L L

[2LeftFeet]

I know in different countries it's pronounced differently. In the DR it's pronounced as a "j". Is it pronounced that way always? For every word or will it sometimes sound like a y?

Think about the following words and how would you pronounce them?

La Ballena?

La Estampilla?

These 2 words I've pronounced with the "j" sound. I've been either corrected or not understood.

I was buying stamps for my postcards. The woman had no idea what I said. I finally el timbre and she understood me. Someone else told me estampi- ya-.


Dime !!

 

[Norma Rosa]

I know in different countries it's pronounced differently. In the DR it's pronounced as a "j". Is it pronounced that way always? For every word or will it sometimes sound like a y?

Think about the following words and how would you pronounce them?

La Ballena?

La Estampilla?

These 2 words I've pronounced with the "j" sound. I've been either corrected or not understood.

I was buying stamps for my postcards. The woman had no idea what I said. I finally el timbre and she understood me. Someone else told me estampi- ya-.
Dime !!

1
In inter vocalic position (estampilla, ballena) the sound is that of the English "y": estampiya, bayena

2
In initial position and after a nasal consonant the sound resembles that of the English "j" as in John:
ll?mame (j?mame), con yuca (con juca)

However:
Avoid the "j" sound regardless of its position. Most Latin-American cities are ye?stas (not je?stas).

Ye?smo: Consists in the elimination of the phonologic opposition between "Ll" and "y" in favor of the second.

Norma

 

[azabache]

I know in different countries it's pronounced differently. In the DR it's pronounced as a "j". Is it pronounced that way always? For every word or will it sometimes sound like a y?

Think about the following words and how would you pronounce them?

La Ballena?

La Estampilla?

These 2 words I've pronounced with the "j" sound. I've been either corrected or not understood.

I was buying stamps for my postcards. The woman had no idea what I said. I finally el timbre and she understood me. Someone else told me estampi- ya-.


Dime !!

Norma is right about the correct pronunciation of the double L.

In Carribean countries the common word for stamp is sello. Estampilla is more common in Mexico. The lady who was selling the stamps might have been confused by both your choice of word, and the way you pronounced it.
Either that, or she was just being an a$$hole, pretending not to understand until you pronounced the word perfectly.

BTW, In Argentina and Uruguay the LL has the sound of zha...as in Zha Zha Gabor

 

[2LeftFeet]

AAAAHHH----It's so difficult. Learning Spanish and hearing so many different pronunciations -- good Spanish and bad Spanish--- correct Spanish and incorrect Spanish----

I know about the zha-- my teacher is from Buenos Aires. She doesn't speak that way to me though. She doesn't want to teach me that.

That's all I need to mix that in too. Then I'll sound really bizarre. Some "j" some "y" and some "Zha"

Living in NYC I am so used to hearing the "j" the "y" sounds odd to me. So flat.

Very interesting.

Thanks. I will now have to unlearn my "bad mistakes"

 

[Rocky]

In the DR it's pronounced as a "j". Is it pronounced that way always? For every word or will it sometimes sound like a y?

It is pronounced both ways, depending on the word, and there is no rule to follow.
The only way to know for how to pronounce the LL in a word, is to learn from others.

 

[Chip]

9 times out of 10 the "j" or "y" English sounds can be used for the Spanish sounds "y" and "ll" interchangeably.

The fact is most Dominicans and other Hispanics do not distinguish a difference between the two - for this reason it is very common for them to say "jellow" and "jes" and even though you politely tell them a dozen times that it is "yellow" and "yes" they have a difficulty picking up on the phonetic difference and continue to pronounce it with the "j".

 

[Norma Rosa]

AAAAHHH----It's so difficult. Learning Spanish and hearing so many different pronunciations -- good Spanish and bad Spanish--- correct Spanish and incorrect Spanish----

Living in NYC I am so used to hearing the "j" the "y" sounds odd to me. So flat.

Very interesting.

Thanks. I will now have to unlearn my "bad mistakes"

Still, phonetically speaking, Spanish is much less complicated than English.
If you are already used to the sound "j", just try to soften it, so that you are understood by everyone. Avoid the fricative English sound as in "Jump, John!"
When one says those English words, there is an audible, constrained rush of air in the pronunciation of the "j". Try not to do that in Spanish.

Keep learning.

 

[Norma Rosa]

It is pronounced both ways, depending on the word, and there is no rule to follow.
The only way to know for how to pronounce the LL in a word, is to learn from others.

Yes, there is a rule to follow. Read my post #2.

But, as I stated in that post, the best thing to do is to treat it as a "y" so that you are understood by everyone, not just Dominicans.

Norma

 

[Rocky]

Yes, there is a rule to follow. Read my post #2.

But, as I stated in that post, the best thing to do is to treat it as a "y" so that you are understood by everyone, not just Dominicans.

Norma

I was not referring to that rule.
I was refering to how they might pronounce a word like "llibre" with a heavy "J", yet "llantas" or "llamar" is pronounced more with a "Y".
Both are at the beginning of a word, yet are pronounced quite differently, here in the DR.
For that there is no rule except to listen and learn.

 

[montreal]

Argentinians, will pronouce the ll like a j in any place in the word. Beginning or middle. It's also not just in some words like Dominicans, but all.
In my experience, I find the latin youth in in Canada and US pronouce the j more that their parents generations. Especially the DomYork types (Not trying to be prejudice....I am generalizing)

 

[M.A.R.]

Argentinians, will pronouce the ll like a j in any place in the word. Beginning or middle. It's also not just in some words like Dominicans, but all.
In my experience, I find the latin youth in in Canada and US pronouce the j more that their parents generations. Especially the DomYork types (Not trying to be prejudice....I am generalizing)

Actually I think the Argentinians pronouce with an "SH" sound
lluvia - shoovia
cabello - cabesho

 

[2LeftFeet]

It is a ZHA. I was tormented during my lesson tonight. My teacher spoke in "Argentinan" all night. I had to really pay attention.

Zho---yo

tuzhyo---tuyo

zhebar--- llevar

 

[Marianopolita]

Buenos Aires-

2LF-

To my knowledge this phonetic speech variety associated with Spanish spoken in Argentina is only specific to Buenos Aires. The /zh/ phonetic sound associated with words that have /ll/ and /y/ is only heard in Buenos Aires. That?s how among Argentineans themselves they can differentiate people from the capital vs. other parts of the country. Linguistic studies indicate that it?s a phonetic feature acquired in Argentina?s vernacular due to the foreigners who came to Argentina many centuries ago specifically Italy.

2LF, may I suggest not focusing on your teacher?s phonetic pronunciation. Just as there are many speech varieties of Spanish spoken in the Americas, just add this one to the list. You should not have difficulty understanding her because you know what the phonetic variation is and it?s consistent unlike many other Spanish varieties spoken in Latin America.

If you watch the news in Spanish specifically Univision and Cnn en espa?ol they have some reporters from Argentina. I suggest you listen to the way they speak and compare. Enrique Gratas, who does the 11:30PM news daily during the week on Univision is from Argentina, but I don?t think he?s from Buenos Aires because I have never heard him use the Buenos Aires phonetic /zh/. However, if you listen to Viviana Fern?ndez and Guillermo Arduino of Cnn en espa?ol they both of have the classic bonarense accent. Guillermo even says his name as soy Guizhermo Arduino. It?s just a matter of getting your ear tuned to yet another spoken variety of Spanish in Latin America.


Have a great day!


-LDG.

 

[montreal]

I think it mix between a j and zh. It's a particular sound that I cannot imagine how to spell...I know Argentinians not from BA that pronounces it like this(???). I have to say even though they pronounce ll irregularly, Argentinians a a whole speak very well. Although many nouns in Argentina differ from the proper spanish word (palta, ananas....) This throws me off when speaking with Argentinians or watching Argentinian TV.

Lesley, you've picked my curiousity about where in Argentina they use the j or zh... I will inform myself with some Argentinians.

 

[Marianopolita]

montreal-

I agree with you 100% regarding Spanish spoken in Argentina. In general terms it's very good Spanish grammatically, phonetically different because of the /zh/ and lexically (vocabulary) different sometimes but that is not exclusive to Argentina. In Spanish in general word variety is very extensive and in many cases simply looking in a dictionary to find a word is difficult because of the choice. The standard word vs. the regional word vs. sometimes a more specific lexicon that is used in certain scenarios can leave you puzzled. One aspect you will note is that word choice in Argentina is similar to other countries in the R?o de la Plata region aka the southern cone which includes Uruguay, Paraguay and Chile. One other aspect you have to take into consideration is that Argentina has a very large population (over thirty-five million), more than one linguistic zone within country, therefore it is inevitable that vocabulary will vary within the country and as compared to other Spanish-speaking ones.

The examples you gave are of fruits so that's normal in Spanish to have variations however, anan? IMO is very specific to that region. In Latin America you will not hear anan? out of the blue. The standard word is pi?a. I would also say that many Spanish speakers probably have never even heard the word. However, I see this as typical example of word choice associated with the region. As you and I know in French ananas= pineapple (even in Quebec) therefore, possibly the European influence in that region is a result of the word choice in Spanish in Argentina.

Let us know what you find out regarding the /j/ and /zh/ for your own curiosity. I am quite sure it's a phonetic feature of Spanish spoken in Buenos Aires. If you have the opportunity to speak to some old school Argentineans about Spanish most will say that Spanish in Argentina and South America in general is changing for the worse and my response to them is always, it's not as bad as the Caribbean or Spanish spoken in the USA. Location may play a role in this in that Argentina is so far removed from other Spanish-speaking countries that have inevitably been influenced by English and other social dynamics as they relate to language.

BTW- Argentinian or Argentinean are both accepted orthographical forms of the adjective.


Chao

-LDG.

 

[rolfdog]

Argentinians, and other regions, are known also for their use of the voseo, and its particular second person singular indicative conjugation. I heard it all the time on a recent trip to buenos aires. Though they know the traditional "tu"
conjugation, they'll playfully use vos with you and wait for your confused look!! I know Lesley doesn't find it very interesting, but I find it an exciting aspect of this rich language. Perhaps a review of the voseo might interest some DR1 members. I am going to Honduras in September and will be listening for it.

Steve

 

[Marianopolita]

Steve-

Allow me to clarify that very misleading statement. It's not that I don't find it interesting. What I find strange is if someone who is learning Spanish would also try to learn the voseo forms. It's not considered a standard and Spanish speakers who speak using voseo forms don't expect someone who is learning to know the verb conjugations etc. Are you forgetting who the author of this thread is?

http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/52057-el-voseo-rioplatense.html

Anyway this is not the topic of thread and I think the /j/ and /ll/ is a good one on its own.

I would like to hear about your trip to Honduras. Please send me a PM.


-LDG.

 

[rolfdog]

Thanks for the very informative link. I agree, voseo is an extracurricular study if one is interested and one can travel anywhere in the spanish speaking world and not have to know vos conjugations. I agree the imperative forms really throw me off as well.

Thanks, I'll send a post card from Honduras.

Steve

 

[montreal]

I agree Lesley, there is a very different, large european influence on Argentina.

 

[Marianopolita]

montreal-

It's all in the history which clearly tells the story of why there's such diversity when it comes to Spanish spoken in Latin America. Basic knowledge of Latin America history facilitates one's understanding of the linguistic diversity within LA. To discuss it minimally here would do know justice to the Spanish language itself. In broad terms, I am one who believes that Spanish is Spanish regardless where it is spoken. However, it would be illogical not to acknowledge, recognize and understand that linguistic variety exists within the Spanish language. IMO, anyone who does not realize this simply has not had enough exposure to the language on the whole. For Spanish in Latin America to sound like Spanish in Spain is impossible. Two key reasons are: ancestral history and the various indigenous languages that came into contact with Spanish at the start of colonization.

Argentina is definitely one of the countries that are singularized in linguistic studies because of the phonetic aspect of /ll/ and its lexcion which at times can greatly differ from other Spanish-speaking countries as referenced in your examples. However, lexical differences regarding Spanish spoken in Argentina at times are just based on personal preferences of the speaker. I always remember a conversation I had once with an older Argentinean lady (old school Spanish completely). I used the word la balacera and she corrected me and said no el tiroteo and I asked her why the word choice preference, it means the same. IMO, simply she did not like the sound of it and I knew why. La balacera is used more in the Caribbean and maybe she had regional preferences.

In general terms though Argentina is a good place to learn and speak Spanish if you are one who desires to speak well. My opinion of course.


Salut


-LDG.