Ah, things are better. OR ARE THEY?

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Typically Dominicans will always say things are getting worse - even amoung themselves. I asked my wife about that and she says it is normal for Domincians to complain regardless if things are worse or not.

She says quote: "La gente dicen que las cosas estan peores pero yo la veo a la gente mas gorda y colorada" and "Aunques la palma sea mas alta, los puercos comen de ella"
What your wife says is completely true.

Next time a Dominican tell you things are bad, ask him/her if he/she remembers a time when things were good.

Even in the US Dominicans complain. The complaints range from "in this country people live to work like animals" to "Americans are so cold, look how they throw their elderly parents into homes and forget about them and that's what our kids will do to us as they pick up the habits of these gringos" to "the way Americans rear their kids is wrong, a kid needs to be spanked to learn values and the difference between right and wrong, that's why this country's youth is full of shyte" and everything else you could possibly imagine a Dominican complaining about.

Plenty of stereotypes are mixed into the complaints as well as nonesense, but they are there and every Dominican has heared one or two from the mouth of other Dominicans.

I'm convinced that the fatalism present in all Dominicans (I find myself complaining at time for no reason and even when I have nothing to complain about :ermm: ) is a cultural legacy of the past when progressive years were followed by war and destruction. Thus, what's the point of expecting the future to be better than the present when the future almost always ended in social chaos and turmoil.

Of course, the long stretch of stability in the DR has been since the time Trujillo died to today with a few bumps along the way and before that the longest period of stability was the Trujillo dictatorship itself. Prior to that the DR was ravaged by guerrila warfare, periodic foreign invasions, etc.

It's a cultural legacy spread from generation to generation. Children grow up listening to either their parents or acquaintances complain about everything even when things are good that they too learn to expect the future to be worst than the past.

And public opinion in the DR only coincides with the data when the data are negative, when the data are positive the public opinion continues to be pessimistic, at best.

Another reason for the fatalism is the constant comparison (Dominicans refer to each other as comparones for a reason) we make against our acquaintances relative social standing.

For example, if I and a "compadre" are both doing well economically, both have stable families, and both are "moving up in the world", but I move further "up" than my compadre; don't be surprise if my compadre says that his lot has gotten worst, even when in reality it has not.

He is comparing his success against mine and despite the fact that both experienced an increase in well being, my increase which exceeded his causes him to feel as a loser and in the process, he becomes disatisfied with his accomplishments. Ask him if things are good, he's going to say no. Ask him if he was better before, he will say yes because before he and I were on a more "equal" level in well being vs. now. Ask him whose fault is it for his "worsening" condition and he will blame the current political/economic situation.

He will believe that my greater well being is due to connections I might have and he will convince himself (rightfully or not) that my connections are related to the administration in power. Thus, the reason why he didn't do as well as I did has to do with my connections and his connections and if he's to do better than I, then he needs to get the political/economic connections he has in a position to bring him greater success.

That means playing real politik and finding fault in everything an administration in power does in order to use it as a reason for why his "lack" of success is so. His answer to his "problem" is that another politician needs to come in place, preferably a politician whose party he may have some sort of connection to.

Despite all of that, few people truly want the old times to become a reality again. Everybody knows things are better today than ever.

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Just to assist RS on his quest to get 'A certain influential & politically responsible person' embroiled in this debate, I will have to say to you .................

"You can't go saying things like THAT Lambada, it flies in the face of everything we are being told by NALs"!! HE tells us that the country is much better off now than it was when Leonel & his friends with itchy (for money) palms came to power!! Surely NALs wouldn't try to spin this board ......... would he??

Mind you, I do note he is keeping a pretty low profile right now ~ Grahame.
Discussing the same crap over and over again becomes tiresome after a while.

Do a quick search and you will notice how many times this topic has been debated.

And everyone's opinion about this topic remains pretty much the same in each debate!

It's obvious people know where I stand in these issues which leaves me wondering: Why do people want for me to repeat to them the samething I've said in every other debate concerning this topic before?

-NALs
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Ahhhh, history as it relates to the DR and that which the government did or didn?t do in order to facilitate the betterment of the average Dominican. Isn?t there a song with that title?????

It reminds me of how back in the early 60?s the excessive erosion of the soil, caused mainly by the rains and in part by the clean cultivation of steeply sloping areas of the catchment basins, has resulted in obstruction of the country?s major irrigation canals. What did the government do to counter these problems? First, a decree was passed which permitted the cutting of only damaged or sick trees in the forests. Thereafter, the rash of forest-fire outbreaks was so great that the law probably did more harm than good. Consequently, a law was passed prohibiting the export of timber. Again the rush to the hills was accelerated. The timber cutters were anxious to cut and stockpile as much lumber as possible before other laws were passed which would more radically affect their livelihood. Ironically, when hurricane Inez cut a swatch across the Barahona peninsula in December 1966, it knocked down a large timber stand which included many almacigo (Bursera simarubd) trees. This particular wood is flavorless and was in high demand in the U.S. for the packing of cheese and other food products. Furthermore, the trees already knocked down by the storm were accessible and could be cut by the farmers of the area affected by the storm. Through the aid of a relief program (not the government), several hundred crosscut saws were rushed to the area. But, unfortunately, by law, these damaged and drying trees could not be utilized due to the prohibition on the export of timber! By the time the laws were modified making the hurricane-affected area an exception, insects had infested the woods.

The history books are chock full of such classic examples of the Dominican leaders minds being geared for self fulfillment without thought for the average Dominican. Is it no surprise that the average Dominican would have a fatalistic view when led by such morons? The present problems today are due to the fact that these same morons or the sons and daughters and friends of them are the present law makers.

Now let?s see, ?when the future almost always ended in social chaos and turmoil?. Brought on by whom? Ah, the leaders due to their outstanding leadership and thought processes! ? ?It's a cultural legacy spread from generation to generation?. And this legacy was instilled by whom? Ah, the leaders due to their outstanding leadership and thought processes! ? ?even when things are good?, this statement has never existed from everything I have read and seen and doesn?t exist today except for about 11% of the population (the rich). ? ?Discussing the same crap over and over again becomes tiresome after a while?, now this statement is very true and is reinforced by the fact that the person stating such is the same person that tries to dazzle us with fancy foot work with the computer keyboard. ? ?Why do people want for me to repeat to them the samething I've said in every other debate concerning this topic before??, and this stupid statement deserves no comment! It is the continued proclamations that the situation seen by only 11% (the rich) of the population is representative of the whole Dominican Republic that has the tendency to set me off. Due to the simple fact that I live it, see it, read about it and hear it 24/7 that I figure there might be some or a lot of truth to that which I and others in the same position try to convey.

Rick
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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It was during a conversation concerning the topic of idiots this morning that I referenced a person to a portion of post #41 whereas it said, ?Everybody knows things are better today than ever?. We then went into a medley of the malaise that seems to be prevalent in the Dominican society and looked back at the history of the country. While examining the historical make-up of this country which has been dominated over the years with so many transgressions against the people as a whole I compare it to other sectors of the world as to what is and has happened. An ever present resounding of the phrase ?basic human rights? keeps being repeated in all corners of the world to include here in the DR.

It is the basic human rights that seem to have played such an important part in the forming of so many nations and their collapse as well. It appears that when societies are introduced to, and form an expectance of certain rights that a state runs afoul with its people if it fails to adhere to that which is expected or outlaws such.

In the short time that I have lived here I have seen a marked improvement in the increase of many basic human rights along with the publication of these rights in all aspects of the media coupled with the passage of laws that expand different segments of those rights. Of course it?s the ability of the state to insure that those rights are upheld that seem to determine in which direction a state takes in its continued ability to exist. All of which reminds me of what American Justice Davis Davis said in 1867 when he stated, "By the protection of the law, human rights are secured; withdraw that protection and they are at the mercy of wicked rulers or the clamor of an excited people." It is the establishment of these rights and the lack of enforcement or withdrawal of same that seems to bring on a ?clamor of an excited people?.

From other areas of the world such as Pakistan, Pakistan's suspended chief judge Iftikhar Chaudhry said, ?Nations and states which are based on dictatorship instead of the supremacy of the constitution, the rule of law and protection of basic rights get destroyed?. I?m not saying that the DR is a dictatorship but its history of failing to uphold the supremacy of the constitution, the rule of law and protection of basic rights could very well eventually lead to a ?clamor of an excited people?.

When looking at this country I call home I am continuously reminded of that which I have been exposed to around the world both in developed and undeveloped countries. With all the help that is provided by so many ONG?s around the world and if a state truly acts in a fashion to supply basic rights to its citizens then there is no just reason that those citizens should be crying for those rights and services that are expected. All of which brings up another quote which was made by Hubert Humphrey;

"The moral test of a society is how that society treats those who are in the dawn of life -- the children, those who are in the twilight of life -- the elderly, and those who are in the shadow of life -- the sick, the needy and the handicapped."

The DR is not a ?new? country as it relates to that which should be available to its citizens. It has had more then enough time to insure that all segments of its society have such things as running water and decent education along with a health system to provide to all its citizens among others things. The daily exposure to so many projects that were started and never finished, and also have nothing to do with basic services, never cease to amaze me which is compounded by the estimation of how much money went into that which was never completed. The same holds true to buildings that were completed and have throughout the years have stood idle rather then being used as even a temporary school or medical clinic. Even here in my little town of El Seybo we have cases of both and I see and read about them in other sections of the country almost daily.

As long as the health and welfare of a society is continued to be placed below the desires of a few then the country will fail to prosper as a whole and through time nobody should be surprised if there should be a ?clamor of an excited people?.

Rick
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Are Dominicans better off???????????

By any chance was this article seen? Who says you can?t make a decent living in this country????

Rick
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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On a leisurely stroll through the news today the statement by our 'wann-be' expert that everything here is 'peachy keen' just made me take some mental notes.

Yes, without a doubt it?s nice, in a country that has an average salary of roughly 6,000 pesos a month, to see examples like this whereas the government is caring about the well being of its citizens.

And the thought of the simplistic honesty of the Dominican politicians which would allow Dominicans to sleep at night knowing that their welfare is being upheld.

Switching to another example of citizens wellbeing is that being provided by proper spending of their tax dollars. The thought that money is being well spent in the construction of those projects that some Dominicans feel must be replaced as the older one didn?t feel right or something of that nature is commendable?????

Rick
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
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I can see how if you live in certain parts of the capital you might just think that things are better - but venture out of your cocoon and things are not so good. I just spent three days in the south west, and power cuts were the rule rather than the exception in the main cities I visited - Azua, Barahona and San Juan. The rural poverty and neglect in parts of those three provinces has to be seen to be believed.

On the positive side, the south west is always a joy to visit because of the general cleanliness of its towns and communities, the unspoiled beauty of the landscape, and the exceptionally warm and welcoming local people.
 

Funnyyale26

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Dec 15, 2006
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Rick...you should become a Dominican citizen and run for office. Make a reality everything you wish for the Dominican people.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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We went to Jarabacoa not long ago and there's a wonderful coffee plant nearby that is totally in to the organic raising of the coffee and processing of the beans. Remarkable as nothing goes to waste, they use EVERY part of the plant from the bean pod for fuel to the ashes to clean the water before it goes back in the river.
Chris said:
Are you referring to Villa Alta Gracia? Julia Alvarez's coffee farm?
That plant is Monte Alto. It belongs to close relatives of my fiance, Alida. They do a fine job with all their coffees, not just the organic. Alida's family has been involved in growing some of the best coffee produced in the country for over 60 years.
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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You got rebuked the other day?;) ;)

I get rebuked every time the 'wanna-be' expert posts!:bunny: :bunny:

Nice to see that everything is coming up roses. NOT!:ermm: :ermm:
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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The original statement and the response by Mirador I will not touch with a ten foot pole.

Bob, let it dwell in your mind, travel around from side to side, overwhelm and consume you .............;) ;) ;) ;)
 

mariaobetsanov

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Jan 2, 2002
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They are better if you got a spoil-system job or a macuto ...... If you are an average joe.. that have to live by the sweat of your brows... you work to just be able to eat. Most Dominican can only eat... like those on the freeway exist will work for food..sometimes this individual have and maintain a high standard of living and will fight to maintain their spot. is the coming road sign here.