Expat bubbles

[miguel]

No es tam dificil....

Good points Miguel. What can I say, we have a difficult marriage at times. If you read some of my earlier posts I came back to the DR for one reason, to save my marriage. My wife had a very difficult time in adapting to the US. For example, she would never be on time for medical appts and since I was the one who would take her I inevitably lost time at work that I had to make up, only to be castigated by my wife for working too much. Also, we almost got a divorce over the fact that I told my wife that our 3 yr old. daughter had to be in bed by 11 pm on school nights - don't laugh please -she told me that our daughter should go to sleep when "le daba la gana".

I realize now my wife has depression, even though I can't get her to go to a counselor or a doctor. As far as the stuff I have said about her it is true, unfortunately, but I have hope. If I didn't I wouldn't have left my country of birth to do whatever it takes to make our marriage better.

Sorry to the op but I thought this deserved a response. I think future question would be better served by a pm or phone call.

Well, Chip, ther will be no PM or phone call from but since I don't want to keep hijacking this thread, I WILL answer your post on your thread.

"See" you there.....

 

[SantiagoDR]

nice post DON....My ass.

Don, you are offended by my comments because you are a typical gringo that I describe in my posts. You have done exactly what others do so why are you so shocked to see what I have to say about you?
AZB

I am not shocked at that. I expected no less. Other friends of yours should take note here, don't disagree with anything he saids, else he will tell you how he REALLY FEELS about you.

He is a big defender of poor and blacks yet I bet he didn't know a single black person in his own redneck town when he was living in USA.

You lose......

Sorry to disappoint you on that one. I dated blacks and whites, even had a "black" one living with me in an ALL white neighborhood. Sold my house to my Jamaican girlfriend's brother because we were friends. Even to this day, we stay with her family if we need to spend the night in that town. Been to Jamaica about 15 times, very often with my Jamaican girlfriend. Even went to the beach in Kingston and I was the ONLY white person there. And you imply that ALL towns in the U.S. are redneck, you just can't stay away from being prejudice.

By the way, you wife is a wonderful person.

I am shocked that you actually complimented my poor barrio wife, which btw, I did not meet in the barrio, but in Santiago. She hates using my money, I don't want her to work, but she wants to, so she does when in the states. See, all barrio people are not the same, give them a chance, they may surprise you.

I also do not have a problem with or give a R/A what you want in YOUR life.
That is not the problem.

The problem is:
You constantly put down most gringos, expats(Usually us American ones only, as you specify that) and poor Dominicans on a public forum. If that is how bigotry you are, so be it, don't keep airing it in public. Joking around is part of life, you go way beyond that.

You don't have to keep telling us how prejudice you are, we all know the mentality of your mind. You put others down and then get pi$$ed when others call you on it. In defense you try to change the focus from yourself by answering back putting down others (again). Is that what your UPPER class is all about? As it has been said before, IT'S GETTING OLD!

Before my first trip to the DR I signed up for and went to Spanish classes. Since then I have tried very hard to pick up Spanish, I have bought many books, CD's, even a second Spanish class, etc. I just have a problem in learning Spanish. So, call me dumb. But as stated before, I still try.

Yes, I hate not being able to understand conversations around me and to me. I would love to be able to understand the language better. The point is, I don't let that stop me from being here.

So I don't like Dominican food, so what?
I probably don't like Pakistani food either.

I do like Italian food, Chinese :chinese: food, Mexican burritos, Dominican fried chicken, Canadian bacon, etc.

.... and,

I stayed at a Holiday Inn once, and also saved a ton of money switching to Geico.

PS: I don't need to explain anything to you, but I was in a compassionate mood having just come back from the ghettos. :bunny:

 

[Chip]

Don

Let me first of all apologize for ribbing you about not learning Spanish well - I can see that some people have the knack for it and others no (like my wife with English). However, I have personally noticed, that in spite of that, you have somehow advanced it to a level to be able to integrate yourself into the community here. Everytime I call you you are out and about with your friends.

You really make some good points - I somehow think though that the damn internet is partly to blame - it is can be too easy to come off as harsh and impersonal at times and I know I have been guilty of that too. I think AZB gets on a roll with his spiel and can't help himself, he is more of a ham than anything. Nonetheless, he should think about where to draw the line at times, because the fact is if people are happy in their situation, one should let them be and not belittle them.

 

[Chris]

Get back to the topic now!

 

[jackquontee]

Back in the trenches again

I normally don't post but, every now and then, there is a thread that just drags me into the fray, and this issue is one that is always dear to my heart.

I won't go on a long diatribe as I think there is enough that's been said already. So, I will just express my 2 cents by saying that I've always found it odd whenever anyone thinks so highly of themselves for being able to "successfully" function in what is essentially a dysfunctional environment.

I'm impressed when you can excel beyond those who have had greater advantages and opportunities than yourself, not when you can stand on top of those who haven't.

 

[Chris]

So, I will just express my 2 cents by saying that I've always found it odd whenever anyone thinks so highly of themselves for being able to "successfully" function in what is essentially a dysfunctional environment.

Chiri's premise is that the Dominican society overall is big enough and varied enough where subcultures develop, exist and function in a sane and rational manner.

AZB's premise is that one needs to find the subculture where you are not 'forced' into dysfunction, but can enjoy healthy function. To do this, you need to understand your environment and learn about it.

This keeps reminding me of Hillbilly's three rules for a successful cross-cultural relationship - it stands equally for one's function in society as well and does not automatically mean that one is disrespectful of people that have less, or live in a different manner. It simply means that birds of a feather flock together. So, if you want to live successfully in a culture outside of your own, find a flock where you are comfortable.

 

[miguel]

No tiene nada malo....

It simply means that birds of a feather flock together. So, if you want to live successfully in a culture outside of your own, find a flock where you are comfortable.

.....And there's NOTHING wrong with that, whether we agree with it or NOT!!.

In my case, I have a lot of "feathers" to share with just about EVERYBODY!......

Nuff said!.

 

[jackquontee]

Chiri's premise is that the Dominican society overall is big enough and varied enough where subcultures develop, exist and function in a sane and rational manner.

AZB's premise is that one needs to find the subculture where you are not 'forced' into dysfunction, but can enjoy healthy function. To do this, you need to understand your environment and learn about it.

This keeps reminding me of Hillbilly's three rules for a successful cross-cultural relationship - it stands equally for one's function in society as well and does not automatically mean that one is disrespectful of people that have less, or live in a different manner. It simply means that birds of a feather flock together. So, if you want to live successfully in a culture outside of your own, find a flock where you are comfortable.

I understand (or at least I think I do) what the posters are saying. But, when one needs to consistently stand on the mountaintop and proclaim ones level of status and importance above all others, well........it makes me question how secure one really feels about his/her perceived place within their own status quo.

For those of us who have been fortunate enough to have been born in a place where education and opportunities abound, we should just consider ourselves extremely lucky. Otherwise, but for the grace of God there go I. I don't see the poor of the Dominican Republic as being less than myself, but less fortunate.

I also perfectly understand the whole premise of birds of a feather flocking together. It is for that very reason that I prefer to associate with those who do not criticize people simply because they have been less fortunate than myself.

 

[Chris]

In my case, I have a lot of "feathers" to share with just about EVERYBODY!......

Sure, but you choose the feathers that you're going to marry, carefully :laugh: And in the end, I'd like to come back to a group that has wider interests. Not group think or any of that stuff, but people that can talk about more than how many tires they changed that day Although it is nice to know, and I have no problem with the tire changers, and I enjoy the conversation immensely, I'd also like to hear something about, uhm ... what the World Bank and the IMF have to say about agriculture. (Btw, these two august bodies are changing their tune about development radically as we speak! - they're becoming tree huggers!) Or how people are looking at the effects of current happenings on the world economy. Or what would you do if you had a stack of oil stocks. Or what really is successful community development. Or Georgia O'Keefe's life. Or the Dame La Mano documentary. Or Mr C's latest photos (his photos always make me cry - I just sit and look and cry very happily!) ... or or or .. Not just the price of rice and Presidente and the latest telenovella and the drama of the neighbor's love triangle. If I was constrained to the gomas, the telenovela, the love triangle, the price of rice and Presidente, I'd go quietly insane!

If I was living in my own culture and environment, it would be easy to find like-minded people. In another culture and environment, one has to work at it. Perhaps a little work and a lot of luck and you can have the best of both worlds.

 

[Chirimoya]

I understand (or at least I think I do) what the posters are saying. But, when one needs to consistently stand on the mountaintop and proclaim ones level of status and importance above all others, well........it makes me question how secure one really feels about his/her perceived place within their own status quo.

For those of us who have been fortunate enough to have been born in a place where education and opportunities abound, we should just consider ourselves extremely lucky. Otherwise, but for the grace of God there go I. I don't see the poor of the Dominican Republic as being less than myself, but less fortunate.

I also perfectly understand the whole premise of birds of a feather flocking together. It is for that very reason that I prefer to associate with those who do not criticize people simply because they have been less fortunate than myself.

I agree with you, I think.
The purpose of this thread was to avoid precisely that, by pointing out that there are additional dimensions to Dominican society that many posters are unaware of, instead of descending into the usual slanging matches about what constitutes "real Dominicans".

 

[Lambada]

If I was constrained to the gomas, the telenovela, the love triangle, the price of rice and Presidente, I'd go quietly insane!

If I was living in my own culture and environment, it would be easy to find like-minded people. In another culture and environment, one has to work at it. Perhaps a little work and a lot of luck and you can have the best of both worlds.

But if one's intellectual stimulation comes from inside one's own head or by setting oneself challenges to meet then one has less need for others. Regardless of what socio-cerebro economic grouping they adhere to. I agree with Chiri: Dominican society has wide and varied dimensions. But for new expats for whom it takes time to discover these dimensions, how's about relying on oneself?

If one makes oneself an 'interesting person', other interesting people find you.

 

[miguel]

Lo mismo.......

Sure, but you choose the feathers that you're going to marry, carefully :laugh: And in the end, I'd like to come back to a group that has wider interests. Not group think or any of that stuff, but people that can talk about more than how many tires they changed that day Although it is nice to know, and I have no problem with the tire changers, and I enjoy the conversation immensely, I'd also like to hear something about, uhm ... what the World Bank and the IMF have to say about agriculture. (Btw, these two august bodies are changing their tune about development radically as we speak! - they're becoming tree huggers!) Or how people are looking at the effects of current happenings on the world economy. Or what would you do if you had a stack of oil stocks. Or what really is successful community development. Or Georgia O'Keefe's life. Or the Dame La Mano documentary. Or Mr C's latest photos (his photos always make me cry - I just sit and look and cry very happily!) ... or or or .. Not just the price of rice and Presidente and the latest telenovella and the drama of the neighbor's love triangle. If I was constrained to the gomas, the telenovela, the love triangle, the price of rice and Presidente, I'd go quietly insane!

If I was living in my own culture and environment, it would be easy to find like-minded people. In another culture and environment, one has to work at it. Perhaps a little work and a lot of luck and you can have the best of both worlds.

Christa, I know you are a smart cookie, so I will just write one sentence from my post you quoted and I have faith that you WILL see that you are saying exactly what I said:

"just about EVERYBODY".

Key word: "JUST".

Now, if you want me to explain further, PLEEEEEEESE let me know as DR1 is a little slow today and I am dying to post one of my LOOOOONG posts.

Crap, I will even give you examples on how I deal with my friends who have different "feathers".

Listen, there's a reason why I am, in REAL life, loved by all "feathers". Hard to believe but soooooo darn true.

Please, dare me to post. Wahahahaha!!.

 

[Chris]

I don't see the poor of the Dominican Republic as being less than myself, but less fortunate.

I don't see the poor of the Dominican Republic as anything but poor. It is what it is. If I have to see anyone as less fortune, I must by definition make a value judgement as to what 'less or more fortunate' means. I prefer to stay clear of those kinds of value judgements and stay simple. I don't think anyone else is 'less' than I am, or for that matter, 'more' than I am.

 

[Chirimoya]

It's a bit like sex! There's only so much you can get from solitary reading, what about interaction and exchange of ideas?

I've experienced withdrawal symptoms due to being deprived of mental stimulation - both living in small-town DR and living amongst la gente plastica in Caracas - both intellectual deserts in very different ways - and what happens is that when you do meet someone you click with and can have an intelligent conversation with is like a deluge - on one occasion I am sure the person I was talking to must have thought I was totally manic!

Now this was pre-internet. Maybe we can satisfy our cravings a little more effectively now on internet message boards, but when it comes to it, there's nothing like real life human interaction.

 

[Chip]

It's a bit like sex! There's only so much you can get from solitary reading, what about interaction and exchange of ideas?

I've experienced withdrawal symptoms due to being deprived of mental stimulation - both living in small-town DR and living amongst la gente plastica in Caracas - both intellectual deserts in very different ways - and what happens is that when you do meet someone you click with and can have an intelligent conversation with is like a deluge - on one occasion I am sure the person I was talking to must have thought I was totally manic!

Now this was pre-internet. Maybe we can satisfy our cravings a little more effectively now on internet message boards, but when it comes to it, there's nothing like real life human interaction.

I know exactly what you mean. fortunately I have a good friend from Ecuador who lives here and has common interests and loves to talk about all sorts of stuff. On top of that he is a riot too.

Speaking of bubbles... I just noticed another father at my daughter's school today dressed just like myself, clean jeans a tshirt and a cap, albeit with a very expensive watch and very nice shoes. Hey, maybe I've started a fashion trend, or maybe just a new "bubble", haha.

Also as the other thread was "serviced" by the "the hammer", I would like to explain that my daughter requires that I bring her in to class everyday by hand, I can't just drop her off, and that I eat lunch with her. She had been happy riding the moto up until just recently - and she uses a helmet.

 

[miguel]

Ya, por piedad..

Also as the other thread was "serviced" by the "the hammer", I would like to explain that my daughter requires that I bring her in to class everyday by hand, I can't just drop her off, and that I eat lunch with her. She had been happy riding the moto up until just recently - and she uses a helmet.

A little advice for you, buddy, stop it already.

You already made up your mind so why try and open another can of worms?.

You are set on YOUR ways and no matter what SOME of us say, YOU will NOT see things the way SOME of us do.

The thing is that whether we agree with you or not, we like you just the way you are.

Well, let me speak for myself: I like you the way you are.

Crap, I hope I didn't sound gay, whaha....

Back to topic......

"'Bubbles' are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna 'select'"...

 

[Chris]

.... but when it comes to it, there's nothing like real life human interaction.

Yes!

The energy that one gets from interaction with a social grouping, is completely different from being energized through self-reliance. Both are necessary methinks. Expats need to find their feet in a new social grouping. We are social animals I think. The barrio syndrome that AZB talks about often comes into play when expats do not find their social feet - they only know the barrio and they become convinced that this is the only life that exists in the DR. Despite our general discomfort with the way that AZB says it, he has been consistent in saying that there is more in the DR than the barrio. He also says consistently that if one only looks at barrio life, you are not seeing the DR fully. See some other bubbles, find some more feathers. They are there!

I don't think it is necessary to sell out one's own values to find a social grouping that brings about a sense of belonging. Sometimes some compromise is necessary simply to fit into society and not become an outcast. One has to work a little in becoming a functioning expat.

 

[AZB]

Expats need to find their feet in a new social grouping. We are social animals I think. The barrio syndrome that AZB talks about often comes into play when expats do not find their social feet - they only know the barrio and they become convinced that this is the only life that exists in the DR. Despite our general discomfort with the way that AZB says it, he has been consistent in saying that there is more in the DR than the barrio. He also says consistently that if one only looks at barrio life, you are not seeing the DR fully. See some other bubbles, find some more feathers. They are there!.

I wish other people could see this the same way as you do. This is precisely my main message to people, but unfortunately, I lack the writing skill and elegance that chris possesses. Its just people twist and turn my words to transform me into some racist monster yet totally losing my message in translation.
Then again, who are the people who get offended by my posts?
Like we say, if the show fits....
AZB

 

[Chip]

I lack the writing skill and elegance ... Like we say, if the show fits....
AZB

You couldn't have said it any better, I think you mean "shoe" btw.

Also, I don't think you are a racist, a classist yes, racist no. If anything you're a "ham", and of course I mean that in the halal sense of the word.

 

[AZB]

You couldn't have said it any better, I think you mean "shoe" btw.

Also, I don't think you are a racist, a classist yes, racist no. If anything you're a "ham", and of course I mean that in the halal sense of the word.

LOL, now that was funny.
AZB