Why the Dominican Republic is Poor

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Criss Colon said:
A REALLY LEFT WING SOAP BOX(ENGLISH)TOO BOOT!
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Which came first,the chicken,or the egg???

The DR got itself into trouble,then went to the WORLD with it's hands outstretched! It is the fault of DOMINICANS,who then stole all the money they borrowed and went back for more!
I have no love lost for the IMF,WB,or any other "NGOs", who are nothing more than international "Loan Sharks"! But lets not blame the "Shark" for eating the "Victim",THATS what sharks do now isn't it??????????

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Congratulations CC, you figured out the code!

Yeup, yeup...

I guess we can apply this to everything now... let's see,

Criminals are not responsible for their crimes because that's what criminals do.

Child molestors are not responsible for that either because that's what they do.

Terrorists are not responsible for their mass murder coward events because that's what they do.

Yeup yeup, CC figured out the code! Congratulations!:rolleyes:

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
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Chirimoya said:
Actually Criss, The Economist is accepted to be a conservative publication, although it is generally respected across the spectrum.

The Wikipedia entry on TE says:


I'm not usually one to come to the defence of Nals, but he is right in that the causes of poverty anywhere are both home grown and externally imposed.

Unlike Nals, I don't think one cancels out, excuses or even diminishes the other. On the contrary - poor countries would be in a better shape to resist the external pressures if they were to go some way towards putting their house in order.
Hey Chiri!

As usual, you seem to interpret my posts the way they were meant to be, but never fully. I'll give you credit, since most people don't even get close. However, I don't think one cancels the other out, but rather each complements each other. When three people have their hands in a large Jar, you got to blame all three for the missing cookies.

-NALs:cool:
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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I'm sorry NALs but your analogy doesn't hold up. The IMF and other "loan sharks" are the ones holding said cookie jar and don't have their hands in it.Referring to the DR it's the politicans that have their hands in the jar and it is them only that hold the blame.

Rick
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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NALs said:
Hey Chiri!

As usual, you seem to interpret my posts the way they were meant to be, but never fully. I'll give you credit, since most people don't even get close. However, I don't think one cancels the other out, but rather each complements each other. When three people have their hands in a large Jar, you got to blame all three for the missing cookies.

-NALs:cool:

Nals, the one who took the cookies is responsible. There are external factors that keep countries poor and keep populations in servitude and we see many examples of this around us today. The causes of poverty have been studied for a long long time and most the world is only coming to grips with it now (I hope!) In our case, closer to home, I would venture a WILD guess that if the cookie jar in the DR was *not* raided by those who have been raiding it for a long long time, and the money went to where the money was supposed to go, we just maybe could have had a different country.

And while I am about it, your long list of economist links are more of same. Obfustication. I actually looked at them and found only one marginally on topic -- even if the topic is 'the other side of the coin'.

If you can come out straight and say that the DR has been raped and pillaged by its politicians, and in conjunction with this process, the 'other side of the coin' played a large part, no-one would argue with you 'cause this is patently accurate. But, please man, say it!

OK,ok, enough of a computer for me today!
 

arturo

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Mar 14, 2002
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Predictable reply: Anyone but Dominicans are responsible for the DRs problems

How did I know this was coming?


NALs said:
Now that we "know" the inner workings of such, let's now focus on international influences on the majority of the world's countries which are poor.

http://www.zmag.org/ParEcon/palastimf.htm

Every coin has two sides.

-NALs

Edited to add: For those of you who develop an interest into this, simply click here for a sample.

http://www.plutobooks.com/pdf/0745318460.pdf
 

RHM

Doctor of Diplomacy
Sep 23, 2002
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May I interrupt?

NALs said:
Congratulations CC, you figured out the code!

Yeup, yeup...

I guess we can apply this to everything now... let's see,

Criminals are not responsible for their crimes because that's what criminals do.

Child molestors are not responsible for that either because that's what they do.

Terrorists are not responsible for their mass murder coward events because that's what they do.

Yeup yeup, CC figured out the code! Congratulations!:rolleyes:

-NALs

I interrupt this thread with a special announcement....

NALS is still a moron.

You babble aimlessly and rarely make any point whatsoever.

I had to sit with many people like you when I listened to two nights in a row of Noam Chomsky last week. People in this country are born saying "No mi culpa"..."No fui yo". And then they wonder when the world continues to pass them by.

I have taken a much needed hiatus from "the board" to pursue some other projects. Obviously I haven't missed much.

Ok. Carry on. Sorry for the intrusion.

Scandall
"Free at last!"
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Rick Snyder said:
I'm sorry NALs but your analogy doesn't hold up. The IMF and other "loan sharks" are the ones holding said cookie jar and don't have their hands in it.Referring to the DR it's the politicans that have their hands in the jar and it is them only that hold the blame.

Rick
I stand corrected.

-NALs
 

NALs

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Chris said:
If you can come out straight and say that the DR has been raped and pillaged by its politicians, and in conjunction with this process, the 'other side of the coin' played a large part, no-one would argue with you 'cause this is patently accurate. But, please man, say it!
Well, in my reply (post #18) I did posted this:

NALs said:
"who is not aware that politicians are the problem? Well then? What will be done about this? Keep complaining? Hint, it seems to not be working."

-NALs
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Mirador started this thread and he put it into a statement and supplied a link that after reading it almost all would ascertain that the people in power are the culprits behind a country not obtaining its potential. As the article stated “A Theory of Government Banditry”.This is particularly true here in the DR. As the reason that things are so “mucked up” in the DR is so apparent it seems that this thread should now come to a close or the debate should focus on what can be done to alleviate the discrepancies.

I knew why the DR is in serious trouble and it was nice seeing it written by someone else. As the aforementioned article applies to all poor countries that aren’t improving their lot in life, and some rich ones also, it is apparent that something should and can be done to correct the situation.

As we have gotten into the proverbial name calling rut then it must be time for me to unsubscribe to this thread.

Rick
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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It's a viscous circle. Government corruption crestes negative wealth creation, the country nears economic collapse, the IMF/WB comes in and offers assistance to uncreditworthy countries (and their politicians), the money gets siphoned off and rarely does what the primary purpose was (the law of unintended consequences), new officials with "pure intent" get elected, the IMF comes in again and "restructures" the old debt, and creates more new debt...etc., etc., etc.

I see NALS comenting on just a few radials of the Great Circle, not the Whole Circle.

The cycle will continue until the people choose to stop it, and not a nanosecond before. That is when the people put the countries interest above their personal level of theft.
 

bobandjudy

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Values matter

Hi. First, I thank everyone for your help to us since we arrived in the DR 18 months ago. I enjoy reading dr1.com's posts and I've learned much about the DR from you--keep up the good work!

You'll recall that this thread started with an article from Mirador's post, Why Poor Countries Are Poor, a graphic description of Cameroon's poverty and inefficiency. The book CULTURE MATTERS has a chapter written by Daniel Etounga-Manguelle from Cameroon called "Does Africa Need a Cultural Adjustment Program?" CULTURE MATTERS is a collection of essays edited by Lawrence Harrison (Basic Books, 2000) arguing how values shape human progress and determine economy.

Etounga-Manguelle argues that "right to privilege" (p 65), "little enthusiasm for work" due to "weak controls over uncertainty" (p 65), doing "nothing to prepare for the future" (p 66), and "a society in which magic and witchcraft flourish today is ... ruled by tension, fear, and moral disorder" (p.73) all work to undermine Cameroon's economy. Note that all are values-oriented (or lack of, if you prefer).

Mirador's article reminded me more of Haiti than the DR but encourages me to be 110% honest in all financial dealings as I can't encourage politicians to be ethical if I refuse to be.

Thanks to all for your time, Bob
 

Rick Snyder

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Cobraboy it is indeed a vicious circle and it does need to be stopped and for that to happen requires the Dominicans take the ?bull by the horns?. The only problem with that is that the vast majority of the Dominicans have no idea as to how to change the situation much less what the situation really is. As this problem has been going on for the 9 years that I have resided here, and I assume longer, I have talked with many, many Dominicans in the cities concerning the workings of their government, democracies, trade, tourism and a host of other issues. The vast majority of the population have no inkling about the operation of any of the aforementioned subjects and a lot of them don?t want to know. As long as they have food on the table today the future or tomorrow don?t exist in their vocabularies.

The only way that will every change is if Dominicans such as NAL?s and others sacrifice there time and energy in organizing a movement to educate the voting public as to how their country operates and the steps that must be taken to subjugate this vicious circle. It is a known fact that the public, and I suspect private, schools will never teach the population that which should be taught. Therefore for change to take place the burden of teaching rests upon the shoulders of those Dominicans that understand the workings of the world and their country.

There was a time that I believed that with time maybe the Dominicans would learn what was going on as the availability of computers grew. I also remember the numerous times I handed my daily newspaper to some Dominicans when I had finished reading it in the hopes that they would read what was going on in their country and the world. To my amazement the males would 99.9% of the time take the sports section and look at the final scores of the games and disregard the rest of the paper. For a very long time I thought that Dominicans just had no interest in what was happening but that isn?t the problem. Thanks to people like Lesley D and others I learned that the problem is that so many people here just don?t know how to read. It doesn?t take much to understand Tigres de Licey 7 ? Aguilas Cibae?as 6. Give them a story with a few paragraphs and they?re lost.

It is my honest belief that the education system will not get fixed anywhere in the near future so where does that leave the Dominican people. If the government won?t do it then the answer rests within the population. If the majority of the population lack the necessary education to change things then the responsibility rests with those Dominicans that have the education and understanding of how things work and to teach those that don?t know.

I can?t give a guarantee that this scenario will work but anything is better then nothing. It is a proven fact that sitting here complaining about it will accomplish nothing but that for every action there is a reaction.

In my little corner of the world I?ve tried for so long to bring change about but it has always been a contest of how many time I can beat my head up against the wall. It requires a Dominican or Doninicans to do this.

Rick

PS Welcome to DR1 Bob. I'm glad that that DR1 has helped you in your endeavors and I look forward to reading more of your posts.
 

Pana

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To me in order for countries to move up in the world is there #1 natural resource needs to be education and that is the key.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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bobandjudy said:
Hi. First, I thank everyone for your help to us since we arrived in the DR 18 months ago. I enjoy reading dr1.com's posts and I've learned much about the DR from you--keep up the good work!

You'll recall that this thread started with an article from Mirador's post, Why Poor Countries Are Poor, a graphic description of Cameroon's poverty and inefficiency. The book CULTURE MATTERS has a chapter written by Daniel Etounga-Manguelle from Cameroon called "Does Africa Need a Cultural Adjustment Program?" CULTURE MATTERS is a collection of essays edited by Lawrence Harrison (Basic Books, 2000) arguing how values shape human progress and determine economy.

Etounga-Manguelle argues that "right to privilege" (p 65), "little enthusiasm for work" due to "weak controls over uncertainty" (p 65), doing "nothing to prepare for the future" (p 66), and "a society in which magic and witchcraft flourish today is ... ruled by tension, fear, and moral disorder" (p.73) all work to undermine Cameroon's economy. Note that all are values-oriented (or lack of, if you prefer).

Mirador's article reminded me more of Haiti than the DR but encourages me to be 110% honest in all financial dealings as I can't encourage politicians to be ethical if I refuse to be.

Thanks to all for your time, Bob
Ever since I saw an advertisement of this book on the NY Times I have been interested in reading it, but have not had the chance to do so. However, I will purchase the book either today or tomorrow and read it through the weekend.

Although, culture appears to have an influence in economic development of nations, a Peruvian economist by the name of Hernando DeSoto (no, not the explorer ;) ) published "The Other Path: The Economic Answer to Terrorism". Earlier this year I had the honor of attending a speech he was giving regarding the book.

“The Other Path” is an economics book that basically tries to find an answer as to why the developing world suffers the economic problems that developed nations seem to have mastered and also attempts to offer some legitimate ways of fixing these same problems. Among the many problems discussed, the issue of property rights is brought into question by DeSoto, with the assumption that if impoverished city dwellers in developing countries would have property rights, they would be able to improve their chances of achieving a more dignified standards of living and be included in the formal economies, as oppose to being pushed into the informal economy. The informal economy is another issue that is discussed in the book with the regard that informality in developing countries are due to over regulation by developing countries government and too much intervention by the public sector into the private sector. Albeit, it’s not entirely clear if the informal economies exist solely or primarily due to those realities of developing economies, the truth is that those reasons are not helping developing economies gain a winning step towards economic prosperity. DeSoto also tries to put a connection between global terrorism and global poverty in developing nations and attempts to present free market capitalism as the answer to both issues affecting the world, particularly poverty which is often revered as being the breeding ground for terrorist in the modern world. Part of the reasoning behind this notion is in DeSoto’s experience while looking into the guerrilla movement in Peru, which disintegrated greatly the moment free market capitalism began to take root, thus the idea of laissez fare capitalism quenching the growing desires of terrorism and alleviating poverty.

DeSoto's assumptions also expands on the notion that this will work in most societies, irrespective of cultural differences.

Another book that I greatly encourage all DR1ers to read, if they have an interest in economic development, is "The Birth of Plenty: How the Prosperity of the Modern World was Created" by William Berstein. Mr Bernstein takes a look on economic growth in the developed world in a historical context. He claims that in order for successful capitalism to take root, there must be four pillars fully imbedded within a society. These pillars are: 1. Property Rights (surprise surprise), 2. Scientific Rationalisation, 3. Capital Markets, and 4. Transportation and Communications. He insist that nations that wish to become successful simply will have to develop those institutions prior to seeing an increase in national wealth of note, because this is how all wealthy nations of the world have done this through the years.

I tend to agree more with Bernstein than DeSoto, primarily because Bernstein expands on more issues that relate to the economic inefficiencies of countries like the DR, but both are equitably interesting and on the mark as far as I am concerned.

-NALs
 
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cobraboy

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I've read Bernstein. I would agree with him.

Infrastreucture is moot without the human component WANTING wealth...with the necessary realization it takes a LOT of hard work to achieve it.