How can Haiti develop?

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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i spoke also with someone else with a lot of experience in PAP right now and they also confirmed its safe if you stay in the safe zones.

question for anyone: i'm interested in trying to understand better what specifically is working in Haiti to develop the country. Given this graph, most NGO investment is not working over the past 40+ years. Any suggestions on what I should look at that is really getting results?

haiti.png
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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They need infrastructure and an aggressive attitude towards tourism and foreign investment. At least from tourism they can learn a lot from the DR. Foreigners are protected here even more than the locals are believe it or not.

They also need to finally convert from wood for cooking to propane - now is the time to do it.

If the Haitan gov't would offer incentives to foreigners to come buy large tracts of land for farming, this would be aplus. Does anybody know what the laws are concerning this?
 

Dj_iET

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Sep 8, 2008
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Haitians are actually very docile people.. But when you add tragedy, devastation, and an inept leader people will naturally react. Haitians were already in misery before now they are in hell..
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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thanks for the responses guys.

i'm interested in concrete successful programs in haiti that actually drive economic growth over a long period of time.

no problems if nobody knows of any, but if there is something i should take a look at i will be sure to.
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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They need infrastructure and an aggressive attitude towards tourism and foreign investment. At least from tourism they can learn a lot from the DR. Foreigners are protected here even more than the locals are believe it or not.

They also need to finally convert from wood for cooking to propane - now is the time to do it.

If the Haitan gov't would offer incentives to foreigners to come buy large tracts of land for farming, this would be aplus. Does anybody know what the laws are concerning this?

The land laws in Haiti are one of the things that has held agriculture back in Haiti for the last 2 centuries.
Collingwood knows all about this.
 

Chip

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The land laws in Haiti are one of the things that has held agriculture back in Haiti for the last 2 centuries.
Collingwood knows all about this.

Nice Peter, after telling me I suck on the other thread and otherwise hammering me and Christians in general you decide to be civil about this topic????
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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I am a real enigma, Chip.

PM Collingwood for the correct info. But basically trying to put a decent tract together is all but made impossible by laws invented to prevent large colonial powers enslaving the understandably sensitive population of 200 years ago, through economic means.
Not sure of the details.
Mountain Annie will know this stuff.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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I know one thing for sure first hand, they have little professionalism with regards to surveying. Without that, how can one be sure of the land they really owe? What investor in their right mind would want to come and build something if their not they can acquire clear title?

I base this on a survey of a property I received, signed by a professional. It had very serious problems to say the least. It was at a level of surveying that hasn't been used in the Western world in probably 300 years or more. I've seen plats/legal descriptions from the 1800's that were more accurate.
 

Chip

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The other thing hopefully they will do is set up municipal administrative districts that will provide water, sanitary sewer and power to a certain area first and then streets, etc. This would be a smart thing to do. This way, each district would have it's own team and funds and they could simultaneously bring each district back into the 21st century.

They also will need to police new construction in the area to safeguard against unsafe construction; one of the main causes of the loss of life. No more homes with little or no rebar will be allowed and certainly aggregate materials will be inspected for salt contamination.
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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chip, your post on surveying is tremendously interesting and i will ask lots of questions on that.

i am curious that you feel haiti should be rebuilt by the outside world. how will the haitians learn to value things and progress if their infrastructure is just handed to them?
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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chip, your post on surveying is tremendously interesting and i will ask lots of questions on that.

i am curious that you feel haiti should be rebuilt by the outside world. how will the haitians learn to value things and progress if their infrastructure is just handed to them?

Just like in any part of the world, local Haitans will be hired and they will learn and at some point start on their own. How many Dominicans who started businesses here in the DR learned the ropes abroad?

Inevitably, of the very numerous Haitans in Florida some professionals(engineers specifically) will see a good opportunity to return to the motherland especially seeing how the economy in the States is in the dumps.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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I've split these posts off from the Safety in PaP thread as this is a separate discussion that merits its own thread.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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From the development aid point of view, even when trying to use sustainable models as opposed to handouts, one of the main problems in Haiti has been what they call absorption capacity. The government is either non-existent, or too inefficient and corrupt to be entrusted with large volumes of funding needed for infrastructural improvement. The Haitian non-governmental sector organisations are too small and inexperienced to administer large projects. The private sector is small and intensely self-interested, with few exceptions. So aid and investment ends up being direct, which does not empower the local people or give them a feeling of ownership.

What has worked has been small-scale and that is not enough to transform a whole country. There are projects that have improved people's lives at community level - disaster preparedness in the north (ironically) focused on weather events (ironically), the Let Agogo dairy enterprise (Google it!), and the coffee growers in the north and north east are some examples.

But these have not been achieved with the big aid money, these are medium sized international organisations supporting small/medium sized Haitian NGOs like Veterimed, coffee growers associations, community committees in urban slums.

A lot of the work being done at central level involves slow processes - like the police training and other projects aimed at building efficient institutions.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Some non pc advice to better Haiti:

The more and more I learn about vudu the more it appears that this may be one of the major reasons of Haiti's problems.

1. There is no accountability. After all if your actions do not affect what happens to you why would one concerned about such a minor thing as work ethic?

2. With regard to children, it is obvious there is a very serious problem with child slavery. What does this say about attitudes towards children and they value they bring to society? If it is common that children are treated with such lack of regard, how could one ever hope to promote education?

In summary it appears these cultural values tied to vudu are directly related to Haiti's economic condition. It would appear that an apathetic, live for today mentality would prevail - not something conducive to a productive society.

Therefore, I think we should the international community promote Christian proselytization as much as possible so that values such as respect for human life and hope for tomorrow are instilled in the people.
 

RonS

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Oct 18, 2004
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Chiri, how do you think this new Clinton-Bush organization, and Clinton's appointment as Special UN Envoy, fit into your analysis? Can either effort act in lieu of an inefficient government on a large enough scale to actually administer the kind of larger projects Haiti needs going forward?
 

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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As Chiri noted -- the main problem has been getting the money on the ground... which is a problem all over the developing world.

I second Lait Agro Go which makes a great yogurt and should get more and more aid.. Also Fonkose which has done an incredible job of getting micro finance loans out to the poorest women.. including lots of training.. Also ORE which is an intensive farming operation in the south.

Note that one of the best aid operations has been the Mango export.. USAID put in a center for clearing the USDA requirements in Haiti and Haiti then became the worlds largest exporter of organic mangos.

The entire aid industry is a challenge since it requires people who themselves do not know private enterprise to teach others to engage in it---- many times what they do is teach them to write good grant proposals... ie make them more efficient beggars.

Digicell, the Irish phone company, was a miracle in Haiti.. getting the entire country onto cell phones within a couple of years. But the issue remains that many places do not have any electric grid to charge the phones. I have seen one guy with a small solar panel which charges 10 phones at a time.. great!

As for the land issue.. the laws of Haiti prevent foreigners from owning more than one piece of land. So you can have either a home or a business property but not both. Also, it is hard, as it is here, to locate all the heirs who may have claim to the land since under French law you cannot disinherit your children. Haiti has always suffered from the fact that Petion rewarded his soldiers with small tracts of land so that the majority of the land holdings are in small plots... subsitence agriculture. Add to that the fact that there is a real prejudice against being a peasant, working the land, and the dream of most families is to have their children educated to the level of professionals. Remember that 70% of Haiti is still rural... Now it will be even higher.

Also, the Haitian diaspora loses its rights to citizenship if they take citizenship in another country... so the brain drain has been severe and absolute. There was hope that the Constitutional change on this would go through soon... has to have a first passage with one congress. then a second, then goes into effect. Hopes for that have been dashed now even though they passed the first amendment.

It is very difficult to legally start a business there... requiring almost a year to get the proper papers in place.

I do not hold out much hope that the "aid" agencies will "develop" Haiti.. since they have very little experience in doing that successfully anywhere. For the most part, they will be able to keep the people alive.

For USAID, for instance, the main requirement for a successful project is that the money is accounted for correctly... NOT that there were any results on the ground!! Gonaives, for instance, is still under mud... two years after the storms.

But what the big aid organizations may be able to do is help get the roads built, help get schools and hospitals built, and help the small community organizations to take more charge of their own destiny. One issue has always been that there was never enough money... and projects were always geared to showing results and getting finished in two to four years.. which may not be the case now.

For instance, there are over 1500 Haitians who are studying medicine here in the DR. They cannot return to Haiti to practice since the Haitian doctors insist that in order to be licensed there, they must complete their internship there and there are not enough hospitals to even accommodate the doctors who graduate from the Haitian university. So building hospitals and helping the State pay the doctors will be a big help.

Add to all of this is the historic corruption of the Haitian state... ranked among the top five most corrupt states in the world. The last Prime Minister, Michele Pierre Louis, was accused of stealing 197 million dollars for the restoration of Gonaives.. in response, she, known by the international community as a woman of great integrity, said that she would open the State books to scrutiny. Within a week, she was removed from office.

What we are seeing now is ALL the international aid agency grabbing for funds, jostling for position, ramping up their operations... Not that immediate food aid is not needed... ditto medical care etc... but in the long run, if Haiti is going to develop, it is going to have to come from the Haitian people. It is a positive thing that so many people--- now an estimated 400,000-- are leaving PaP.. which was a barely habitable city before the quake... and returning to the provinces. Certainly there are going to be camps,,, refugee camps... for a long time to come.. But those who are going out, are returning to their ancestral homes... not to just anywhere... And perhaps... with education which may be available in the camps, new community organizations will arise.

I do not know. It is in my nature to be optimistic and look for the silver lining. It is very hard to do right now, given the devastation.
 

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Some non pc advice to better Haiti:

The more and more I learn about vudu the more it appears that this may be one of the major reasons of Haiti's problems.

1. There is no accountability. After all if your actions do not affect what happens to you why would one concerned about such a minor thing as work ethic?

2. With regard to children, it is obvious there is a very serious problem with child slavery. What does this say about attitudes towards children and they value they bring to society? If it is common that children are treated with such lack of regard, how could one ever hope to promote education?

In summary it appears these cultural values tied to vudu are directly related to Haiti's economic condition. It would appear that an apathetic, live for today mentality would prevail - not something conducive to a productive society.

Therefore, I think we should the international community promote Christian proselytization as much as possible so that values such as respect for human life and hope for tomorrow are instilled in the people.

OH PLEASE!!!!!! The Christian missionaries in Haiti have done NOTHING to promote self sufficiency. They teach the children to hold their heritage in contempt. They do not teach or promote birth control. They teach that everything lies in the hands of God, that one should placidly accept ones fate.......You clearly have very little understanding of Voodu.... which indeed worships Bon DWYE... There is room for you in the boat that is taking Pat Robertson down the River Styx. Voodu is recognized religion in Haiti. So please put a lid on it........

One of the reasons that there are so many children without the means of providing for them is just the fault of those very Christians............

And most Haitian families will go without food in order to send their children to school. It is not the fault of the poor that the more wealthy use these children badly... Sometimes it is the only hope that the poor have for their children... like, for instance, turning them over to any old blan missionary who comes by....
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Santiago
OH PLEASE!!!!!! The Christian missionaries in Haiti have done NOTHING to promote self sufficiency. .

Well I know Catholic missionaries wouldn't do that. I went to a private Catholic school and they taught me to work hard and be responsible.

They teach the children to hold their heritage in contempt.

If vudu is their heritage then yes, that should be held in contempt.

They do not teach or promote birth control.

So that is the reason we are so developed in the Western world? Not. This is a bandaid solution presented as a cure all to third world nations. Talk about lack of respect for a people. If they can't procreate we will have less to worry about. Great.

They (missionaries) teach that everything lies in the hands of God, that one should placidly accept ones fate.

Again, a Catholic missionary would teach that everything is in the hands of God, but also will remind you this life is hard and one is expected to produce. Remember what it says about if a man does not wish to work, let him not eat. I don't see anything "placid" about that belief.

.....You clearly have very little understanding of Voodu.... ..

Hey, I'm only getting my information from people who have lived in Haiti - maybe you should talk to them!

Voodu is recognized religion in Haiti. So please put a lid on it........

...

Great, this coming from a Christian! If something is legally allowed by man it must be good. Lo ultimo!

One of the reasons that there are so many children without the means of providing for them is just the fault of those very Christians............
...

Pure and utter conjecture and you should know better.

And most Haitian families will go without food in order to send their children to school. It is not the fault of the poor that the more wealthy use these children badly... Sometimes it is the only hope that the poor have for their children... like, for instance, turning them over to any old blan missionary who comes by....

You paint it a pretty picture don't you? I've got a story for you as told by my Haitian friend and neighbor from Petonville. He tells me that he can do whatever he want with his child, including cutting his head of with a machete and that nobody can do anything because he alone is responsible for his children. Needless to say, I don't believe he is capable of a heinous act but the very fact that he could say that in front of a bunch of Haitian people to me shows they certainly have different ideas when it comes to children. Whether or not the majority think like this is not relevant; there are apparently widespread albeit minority of people that don't value children the way they should.