- Thread starter Criss Colon
- Start date
Why do so many Dominicans in the US never learn English
Hey, bud, good to hear from you! Been awhile! when do you get back from the sandbox? I"ll see if I can't have a cold Presidente ready....ALB3 said:
This whole thread reminds me of a friendship I once had with a man named Oscar.
Oscar cleaned the building in which I worked. We struck up a friendship when he learned I was the Spanish teacher. I invited him into my classroom to speak with the kids, just every day stuff, salutations, etc. We always exchanged niceties.
At one point I asked him if he spoke English. Nope, not a lick. Was he recently arrived from El Salvador? Nope. 12 years in the US. Why had he never learned English? He never had to. Everyone in his community spoke Spanish. Did he want to learn? Nope, not really. All the girls he liked spoke Spanish. He went to a Spanish-speaking church, shopped at Spanish-spaking businesses, and one day he showed me his awesome AWESOME silver Toyota sports car which he had purchased from a Spanish-speaking dealer.
How many native Spanish speakers actually need English in the US today? Yes, you NEED English, but not to survive....
Oscar cleaned the building in which I worked. We struck up a friendship when he learned I was the Spanish teacher. I invited him into my classroom to speak with the kids, just every day stuff, salutations, etc. We always exchanged niceties.
At one point I asked him if he spoke English. Nope, not a lick. Was he recently arrived from El Salvador? Nope. 12 years in the US. Why had he never learned English? He never had to. Everyone in his community spoke Spanish. Did he want to learn? Nope, not really. All the girls he liked spoke Spanish. He went to a Spanish-speaking church, shopped at Spanish-spaking businesses, and one day he showed me his awesome AWESOME silver Toyota sports car which he had purchased from a Spanish-speaking dealer.
How many native Spanish speakers actually need English in the US today? Yes, you NEED English, but not to survive....
Criss Colon said:
This opinion is on the ignorant side of things.
Most "latin" immigrants to the USA are poor and of course with a minimal education. At arrival the 1st priority is "making ends meet" and sometimes having 2-3 jobs to do it. English is a very difficult language to master more difficult than Castillian "the spanish language does not exist - it is castillian"
You can really speak ghetto "spanish" and people will understand you making you beleive that you actually speak well. English is a different story. In Canada/USA high school grads are not literate in English but they do speak the language.
Now the SSL/ESL classes are promoted by the government so you become a better taxpayer by getting a better job thru your improved communications skills.
BY the way "Latin or Latinos" are "White Europeans" or descendants from the following European Countries (Latin countries) :
France/Portugal/Spain/Romania and Italy.
Dominicans with African ancestry and Mexican with Indian ancestry are not LATINS OR LATINOS.
By the way, do not tell a basque,catalan, asturian or galician that they're Spanish.
BY the way "Latin or Latinos" are "White Europeans" or descendants from the following European Countries (Latin countries) :
France/Portugal/Spain/Romania and Italy.
Dominicans with African ancestry and Mexican with Indian ancestry are not LATINS OR LATINOS.
By the way, do not tell a basque,catalan, asturian or galician that they're Spanish."
Well, Tom, the truth is that Latin or Latino is not a racial term. Anybody whose native language and culture comes from the countries you've mentioned is Latin or Latino. The same thing applies to Arabs, for example: Anyone whose native language and culture is Arabic is an Arab, regardless of his actual racial composition. Genetically speaking, even the Latin peoples of Europe are the product of different mixtures, begining in Spain where Germanic, Berber, Iberian and Semitic genes, besides those of the Latin Romans, gave birth to the present Spanish population. Romanians are Latin in language and culture, but when it comes to bloodlines, they are as varied as the Spanish and are not even Catholic but Orthodox. Most people in Latin America do have Spanish ancestry, although mixed with other races and ethnicities. Many are of both Spanish and Indian genes, as is the case of most Mexicans and other nationalities in the region. IN some countries, besides those bloodstreams, you have to add the Negro to the mix and the Lebanese, German, Jewish and whatever other genes have contributed to the region's population. Brazilians of any color or mixture are Latins and so are Mexicans and Cubans and Dominicans, regardless of color.
As far as the reasons you gave for many Latin inmigrants not learning English, I agree with you.
France/Portugal/Spain/Romania and Italy.
Dominicans with African ancestry and Mexican with Indian ancestry are not LATINS OR LATINOS.
By the way, do not tell a basque,catalan, asturian or galician that they're Spanish."
Well, Tom, the truth is that Latin or Latino is not a racial term. Anybody whose native language and culture comes from the countries you've mentioned is Latin or Latino. The same thing applies to Arabs, for example: Anyone whose native language and culture is Arabic is an Arab, regardless of his actual racial composition. Genetically speaking, even the Latin peoples of Europe are the product of different mixtures, begining in Spain where Germanic, Berber, Iberian and Semitic genes, besides those of the Latin Romans, gave birth to the present Spanish population. Romanians are Latin in language and culture, but when it comes to bloodlines, they are as varied as the Spanish and are not even Catholic but Orthodox. Most people in Latin America do have Spanish ancestry, although mixed with other races and ethnicities. Many are of both Spanish and Indian genes, as is the case of most Mexicans and other nationalities in the region. IN some countries, besides those bloodstreams, you have to add the Negro to the mix and the Lebanese, German, Jewish and whatever other genes have contributed to the region's population. Brazilians of any color or mixture are Latins and so are Mexicans and Cubans and Dominicans, regardless of color.
As far as the reasons you gave for many Latin inmigrants not learning English, I agree with you.
Expectations.
Your expectations bound your potential achievement. If you merely seek "survival", then you don't need to learn the language. You don't even need an education.
If you simply learn to "get your point across", and nothing more..... then... don't forget to Super Size that order for me.
The goal is not to produce another crop of office-cleaning-half-literate Dominicans. The current system has accomplished that with flying colors. We don't need no more stinking sub-standard Dominicans.
Immersion. Immersion.Immersion. That's what I did. Enough coddling. We are not genetically stupid. We don't need to be treated like retards.
Educators are part of the problem. They set our sights low. They think we are idiots. They encumber us with their limitations.
Had I left it up to my high school educators, I would not be where I am today. My own calculus teacher told me I would not complete engineering school. How do you like that?
Your expectations bound your potential achievement. If you merely seek "survival", then you don't need to learn the language. You don't even need an education.
If you simply learn to "get your point across", and nothing more..... then... don't forget to Super Size that order for me.
The goal is not to produce another crop of office-cleaning-half-literate Dominicans. The current system has accomplished that with flying colors. We don't need no more stinking sub-standard Dominicans.
Immersion. Immersion.Immersion. That's what I did. Enough coddling. We are not genetically stupid. We don't need to be treated like retards.
Educators are part of the problem. They set our sights low. They think we are idiots. They encumber us with their limitations.
Had I left it up to my high school educators, I would not be where I am today. My own calculus teacher told me I would not complete engineering school. How do you like that?
juancarlos said:
Well. I do not agree. Latin is ethnically defined. Because you do speak a certain language that does not make you an aglosaxon, german, italian, etc. Yes, I do agree that the Spanish and the rest of Europe is racially mixed having in common that they're caucasian "so called white" African American are just called that in the USA. Latin label is being used to identify a group the easy way or the fast food way. There are many differences between a Dominican and A Cuban. For a Gringo it is the same BS but is not. Look at what Cubans have achieve in the USA. A Cuban was president of Coca-Cola worldwide for many years. Bacardi is Cuban built by Cubans becoming the the 2nd largest liquor company in the world. The Mexicans did not achieve in California what Cubans have achieved in Miami. How can we assume that we're the same all Latinos. IN Peru you have a civilization that goes way back before the Spaniards came to America. Having a Spanish ancestry myself, I feel more of Gringo in Peru, Mexico, DR, Ecuador, Guatemala that a foreigner in the streets of Toronto or any US city.
One situation
I have a 30 year old Dominican man working for me here in NYC. He has been in US for the past two years and speaks no English. (I have learned most of my Spanish from him since I need to give him work orders and direction each day.) His wife, a Dominicana, speaks English and in fact works in the Administration dept. of a local school. They live in upper Manhattan where English is not required to do ANYTHING.
The fact that his wife speaks English bothers the s**t out of him but "he can get along just fine without learning English" I tell him every day that for his and his son's sake (5 years old) he has to make the effort to learn. "I don't have the time. I work for you all day long. I go home see the wife and kid, have dinner,a little TV, and go to bed" Yeah OK, the same thing my 90 year old Italian father did and had to learn English when he came to this country at the age of 17. And, the same problems of survival that the gozillions of all immigrants had and will have. For the adult (ESL for children is another story) schooling, self help, breaking out of the shield of Spanish speaking communities, is the ONLY hope this immigrant class has for them to move ahead in our (USA) society.
I have a 30 year old Dominican man working for me here in NYC. He has been in US for the past two years and speaks no English. (I have learned most of my Spanish from him since I need to give him work orders and direction each day.) His wife, a Dominicana, speaks English and in fact works in the Administration dept. of a local school. They live in upper Manhattan where English is not required to do ANYTHING.
The fact that his wife speaks English bothers the s**t out of him but "he can get along just fine without learning English" I tell him every day that for his and his son's sake (5 years old) he has to make the effort to learn. "I don't have the time. I work for you all day long. I go home see the wife and kid, have dinner,a little TV, and go to bed" Yeah OK, the same thing my 90 year old Italian father did and had to learn English when he came to this country at the age of 17. And, the same problems of survival that the gozillions of all immigrants had and will have. For the adult (ESL for children is another story) schooling, self help, breaking out of the shield of Spanish speaking communities, is the ONLY hope this immigrant class has for them to move ahead in our (USA) society.
Wrong
Bacardi was not started by Cubans, in fact, by and Italian immigrant to Cuba. Then during the Castro years moved the operation to Puerto Rico.
To answer the other post, having a retirement home in the DR is fine. However, you still need to live. The problems that the Dominicans faced before they left still remain.
Bacardi was not started by Cubans, in fact, by and Italian immigrant to Cuba. Then during the Castro years moved the operation to Puerto Rico.
To answer the other post, having a retirement home in the DR is fine. However, you still need to live. The problems that the Dominicans faced before they left still remain.
Chirimoya said:
Those that leave their countries do so because they are at the bottom of the food chain. Those that sit on the upper rungs will never leave unless forced to do so by social or political circumstances.
Of the group of friends we formed in the DR only two of us left for the US because by the age of twenty we were hitting the ceiling.
As far as I know the rest are still there and at the time they thought we were crazy when we said we were leaving. The two of us that moved here are still in touch and still think the same way.
Something that helped was that when we arrived we were semi-literate and we understood that without knowing the language we would never get anywhere.
tomgallo said:
Sorry to hear that. I also have a Spanish ancestry and that thing is like a curse.
Do a Google on Spain and you'll see what I mean. They have to be the most screwed up country in Europe. And we ask ourselves around here why we can't we get along.
As far as the Cubans go I think you are confusing pork fat with velocity. They are a totally different group. They are an entire social (high) class forced to subsist outside their country.
I think your story plays out for alot of hispanics accept for (Argentineans, Chiliens, Uruguayans which usually make an attempt to learn english) who basically could careless about learning the english language. Everything they need to survive are provided for them in their little barrio and most never leave their little barrio. Thus, they become comfortable with their way of living as a subgroup in the Great US of A without caring less for the lanuage and culture of their adopted home. Most hispanics who imigrate to the US are illiterate in their own languages to begin with. I can go to just about every barrio and maybe 1 out of a 100 could read in spanish. Even in their restaurant on the menu you'll see "bevidas" or "poyo" which is a damn shame. Thus, these subgroups are lazy and always want a damn hand out and have no respect nor do they appreciate the USA . US will never make spanish official and put their own at a disadvantage. In my opinion the USA is doomed with these new Americans and will be considered the dumbest country in the world in like 2015 if this continues. By the way,if good Ol US of A even feel a tad bit a lack of patriotism from their new Americans they will put an end to this quickly...
Like your friend Oscar most hispanics will always be third class citizen and discriminated on which I have no pitty for if you imigrated to the USA at a young age(mid twenties) and have lived here for twelve years and cant even speak english to order a damn number 2 at Mcdonalds. Like Oscar most will never go beyond their janitor and housekeeping jobs...
Like your friend Oscar most hispanics will always be third class citizen and discriminated on which I have no pitty for if you imigrated to the USA at a young age(mid twenties) and have lived here for twelve years and cant even speak english to order a damn number 2 at Mcdonalds. Like Oscar most will never go beyond their janitor and housekeeping jobs...
MaineGirl said:
GReat point...When the Italians came over and other non english speaking immigrants. They learned english quick or starve to death because of lack of communication at the job... Now these dominicans and other hispanics want you to learn spanish rather than them english like your the immigrant... Well, if they dont make an attempt to emerge in America then these barrios are doomed...Have you ever walked or drove thru a dominican or hispanic neighborhood. They've created a little mirror image of their homeland and careless going beyond their surroundings....
johne said:
Pib said:
Did I touch a raw nerve? You probably have a lot of Spanish blood.
Don't you know that every region of Spain considers itself a different country with its own language and form of government? Did you know they still go around measuring people's skulls to determine what race is more superior?
Now, give me an example of any county they colonized that today is not a mess.
Asians are one of the most progressive group on earth but Spain even managed to screw up the Philippines.
No, no Spanish blood here. No more than the average Dominican. I just cringe at seen people slinging nonsense and misinformation like monkeys slinging feces.Petaka said:
Would you care to throw a few cites to back up what you just said? And what does the Phillipines have to do with modern Spain?
Education level of immigrants plays a role
I'm sure if research was done(probably has been), the majority of well educated immigrants to the US or Canada take English training both in their country of origin or their new country. Before my wife first moved to Canada, i contacted all the spanish speaking people in our area so that she would have not only spanish speaking people to talk to, but also to help with intergration. The cultural shock of another country involves far more than learning another language. When Yris found out about all my arrangements to help her,she was pleased, but said "I''ll be glad to meet all those people but I want to learn English first. My stepson, who spoke no English when he came here is averaging around 80% in English(grade nine) and Yris started off with ESL, then Grade 12 English, then College level. Although she will never be mistaken for a native English speaker, she has no problems carring on conversations or business. An interesting thing to watch is when people from numerous non-English speaking countries are gathered around speaking their common language-English. There are some amazing adaptations of English. Back to my original observation. In dealing with immigrants from many countries, which I did as a local director of a multi-cultural society;those immigrants with a good education in their own country were the one that took the greatest interest in learning English here.
I'm sure if research was done(probably has been), the majority of well educated immigrants to the US or Canada take English training both in their country of origin or their new country. Before my wife first moved to Canada, i contacted all the spanish speaking people in our area so that she would have not only spanish speaking people to talk to, but also to help with intergration. The cultural shock of another country involves far more than learning another language. When Yris found out about all my arrangements to help her,she was pleased, but said "I''ll be glad to meet all those people but I want to learn English first. My stepson, who spoke no English when he came here is averaging around 80% in English(grade nine) and Yris started off with ESL, then Grade 12 English, then College level. Although she will never be mistaken for a native English speaker, she has no problems carring on conversations or business. An interesting thing to watch is when people from numerous non-English speaking countries are gathered around speaking their common language-English. There are some amazing adaptations of English. Back to my original observation. In dealing with immigrants from many countries, which I did as a local director of a multi-cultural society;those immigrants with a good education in their own country were the one that took the greatest interest in learning English here.
Where is the misinformation????? If it is misinformation you should come up with some material to debunk it.
Hellooo... Google. If you give me a couple of minutes I'll take you by the hand.
I was talking about colonization - like in the past - not modern Spain.
A little black coffe in the morning does wonders.