Living in the DR and Cynicism

cobraboy · Apr 17, 2010

I wrote in my "Second Anniversary Living F/T in the DR" post that I'm a little more cynical than when first arriving. Let me clarify: I'm more cynical in institutional efficiency...telephone, power, general customer service and gubmint efficiencies, etc., not in day-to-day living and interactions with Dominicans.

But compared to some posts I read I'm a wide-eyed Pollyanna-esque optimist.

Some time ago I got to thinking: why? Why am I far less cynical that many here on DR1? I certainly have a lot of experience being here: traveled here often since '87, spent 12-15 weeks a year in the DR since '94 and lived here f/t for over two years now. I've established two credible businesses and lived in harmony with just a couple of bumps in the road. I have traveled often to every corner of the country. I've interfaced with folks from all walks of life here. Why am I not as cynical as many others here? It's not from lack of exposure.

No doubt there numerous factors that involve the individual as a person. But lately as I go through posts that tend to be either positive or negative vis-a-vis the DR I've started to see a pattern develop and wanted to toss it out for discussion.

Hypothesis:
It seems that folks who visit and live on the North Coast-the Costambar/POP/Sosua/Cabrete areas specifically-tend to have more "bad' things happen to them and are more negative and cynical than most others. Even folks who live in the Capital....who have to endure all sorts of challenges in greater volume than the North Coast...seem less negative and cynical that the folks on the North Coast. (Note: this is not a bash of the North Coast, just a discussion.)

Has anyone else noticed this? And if so, why do you think one factor of that cynicism is geographical in nature?

I have a few thought as to why but want to hear from y'all first, especially folks who live here and don't just parachute in for vacation.

What say you?

*gavel passed*

pedrochemical · Apr 17, 2010

Are you talking about DR1 posters or expats?
There is a big difference.

People generally post newsworthy stuff - generally bad stuff is more newsworthy that good stuff - a robbery is more likely to get posted than a nice day out, for example.

Cynicism is often mistaken for realism.

cobraboy · Apr 17, 2010

pedrochemical said:
Are you talking about DR1 posters or expats?
There is a big difference.

People generally post newsworthy stuff - generally bad stuff is more newsworthy that good stuff.

Cynicism is often mistaken for realism.

Either/or, primarily full time residents.

I refer to attitude toward news, not the news itself-which is usually cherry-picked. And attitude towards Dominicans and life in general.

Ken · Apr 17, 2010

During the 25+ years that I have lived in the DR, 15 years in Samana and the past 10 in Sosua, I have not detected anything in the air that negatively affects the thinking of people living on the North Coast.

But like you, cobraboy, I have seen a lot of negative posts from people about the North Coast, posts that make me wonder why.

Living in the DR is different than where you left, and not everybody is able to make a complete transition. This may lead to a sense of frustration or dissatisfaction that causes people to think negatively about the DR.

I suspect that those who choose to live in Santiago and Santo Domingo, on the whole, have a different personality than many who stay on the North Coast. When I was a cruising liveaboard, I met many sailors who went as far as the Bahamas, but no further. Only a few, the more confident and personally secure, sailed on to the DR and then on down island to Trinidad and Venezuela. I think Sosua is like the Bahamas for many who stay on the North Coast.

How you spend your time here also affects your thinking. I am sure that if I were to spend a lot of time in the bars, talking about how screwed up things are in this country, that my posts would have a less positive tone. I am sure there are more foreigners like this on the North Coast than in Santiago or Santo Domingo, if only because there are a lot more of us living on the North Coast.

Black Dog · Apr 17, 2010

There are, IMHO, negative posters and positive posters and this possibly reflects their attitude to life, glass half full or half empty! Much of the people who do like to post anything negative about certain areas don't actually live in those areas.

pedrochemical · Apr 17, 2010

cobraboy said:
Either/or, primarily full time residents.

I refer to attitude toward news, not the news itself-which is usually cherry-picked. And attitude towards Dominicans and life in general.

Well there is a difference.

People come on DR1 to complain more often than not.
If my major source of info was what the expat residents of D.R. posted on DR1 then I would think less of the place than I do from living here and talking to/ knowing expat residents.

Ken · Apr 17, 2010

cobraboy said:
Either/or, primarily full time residents.

I refer to attitude toward news, not the news itself-which is usually cherry-picked. And attitude towards Dominicans and life in general.

What is your support for suggesting the majority of negative posts are from expat residents?

DMV123 · Apr 17, 2010

Interesting thread. IMO - more volume of expats on North Coast -plus tourism - equals opportunity for those seeking to take advantage of foreigners.

When this happens we hear about it.

AND we have many expats come and go. This country is not for everyone. IMO again expats who live surrounded by expats seem to have more problems. Those who integrate better and earlier have less problems and see the good and the bad here. For the most part the good far outweighs the bad.

Many expats make no effort to learn the language or the culture they simply want a continuation of that "vacation" experience. NOt possible of course. And those expats who live an arrogant style of living seem to attract a lot more issues.

Comes down to simple numbers, attitude and arrogance.

Robert · Apr 17, 2010

cobraboy said:
And attitude towards Dominicans and life in general.

Remember, most don't actually know or socialise with any Dominicans.

I have always said this, most expats cannot count the Dominican friends they have on one hand. Even less when you're talk about socializing.

Lambada · Apr 17, 2010

pedrochemical said:
Well there is a difference.

People come on DR1 to complain more often than not.
If my major source of info was what the expat residents of D.R. posted on DR1 then I would think less of the place than I do from living here and talking to/ knowing expat residents.

I can think of very few long term expat residents who are not positive people; having said that, they wouldn't be people with whom I had much in common, so our paths wouldn't cross or I wouldn't choose to stay in contact.

I think those of us who are contentedly settled here are busy doing something about the ills which beset the country, in each of our own particular ways, to the best of our ability. But we don't always publicise it.

I do think certain areas might attract more in the way of newer residents who are in the earlier stages of adjustment and thus are possibly likely to externalise those issues by complaining. It is further compounded in some cases by having insufficient grasp of the language to know or understand what is going on around them. That is quite a powerless position to be in. There is something which can be done about it, of course, but that requires individual motivation and effort. Often what I see in posts here is the outward manifestation of that powerlessness.

Matilda · Apr 17, 2010

I think one of the main differences may be with whom you are living. Perhaps - and I have no idea if this is true - ex-pat couples are more likely to live on the North Coast, where they are more likely to meet similar people. Those married to or living with Dominicans are more likely to live in different areas.

Having a Dominican partner makes a big difference in that they can help you especially in the early days with understanding the culture, sorting out all sorts of issues such as dealing with authority, and of course you get to experience the joy of the people of this country. Hence you have less problems.

I am not saying that there are not same nationality couples who have not assimilated, nor who do not mix with Domincans at all, just that I think it can make a difference. And we all know of some same nationality couples who are doing a great job here - mentioning no names.

Mind you, whilst being in a mixed cultural relationship has several advantages here, it also comes with disadvantages but this is not the thread to discuss those!!!

Matilda

cobraboy · Apr 18, 2010

I agree that living actually amongst Dominicans of equal socio-economic strata makes things much easier.

Capital attracts labor. Foreigners who settle in tourist areas...and the entire North Coast pretty much qualifies...does attract folks who are attracted to what they see as "easy money." That also attracts a bad element ("Why do you rob banks?" "Because that's where the money is.") That element, in turn, creates all sorts of problems, real and imaginary, that would lead one to cynicism.

And there is a difference between the North Coast tourist areas and, say, Punta cana. On the North Coast many, many tourists aren't trapped in AI's. They get out and deal with those elements that are looking for easy money. In Punta Cana, the tourists pretty much stay within the AI's as evidenced by a clear lack of non-AI attractions, restaurants and bars in the area. So there are fewer questionable elements in the area for folks to deal with.

In the North Coast everything centers around tourists and expats. When you go to almost any other area, little is aimed at them. It's just Dominicans living an everyday life.

Living in areas where a larger % of locals are thinking "easy money" is MUCH different than where they aren't...or at least a lot less. That may be why folks in areas away from the North Coast aren't as cynical.

I know when I travel to the North Coast I have a totally different "feeling" about my surroundings than in other areas. Folks, locals, look at people a little differently and some expats set my spider senses off..kinda hard to explain. Some areas really creep me out, especially Boca Chica. I doubt I'm the only one.

Just a thought.

BushBaby · Apr 18, 2010

cobraboy said:
Living in areas where a larger % of locals are thinking "easy money" is MUCH different than where they aren't...or at least a lot less. That may be why folks in areas away from the North Coast aren't as cynical.

I know when I travel to the North Coast I have a totally different "feeling" about my surroundings than in other areas. Folks, locals, look at people a little differently and some expats set my spider senses off..kinda hard to explain. Some areas really creep me out, especially Boca Chica. I doubt I'm the only one.

Just a thought.

Perhaps the people of 'The North Coast' are just that wee bit more discerning & aware of the country's geography?? I always thought that Boca Chica was on THE SOUTH COAST????? :surprised

:cheeky:

irate:

Just a thought!! ~ Grahame. :ermm:

bob saunders · Apr 18, 2010

BushBaby said:
Perhaps the people of 'The North Coast' are just that wee bit more discerning & aware of the country's geography?? I always thought that Boca Chica was on THE SOUTH COAST????? :surprised :cheeky: irate:

Just a thought!! ~ Grahame. :ermm:

On occasion some north coasters get confused and end up in Boca Chica. People settle in the area that they think suits them. I think one of the things that people from a wealthier background than the DR can't comprehend the lengths that some poverty stricken people will go to remove themselves from poverty.

cobraboy · Apr 18, 2010

BushBaby said:
Perhaps the people of 'The North Coast' are just that wee bit more discerning & aware of the country's geography?? I always thought that Boca Chica was on THE SOUTH COAST????? :surprised :cheeky: irate:

Just a thought!! ~ Grahame. :ermm:

CB said:
Some areas really creep me out, especially Boca Chica. I doubt I'm the only one.

I realize you relish a chance to take a shot at me, Old Chap, but nowhere did I ever say Boca Chica was on "the "NORTH COAST."

Perhaps "some areas" has a different meaning in ever-intellectually nuanced Brit English than in linear-thinking redneck Southern American English...becaause to me, "some areas" includes Boca Chica; I didn't say "some areas of the North Coast."

But, harken: I DO understand the confusion. History has shown "some" North Coast residents go missing for weeks, only to find themselves ~mysteriously~ discovered in Boca Chica. Confusing, indeed...:cheeky:

We all gooder now?:cheeky:

Fiesta Mama · Apr 18, 2010

Although not currently a resident, my time spent living in the country for several months several years ago and my continuing attachment to the country via my Dominican husband and our life in both the DR and abroad helps me to understand the OP's question and to voice my opinion on it.

When I lived there, I met a TON of expats with negative attitudes towards the country and a TON of people with positive attitudes. There were major differences between how the two were living their lives. My observations then (and now) are as follows:

1. Those that speak Spanish (and if not at first those that make it a priority to learn) will be much much happier and have more positive experiences than those that don't. There are many reasons for this. First, if you don't speak the native language of the country you are residing in, you will live a somewhat limited existence that revolves around you depending on others who speak the language and can help you in situations where Spanish is required (i.e. with a local mechanic, at the bank, etc.).

I met many people who told me ALL Dominicans are out to screw gringos and those are same people who did not speak Spanish and therefore I saw those same people hanging with mainly other expats in the same situation or hooking up with Dominicans they called "friends" who they used as their right-hand man because those Dominicans "helped" them. They soon learned some of those same Dominicans were hustlers and made their living "helping" those gringos that didn't speak the language get out and about the locals and because the gringo didn't understand what was being said, they didn't always end up with the best deal. Those experiences would of course lead to stories of bad experiences, etc.

Also, those that don't speak the language are much less likely to travel around the country out of fear of being out of their comfort zone. They seek out only services, businesses, friends, etc. that speak English and they are therefore not really able to live a totally free life that you could if you were not limited by your language.

These same people that don't speak the language are also prone to get taken by other expats that feed on people like them and pretend to befriend them only to be using those people for their own personal gain (ie. taking someone to a business because the expat that speaks the language knows the Dominican owner and will likely be getting a kickback for the new business he/she is bringing). When I lived there, I met way more expats I didn't trust than Dominicans and the same still holds true.

2. The more time I saw people spending at bars drinking, the less happy they seemed. Many expats sat around for hours, day after day, reminiscing about their bad experiences. Many were alcoholics. If you choose to surround yourself with negative people in a similar situation instead of trying to improve your situation, it's easy to fall into the habit of being habitually negative about your adopted country and the more stories you hear from the other negative people just seems to verify your own experiences.

3. Those living outside of distinct tourist areas and gated communities and in Dominican neighbourhoods seem to assimilate much much better, have more Dominican friends, be more positive in general and live in the country for more reasons than the nice weather, beautiful people, the beaches, etc.

4. Those expats that are struggling to survive (ie. come to the DR to live the dream but can't really afford to) seem to be much less happy than those that either have businesses there, have retirement savings on which to live on or personal savings, etc. Anyone in any country would be miserable and negative if they were just getting by. They will continue to find negative things to say because they perhaps can't afford to do the things they envisioned or thought they would be doing when moving to the country in the first place.

5. Those married to a Dominican will more likely (if in an established, long-term relationship) be living in the country with more positive v. negative experiences. First of all, they most likely speak the native language out of necessity in order to communicate with their spouse and their spouse's family. They probably have many Dominican friends and have assimilated into the culture and they are obviously living in the country for more reasons than just weather, beaches, etc.

As for whether the negativity of expats on the North Coast v. anywhere else in the country is more prevalent, I think it's likely due to the fact that there are many more expats on the North Coast so of course there will be more with negative experiences (ie. if there are only 500 expats in Santo Domingo and 10% are unhappy, that's much fewer than if there are 5,000 expats on the North Coast and 10% are unhappy.). Those living in Santo Domingo, Santiago, and other areas where fewer tourists and expats are found are also much more likely to speak Spanish and have made friends with the locals. They probably live more independently without having to rely on a network of expats and more living in areas other than the North Coast might work or run business in the country while probably leads to a feeling of satisfaction.

Just to be clear, I am not at all bashing North Coast expats. Just passing on my own observations of why some seem so happy while others not so much.

jrhartley · Apr 18, 2010

a bit non-spanish speakingist.........I am amazed that there seems to be no crime of any sort at all in Santiago and santo Domingo or at least you would think so from reports on this site .

AlterEgo · Apr 18, 2010

Fiesta Mama said:
Although not currently a resident, my time spent living in the country for several months several years ago and my continuing attachment to the country via my Dominican husband and our life in both the DR and abroad helps me to understand the OP's question and to voice my opinion on it.

When I lived there, I met a TON of expats with negative attitudes towards the country and a TON of people with positive attitudes. There were major differences between how the two were living their lives. My observations then (and now) are as follows:

1. Those that speak Spanish (and if not at first those that make it a priority to learn) will be much much happier and have more positive experiences than those that don't. There are many reasons for this. First, if you don't speak the native language of the country you are residing in, you will live a somewhat limited existence that revolves around you depending on others who speak the language and can help you in situations where Spanish is required (i.e. with a local mechanic, at the bank, etc.).

I met many people who told me ALL Dominicans are out to screw gringos and those are same people who did not speak Spanish and therefore I saw those same people hanging with mainly other expats in the same situation or hooking up with Dominicans they called "friends" who they used as their right-hand man because those Dominicans "helped" them. They soon learned some of those same Dominicans were hustlers and made their living "helping" those gringos that didn't speak the language get out and about the locals and because the gringo didn't understand what was being said, they didn't always end up with the best deal. Those experiences would of course lead to stories of bad experiences, etc.

Also, those that don't speak the language are much less likely to travel around the country out of fear of being out of their comfort zone. They seek out only services, businesses, friends, etc. that speak English and they are therefore not really able to live a totally free life that you could if you were not limited by your language.

These same people that don't speak the language are also prone to get taken by other expats that feed on people like them and pretend to befriend them only to be using those people for their own personal gain (ie. taking someone to a business because the expat that speaks the language knows the Dominican owner and will likely be getting a kickback for the new business he/she is bringing). When I lived there, I met way more expats I didn't trust than Dominicans and the same still holds true.

2. The more time I saw people spending at bars drinking, the less happy they seemed. Many expats sat around for hours, day after day, reminiscing about their bad experiences. Many were alcoholics. If you choose to surround yourself with negative people in a similar situation instead of trying to improve your situation, it's easy to fall into the habit of being habitually negative about your adopted country and the more stories you hear from the other negative people just seems to verify your own experiences.

3. Those living outside of distinct tourist areas and gated communities and in Dominican neighbourhoods seem to assimilate much much better, have more Dominican friends, be more positive in general and live in the country for more reasons than the nice weather, beautiful people, the beaches, etc.

4. Those expats that are struggling to survive (ie. come to the DR to live the dream but can't really afford to) seem to be much less happy than those that either have businesses there, have retirement savings on which to live on or personal savings, etc. Anyone in any country would be miserable and negative if they were just getting by. They will continue to find negative things to say because they perhaps can't afford to do the things they envisioned or thought they would be doing when moving to the country in the first place.

5. Those married to a Dominican will more likely (if in an established, long-term relationship) be living in the country with more positive v. negative experiences. First of all, they most likely speak the native language out of necessity in order to communicate with their spouse and their spouse's family. They probably have many Dominican friends and have assimilated into the culture and they are obviously living in the country for more reasons than just weather, beaches, etc.

As for whether the negativity of expats on the North Coast v. anywhere else in the country is more prevalent, I think it's likely due to the fact that there are many more expats on the North Coast so of course there will be more with negative experiences (ie. if there are only 500 expats in Santo Domingo and 10% are unhappy, that's much fewer than if there are 5,000 expats on the North Coast and 10% are unhappy.). Those living in Santo Domingo, Santiago, and other areas where fewer tourists and expats are found are also much more likely to speak Spanish and have made friends with the locals. They probably live more independently without having to rely on a network of expats and more living in areas other than the North Coast might work or run business in the country while probably leads to a feeling of satisfaction.

Just to be clear, I am not at all bashing North Coast expats. Just passing on my own observations of why some seem so happy while others not so much.

Excellent observations Mama!

AE

bienamor · Apr 18, 2010

jrhartley said:
a bit non-spanish speakingist.........I am amazed that there seems to be no crime of any sort at all in Santiago and santo Domingo or at least you would think so from reports on this site .

Sure there is crime but as its spread around over a few million people, and the expats are not all grouped together, it is not as a momentous event as it seems to be on the north coast. it seems that we are not preyed upon, as there are more opportunities, than just the gringos. :bunny:

every once in a while the is a posting of something that happened in BC or JD but again those are tourist zones. Fairly compact areas. :squareeye

RacerX · Apr 18, 2010

It depends how deeply you invested in your new life being exactly like Magnum PI, or Hawaii 5-0 or some 1989 Bobby McFerrin song.

Living in the DR and Cynicism

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