berzin's comment in the Off Topic Thread here.
<O
http://www.dr1.com/forums/general-stuff/104786-off-topic-thread-130.html
<O
<O
He is rightly dismissive of Friedman, shock doctrine economics.<O
So am I but for Haiti I am not so concerned about this.<O
Even as a culturally lefty hippy I still think myself a solid if recent convert to primitive capitalism. <O
At the moment, thankfully, I do not think Haiti qualifies for a financial raping.<O
It did at one time in its past, of course, but that was back when we had the old fashioned approach to empires.<O
<O
I see it like this -<O
Investing cash to do work and make more cash is my kind of capitalism.<O
Friedman's is economic imperialism.<O
The great Emperors no longer administer groups of nations they run corporations. More realistically the combined needs of the cabal that is international finance, oil and other minerals - these interests administer nations.<O
<O
But hopefully this is what will save Haiti in the medium term.<O
<O
Haiti is bereft of anything that these ?Shock Capitalists? usually like to assume control of (school system, electricity company, water supply, phone network) preferably for a massively discounted financial responsibility and an avidly enforced and encouraging fiscal and legal environment, of course.<O
This makes Haiti an unlikely candidate for a full economic invasion as there are few existing state assets to administer for their profit.<O
They would have to spend billions before they could make a buck back. So no dice.<O
<O
But every silver lining has a cloud.
<O
<O
Haiti's general ?buggerall-ness? makes it the perfect place for the aid industry to set up shop and absorb its own nonsense.<O
By its very nature the aid industry lives in the cracks into which corporations don't see fit to reach; In this way the two coexist.<O
And for any substantial global economic entity such as the great aid rip-off , a sustainable symbiosis with the current global Emperors is regarded as a definite win.
<O
<O
Which is more destructive? You would have to judge for yourself.<O
Do you want very slowly to bleed to death at the hands of aid or be chewed up by the real world?<O
For me it would be the latter. Either way it would still be painful.<O
<O
And for all those folks who point to the NGO superstars, I say this.<O
Some few are going to achieve their stated aims just as surely as entrepreneurs occasionally get some wood on the ball.<O
So why, they may ask, is there currently more aid than capitalism in Haiti? After all, you consistently find what fits best the economic landscape wherever you look.<O
Is that not the very definition of a free and efficient market?<O
The difference is that when For-Profit organizations fail they disappear.<O
Not so with the Non-Profits; They hang around exactly as long as they fail to achieve their stated aims.<O
<O
And believe me, the folks who administer the aid corporations are just as protective of their lot as the money guys.<O
<O
The biggest difference between my primitive capitalist exploitation of Haiti and corporate exploitation of Haiti is this.<O
The primitive capitalists are in competition with each other. This allegedly culls the heard and forces checks and balances, evolving strong business. (In an ideal world)<O
The corporate Emperors have no competition so they do exactly what they feel they need to. Their operating environment does nothing to keep them honest.
<O
<O
So screw the massive aid rip-off.<O
And screw a surrender to the IMF, World bank and various well lobbied conglomerate management, security, equipment and construction companies.
<O
<O
How about a bit more Denis (Digicel) & NATCOM?<O
The economic development lesson is clear: Have a system of economic freedom and grow rich. Extensive government control, weak property rights and government corruption almost guarantee poverty. A country's institutional infrastructure is critical to its economic growth and the well-being of its citizens. The most critical are protection of private property, enforcement of contracts and rule of law.
To help our fellow man around the world, we must convince him to create the institutional infrastructure for wealth creation. Foreign aid, International Monetary Fund bailouts and other handouts are not substitutes. They just make political survival possible for the elite whose self-serving policies keep a nation poor. Except for immediate disaster relief, foreign aid is probably the worst thing the West can do for poor countries. After all, how much foreign aid is necessary for a country to create the foundations for growth: rule of law, enforcement of contracts and private property rights protection?
pedor
I'm no economics major and don't understand half of what you posted but I know Haiti would be better off if the governement didn't scare away all of the foreign investors.
A good example of one sector of which I am familiar is resorts. Resorts need no supporting infrastructure as they typically are in remote areas and have their own water, sewer and electrical service. All they really need is decent access and a reliable supply of food, etc. Why, therefore, does Haiti have so few of these businesses when there are still many scenic and beautiful beaches in Haiti? While the DR is not rich by any means the effects on the local economy are obvious to say the least.
If Haiti wants foreign investment they need to change their attitude and expectations and make it easy for foreigners to own property.
I'm no economics major and don't understand half of what you posted but I know Haiti would be better off if the governement didn't scare away all of the foreign investors.
A good example of one sector of which I am familiar is resorts. Resorts need no supporting infrastructure as they typically are in remote areas and have their own water, sewer and electrical service. All they really need is decent access and a reliable supply of food, etc. Why, therefore, does Haiti have so few of these businesses when there are still many scenic and beautiful beaches in Haiti? While the DR is not rich by any means the effects on the local economy are obvious to say the least.
If Haiti wants foreign investment they need to change their attitude and expectations and make it easy for foreigners to own property.
I agree - people doing business that employs people and enables them to buy stuff, send their kids to school and spend their hard earned on other people's businesses? Great.
Taking over a country's services and squeezing the pips out of it as a government protected monopoly? Not so great.
To be fair, Digicel were safe in the knowledge that there were only 3 (sort of) licenses for cellphone networks. Not just anybody can set up shop in the cellphone provider business. They also had a franchise so they could import materials duty free.
Without these conditions it would not have happened.
And finally, the money should stay in country - unlike all the so-called aid. As I have said before - a country can appear generous by committing US$100m to Haiti as aid. But when US$80m of that is debt forgiveness (that was never going to be paid anyway), US$10m is paid as salary to their own national NGOs back home, materials and services are imported from their own country, and vehicles are rented from established families who own Avis and Hertz franchises yet live and send their kids to school in the US - then there is little that actually finds its way into the Haitian economy - this is the great aid rip off.
Out of the notional US$100m only a few crumbs go to Haitians.
And they even have the nerve to announce "cashfor work" programs!!!
Holy crap! What a novel notion - they work and we pay them a pittance - cash for work?? Brilliant!
I bet whichever economic genius who thought of that is proud of themselves!
Give that tart a Nobel prize!
And while I am about it - the next person who tells me that "if you teach a man to fish" bullsh!t is going to get a slap.
Haitians can farm the heck out of any given piece of land.
The knowledge is not the problem.
The infrastructure is.
Now, pass me the Cinq Etoile!
Rant over!