Were the French the most brutal of the slave traders?

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,535
3,218
113
It means the former colonial blancs, since by the time most of the French military forces were either dead or fled that part of the island, with only 4,000 or so remaining on this part under the command of Louis Ferrand and Kerverseau. If with creole children you mean the so called gens de couleur, affranchi, mulattoes, etc., then no, they weren't touched. But then, their numbers had already been ravaged way before the Leclerc expedition. Namely, during the so called War of Knives between Toussaint and Rigaud, in which it's believed that 10,000 would perish during the "pacification" of the southern region by Dessalines. Of course, some of the Rigaudins like Lamartiniere would be spared after their switching sides.
Don't forget that most of the French soldiers sent by Napoleon died due to a brought of Yellow Fever. Had that never happened, I highly doubt the Haitians would had been victorious, because obviously most French soldiers didn't die in battle. Even Leclerc was infected and died from that.

The other side that is often ignored is the role the British played in helping defeat the French, but they did it with the hopes of taking over Saint Domingue and turning it into a British colony. The British ships arrived from Jamaica and basically blockaded every single port on the island on both the French and the Spanish side. With the blockade, the French's ability to get much needed supplies and re-enforcements from Cuba was greatly limited, because the British would attack all French vessels and confiscate everything. Even the Frenchmen that put themselves and their wives and children on small boats (probably yolas) attempting to flee from Haiti, because they couldn't flee towards inland, the British ships intervened many of them and basically forced them back to shore.

That's what the Haitian Revolution was all about. A string of Frenchmen scattered along the Haitian coast with an out of control slave population in the interior and pushing towards the coast, Yellow Fever killing the majority of the French soldiers, and to all salt to injury, the British attacking them from sea.

Also, about the massacre of whites by the Haitians, the fault for this falls squarely on Jean Jacques Dessalines. About a month ago I was reading a document on Jstor (can't remember the title) where the massacre of the French in Haiti was greatly detailed. It turns out that Dessalines gave the order to his soldiers to kill all the remaining whites and to use knives in order to not alert other whites in the towns before the soldier would reach them and kill them too. In most towns the killings didn't took place until Dessalines himself went there and basically ordered his soldier to comply with the orders or that he would do it and then he would subject his own soldiers to the sword as well. Most Haitian soldiers unwillingly complied, especially when it came to slitting the throat of the French women and the French children.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,535
3,218
113
Yep, I think he went to an expedition on the Amazon and all. I found it noteworthy, since at his time Jim Crow and the one drop rule were at their heyday. But it seems that not all Americans believed in such. Brazil only have the largest black population outside Africa if you use the one drop rule, cuz' if one uses the Latin American narrow definition of blackness (as in, racial purity doesn't go only the white way), then its actual black population would be less than 10%, give or take.
I'm currently reading Colonel Roosevelt by Edmund Morris and ironically, I'm currently at the part where the biography focuses on his expedition to South America. I'll let you know in the next few days if he did said that during his expedition and/or whether Morris makes any mention of it.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,535
3,218
113
The French were definitely among the worst slave owners. The difference between the treatments by the French compared to the Spanish explains many things about this island, including why racial resentment has historically been much more prevalent and stronger in Haiti than in Dominican Republic. Also, perhaps, why racial resentments have generally been lower in Dominican Republic compared to the British Caribbean or even the United States.

THE SPANISH WAY:

“It is conceded and curios fact, that while the early Spaniards of Santo Domingo had been the severest of taskmasters to their negro slaves, as time wore on they seem, for some reason or other, to have lost this habit, and their slaves were infinitely much better treated than those of the French. This may partly be accounted for from the fact that population became so reduced in the island at one time, that master and slave relied upon each other for company and support, and the chains were in this way gradually lightened.

The actual slave laws of the Spaniards were in fact rather mild in their character, and even more lenient in some respects than those of the celebrated Code Noir. All their laws had for their object the facilitating the freedom of the slave who could ransom himself by reimbursing his master for his original outlay; for not only was the master compelled to receive installments on account of the desired freedom of the slave, but the law fixed a maximum price at which that liberty should be purchased, and which price being offered, the master was compelled to accept. Other articles there were, which, if strictly enforced, would serve to lighten the bonds of the slave very much. This facility of freedom had rendered it easy for the blacks of Spanish Santo Domingo to secure their liberty, of which they freely availed themselves, to such an extent, that at one time, of a population amounting to 125,000 in that part of the island, 100,000 were freemen.”

“It is also a notorious fact that the Spaniards never seem to have had the same stringent laws against their intermarrying with the negroes that the French had.”

“The effect of this loose system was soon seen in the mixed character of population, which, gradually extending itself as time wore on, has left its imprint on the present population of the island, where it is sometimes hard to tell where the white begins or the black leaves off.”

(Samuel Hazard; Santo Domingo Past and Present with a Glance at Haiti – p. 103 and 104)

THE FRENCH WAY:

“As early as 1685, when Louis XIV published the Code Noir, it was seen that great irregularities had sprang up between white masters, who had the power of life and death, and their female slaves, and in order if possible to prevent these, many articles, now curious in their character, were inserted; such, for instance, as the fining of a white two thousand pounds of sugar who should have children by his slave. If a white debauched a slave, the woman and her children were to be sold for the benefit of the hospital, without ever having the power to be repurchased.” (p. 108-109)
“The men of colour, though free as far as their personal service to individuals was concerned, were yet considered as the property of the public; and, as public property, they were subject to the caprice and tyranny of all those whom the accident of birth had placed above them.

By the Colonial Government they were treated, however, as slaves, being compelled, on reaching the age of manhood, to serve for three years in a military establishment called the Mar? Chauss?e.”

“Upon the expiration of their terms of service in the Mar? Chauss?e, the mulattoes were also subject to the work of the corv?es, a species of labour allotted for the repair of the highways, the hardships of which nearly all authorities agree in describing as terrible.”

“…they were nevertheless entirely deprived of any power to hold public office or employment, and were entirely debarred from all manner of liberal professions, and even the taint of blood spread to the latest posterity, so that no white man of any character ever thought of marriage with them. In the courts of justice, also, there was one justice for the white man and another for the coloured.”

“Of the horrible cruelties practiced upon the lowest class of the inhabitants –the negroes held in slavery- by their white masters, I shall in these pages give no details. They would fill volumes, and are to be found in the pages of every respectable authority of the time, as well French as Creole. Unfortunately, they are too familiar already to the public.”
(109-110)


I have also read several historical accounts that took place in the Philippines during their Spanish period, and without fail there too foreigners commented on how freely the Spaniards mixed with the local population and how many foreigners were shocked to see so many non-whites and mixed people seated on the same tables as the Spanish to discuss political matters and such; very much unlike the strict racial segregation seen in the Dutch and other European colonies in Southeast Asia.
 
Last edited:

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,535
3,218
113
By the way, where it says "of a population amounting to 125,000 in that part of the island, 100,000 were freemen" its meant to say 110,000.


Needless to say, the French were very brutal to both the black slaves and the mulattoes. For centuries the Spanish authorities in Santo Domingo even accepted mulattoes and even free blacks to hold political positions, including some of great importance while in Haiti mulattoes and blacks were barred even from the lowest jobs in government.

Unlike in the Spanish side, racial segregation was infinitely much stronger in Saint Domingue and racial mixing greatly discouraged.
 
Last edited:

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
224
63
Only 3000 is small potato in the history of massacres. The french massacred a much larger number of negros during their stay in st-domingue.

Yeah, but don't forget the ones killed in the first "negro civil war", between the forces of Toussaint (then under the French banner) and the ones of Jean Francois and Biassou (under the Spanish one).
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
Speaking of the French in St-Domingue.

In that colony you had the wealthiest group of people of colour at the time.

That group of free mulattos and free blacks owned 1/3 of the plantations and slaves in the colony.

Just as many blacks/mulattos as whites fled during the revolution.....to other parts.

These creole of colour left their impact on New Orleans and started the first black owned newspaper in the united states.

The st-domingue refugees white/mulatto/black doubled new orleans creole population.

From the St-domingue population of colour we get one of the greats of French litterature Alexandre Dumas (the three musketeers..the count of monte cristo etc).

From the St-domingue population of colour we get the highest ranked military members in a western army general alexandre dumas (grandfather of Dumas (fils) and general Toussaint Louverture......it took 200 years for Colin Powel in the USA to reach such a level.

Brutal or not...it appears that the french offered their free blacks /mulattos opportunities not found among other colonizers.

It was that group of free people of colour who started the struggle with France.......because even with their wealth and education they were still seen as below the "petit blanc".........skin colour above achievement and refinement.

Haiti's racial issues have little to do with whites.

It is and has always been a struggle between the former free people of colour...black and mulattos...and the former slaves.

Which makes it harder to address because there is not a clear cut racial line as in Zimbabwe or South Africa. It is now a class issue with a tint of colorism.
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
224
63
Don't forget that most of the French soldiers sent by Napoleon died due to a brought of Yellow Fever. Had that never happened, I highly doubt the Haitians would had been victorious, because obviously most French soldiers didn't die in battle. Even Leclerc was infected and died from that.

The other side that is often ignored is the role the British played in helping defeat the French, but they did it with the hopes of taking over Saint Domingue and turning it into a British colony. The British ships arrived from Jamaica and basically blockaded every single port on the island on both the French and the Spanish side. With the blockade, the French's ability to get much needed supplies and re-enforcements from Cuba was greatly limited, because the British would attack all French vessels and confiscate everything. Even the Frenchmen that put themselves and their wives and children on small boats (probably yolas) attempting to flee from Haiti, because they couldn't flee towards inland, the British ships intervened many of them and basically forced them back to shore.

That's what the Haitian Revolution was all about. A string of Frenchmen scattered along the Haitian coast with an out of control slave population in the interior and pushing towards the coast, Yellow Fever killing the majority of the French soldiers, and to all salt to injury, the British attacking them from sea.

Also, about the massacre of whites by the Haitians, the fault for this falls squarely on Jean Jacques Dessalines. About a month ago I was reading a document on Jstor (can't remember the title) where the massacre of the French in Haiti was greatly detailed. It turns out that Dessalines gave the order to his soldiers to kill all the remaining whites and to use knives in order to not alert other whites in the towns before the soldier would reach them and kill them too. In most towns the killings didn't took place until Dessalines himself went there and basically ordered his soldier to comply with the orders or that he would do it and then he would subject his own soldiers to the sword as well. Most Haitian soldiers unwillingly complied, especially when it came to slitting the throat of the French women and the French children.

I'd recommend for you to read the letters of Leonora Sansay, the niece of US vicepresident Aaron Burr, which are collected in the book called "The Horrors of San Domingo". It's an interesting account of the period between the capture and ongoing deportation of Toussaint Louverture by the French and the final defeat of the French forces, and also includes the flight of the author in question to Baracoa, Cuba, and from there on to Philadelphia. There's also an apochryphal written by the same author titled "Zelica, the Creole".
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
Yeah, but don't forget the ones killed in the first "negro civil war", between the forces of Toussaint (then under the French banner) and the ones of Jean Francois and Biassou (under the Spanish one).

People lost in battle would not be considered as part of a massacre of civilians. More negros died in all these battles.
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
224
63
Speaking of the French in St-Domingue.

In that colony you had the wealthiest group of people of colour at the time.

That group of free mulattos and free blacks owned 1/3 of the plantations and slaves in the colony.

Just as many blacks/mulattos as whites fled during the revolution.....to other parts.

These creole of colour left their impact on New Orleans and started the first black owned newspaper in the united states.

The st-domingue refugees white/mulatto/black doubled new orleans creole population.

From the St-domingue population of colour we get one of the greats of French litterature Alexandre Dumas (the three musketeers..the count of monte cristo etc).

From the St-domingue population of colour we get the highest ranked military members in a western army general alexandre dumas (grandfather of Dumas (fils) and general Toussaint Louverture......it took 200 years for Colin Powel in the USA to reach such a level.

Brutal or not...it appears that the french offered their free blacks /mulattos opportunities not found among other colonizers.

It was that group of free people of colour who started the struggle with France.......because even with their wealth and education they were still seen as below the "petit blanc".........skin colour above achievement and refinement.

Haiti's racial issues have little to do with whites.

It is and has always been a struggle between the former free people of colour...black and mulattos...and the former slaves.

Which makes it harder to address because there is not a clear cut racial line as in Zimbabwe or South Africa. It is now a class issue with a tint of colorism.

Even though they would end up being expelled from that island as well (in 1809), the exiled Dominguan elites would be the ones to jumpstart the sugar and coffee industries in the Cuban island. Without their input, the economic take-off of that island would have taken longer to pull out, that's for certain.
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
224
63
The other side that is often ignored is the role the British played in helping defeat the French, but they did it with the hopes of taking over Saint Domingue and turning it into a British colony. The British ships arrived from Jamaica and basically blockaded every single port on the island on both the French and the Spanish side. With the blockade, the French's ability to get much needed supplies and re-enforcements from Cuba was greatly limited, because the British would attack all French vessels and confiscate everything. Even the Frenchmen that put themselves and their wives and children on small boats (probably yolas) attempting to flee from Haiti, because they couldn't flee towards inland, the British ships intervened many of them and basically forced them back to shore.

There are some British historians, like Thomas Carlyle, which sustained the assertion that the British would be weak in the first part of the French Revolutionary wars in the European theater due to their having spent many troops in the Dominguan adventure (some estimate that they spent 50,000 souls, just like their French counterparts), although I consider that number to be exaggerated in their case, considering the fact that they felt the need to employ colonist emigre forces (both white and mulatto propietors) in the endeavor as well.
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
Even though they would end up being expelled from that island as well (in 1809), the exiled Dominguan elites would be the ones to jumpstart the sugar and coffee industries in the Cuban island. Without their input, the economic take-off of that island would have taken longer to pull out, that's for certain.

I agree....Haiti's lost was Cuba's gain.

Here is more on the St-Domingue free people of colour refugees to New Orleans.

This is part 1 of 4....once on youtube you can watch part 2....3..and 4

Creole Common Routes; St.Domingue (Haiti) - Louisiana Part 1 - YouTube
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
224
63
From the St-domingue population of colour we get one of the greats of French litterature Alexandre Dumas (the three musketeers..the count of monte cristo etc).

His books are definitely a must, yeah. The only ones left for me to try are "Georges" and the last one about the Napoleonic Wars, the Knight of Saint-Hermine, although this one is unfinished (due to his death). My favorite ones, though, are the Marie Antoinette romances (Joseph Balsamo, the Queen's Necklace, Ange Pitou, the Countess of Charny and the Knight of Maison-Rouge, although this latter one is quite tragic).
 

jackichan

Bronze
Jun 23, 2011
540
0
0
I tend to think slavery was a result of human greed. The africans/ indians being sold out by their tribesmen to the arabs and whites - it's even more saddening that it still happens in this day and time.

Who knows maybe in the next few hundred years europe will be at the mercy of arabs & blacks
 
Aug 6, 2006
8,775
12
38
Some referred to them as the sons of the princes of Africa since surely only they could survive the brutality of the voyage.
------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a bit of XVI century thinking if ever there was one: the royalty are more capable because, being royalty, they are naturally superior beings.

I would say that the degree of cruelty varied from ship to ship and from plantation to plantation. The problem of colonization is that the land is more or less free, but the colonists mostly did not come to the American to chop tobacco or cut sugarcane, and the Indians were not into that either, especially because their contacts with the Europeans and their diseases eliminated the majority of them. Africans were more immune to the diseases that wiped out the Indians, because there had been centuries of contact between Africa and Europe, and they had experience in tropical farming and some of the crops.

Both Theodore Roosevelt and Thomas Carlyle had the idea that some people (Anglo Saxons, specifically) were naturally more intelligent and more talented than others, and their ideas are seen as pass?.

Here in Miami, some Haitians have been arrested and convicted of holding other Haitians (called rest-avecs) as unpaid servants for months and even years. The rest-avec system is one in which orphans or children of destitute parents
are raised by more affluent Haitians as servants, and denied a salary, the ability to leave the house, and schooling in return for room and board.

It is often said that Haiti was the first independent Black nation. But for nearly a century, there was a quilombo in the Brazilian state of Alagoas that was independent from the Portuguese empire in the 1600's.

Palmares (quilombo) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was eventually defeated by the Brazilian military. One could argue that it was not a PERMANENTLY independent country and was not recognized as a country at all, but it was a successful slave rebellion that lasted for several lifetimes.
 
Aug 6, 2006
8,775
12
38
Who knows maybe in the next few hundred years Europe will be at the mercy of arabs & blacks

===============================================================
This would depend on the Arabs and Blacks remaining unified in a common purpose. Blacks and Arabs in Europe are not unified now, and tend to separate themselves by country within the minority to which they belong.

I would imagine that a fusion of cultures between these groups and the locals is more likely.
Blacks come close to outnumbering Whites in Mississippi, but one certainly cannot say that Mississippi Whites are at the mercy of Blacks. Whites in Barahona are hardly at the mercy of Blacks. Money seems to be what separates people more than "race".

In Mississippi there are two cultures, one White and one Black (or possibly four if you separate the rich from the poor). In Barahona, there is really just one common culture, which is divided by income far more than by complexion. Or at least that is how it seems to me. The RD is more advanced at developing equality than Mississippi. Of course, there has not been any slavery in the DR since the early 1800's, while legal slavery in Mississippi ended in 1865, but cultural slavery (ie segregation) ended only several decades ago.
 

pelaut

Bronze
Aug 5, 2007
1,089
33
48
www.ThornlessPath.com
Who knows maybe in the next few hundred years europe will be at the mercy of arabs & blacks
It already was. North Africa was a sump for the little mouths of Europe during famines. The Children's Crusades were used to reduce the hungry by selling them off to African potentates. White, blue-eyed and blonde prepubescent boys were especially favored. It was thought that eating their livers was like Viagra for old men. Then the girls could be used.

Thomas Sowell writes that over all of history more white Europeans were brought into Africa as slaves than all the Africans brought to America as slaves.

Footnote: even during slavery in the U.S. there were black African immigrants who came to seek their fortunes just like Europeans and Asians.
 
Aug 6, 2006
8,775
12
38
Miguel de Cervantes, the author of Don Quijote, was a galley slave of the Turks. He was wounded and captured at the Battle of Lepanto and held for ransom. The Spanish spent a huge amount of the fortune they took from the Americas financing a long war with the Ottoman Empire over who would dominate the Mediterranean. Eventually they won.

I wonder how Thomas Sowell managed to count all the slaves sent in both directions over a period of centuries. This sounds like idle speculation to me.

The population of North Africa has always been more White than Black, even before Roman times. Egyptians painted themselves in various shades on their tombs. Berbers were dominant west of Egypt, and genetically probably still are.