A question for budding anthropolgists on Dominican behavioural traits

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Matilda

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Sep 13, 2006
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I am writing a book, and it is now at the editing stage.

It is basically about my life here, and living and associating with people of a different culture - ie Dominicans.

She has said that some Dominicans in the book come across as ignorant (the English sense not the American one), naive, dumb and untrustworthy, and finds this difficult to believe. She is unsure that this applies to more than a very few (she has never been here), and wants me to expand on how a background of poverty and lack of education can form these traits.

In addition I need to address more the attitude of Dominicans men to women - within a relationship, whether the women be foreign or Dominican.

Now before certain board members leap all over me and said this is what you get from barrio trash, I would also value the opinions of those of you who associate exclusively with the upper classes, who possibily do not have the traits mentioned above, ie they are intelligent, bright and totally trustworthy, and shed light on the fact as to why they are this way, and part of the population not so. Is it that they were well educated, widely travelled, born into money etc?


I would really appreciate your thoughts and views.

Thanks

Matilda
 
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RacerX

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Who is she? And what is the difference between the American definition of ignorance and the British definition?
 
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Matilda

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RacerX said:
Who is she? And what is the difference between the American definition of ignorance and the British definition?
Click to expand...

She is the editor.

I occasionally get into trouble for using an english word when it means something different in american english. Ignorant in english means not knowing things, it does not mean deliberately not caring - and apologies if i have the american definition wrong. ie if you take someones parking place in english you are rude, but I have heard americans say you are ignorant.

Matilda
 
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Chip

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My wife's family are poor and relatively uneducated, some religious and some not but they have treated me better than my own extended family and I find them no more or less trustworthy or honest than Americans I have known. Maybe we don't share the same interests but such is life. Also, in a family dominated by sisters there is little tolerance for cheating men believe it or not. Yes there was one example but shortly after they separated.

I have also met Dominicans that seem to fit the DR1 "stereotype", ie not too smart but rather conniving and lazy as well. Among my Dominican family and other Dominicans I know here these type of people are ostracized and ridiculed and little trust is placed in them by other Dominicans. It would be similar to a person being labled "trashy" or "ghetto" in the States.

I don't think my experience is unique but maybe not the norm. It could be that some in my wife's family are relatively religious and therefore have higher expectations than most.

As far as accepting me as family they have completely, including the extended family. I care for them just as much as my own family.
 
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RacerX

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No, I think the British definition is appropriate. Many Americans misuse the word ignorant when they mean to say inconsiderate or indifferent.

I think you'll have to explain not only the low education many receive and poverty but also the culture of political malfeasance that makes people think the way they do. Your editor doesnt understand because she lives in 21st Century western Europe. There is an idea you could present to her that this place is still in the early 20th Century in many many respects. Actually I think that is the best way to explain it to her. Paint a picture of the world before jetliners and the Internet, when electricity was a new innovation and the things it would bring as yet unknown and see if she can see your point of view.
 
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AlterEgo

AlterEgo

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This is not an easy issue to address Matilda. So many 'ifs' are involved.

My husband was born in the capital to a woman who was from one of the Canary Island families who came to SD in the 1700s. She was born with the proverbial silver spoon in her mouth, but by the time she got married to a tall, handsome man from Santiago, Trujillo had confiscated their property and they were decidedly less affluent. I tell you this so you understand that while my husband grew up poor, he wasn't a 'hood rat. So, poor doesn't always matter, and I'll bet there are many, many men and women like him in DR who have risen above the hand they were dealt at birth. I also think there is a great difference in those whose parents never lived under Trujillo.

When he went to school [1950s-60s], his mother [a teacher] enrolled him in some sort of special new school - a public school - but all the rest of the kids in that school were children of wealthy families. He was the only poor kid, and the only one in his family of 6 kids who went there. It couldn't have been easy for him, but he got a great education and made friends with all the right people, many of whom are still his friends today. His mother was, and is, a tough cookie, and she raised those kids with an iron fist, and they all have a strong self-esteem and held their head up high. She taught them manners and right from wrong. Even though they were poor, people knew who the family was, and so there was respect. He is very trustworthy, very honest, a great husband, father and grandfather. A product of his upbringing and not of his childhood economic status.

Now, I also know a lot of people in the campo of San Cristobal province. Many of these are the poorest of the poor, the blackest of the black. They run the gamut from lousy bums to dignified ladies and gentlemen with easy natural elegance despite their poverty. One woman told my husband that she hopes her 14 yr old daughter can meet and marry a Canadian, to her that is the epitome of success. That young girl is on a one-way street, guided by her mother. I've noticed that in some places they actually look down on boys who are not tigures - like there is something wrong with them. The same way that mother is pushing the daughter to find a white foreigner, there are others encouraging their sons to be tough, sneaky and out to get whatever they can from whomever they can.

Like anywhere else in the world, a child is the product of his family upbringing. If they come from a stable married couple, I think they have a better chance of becoming a better adult and better spouse. There are multitudes of single-parent children in DR, plus all the children being raised by their grandmother so their mother can run around - or live in the US or elsewhere -, and children being 'raised in the street' by the neighborhood.

Sorry this is so long and rather rambling....hard to put my thoughts about this into words....hope it helped a little.

AE
 
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Matilda

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Thank you AE and Racer, that is exactly what I am looking for. Some ideas to try and explain why and how people behave here the way they do. And yes Racer you are right, she has no concept at all of how this country works or where it is. But then, this is the challenge, nor will most of the readers.

matilda
 
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dulce

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I am sure that your book is going to be an interesting read!
It will be hard to explain these things to someone who has never been there and seen the things that you have experienced.
The Dr is so complicated with so many different cultures within it's own culture.
Relationships between men and women are still be studied around the world. To try and describe Dominican relationships is damn near impossible! ha ha The different opinions you will get from DR1 posters will most likely confuse you more.
I wish you luck on your book and also in trying to figure out how to explain such things to an outsider.
 
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Chirimoya

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Great post, AE. On one specific point -
AlterEgo said:
I've noticed that in some places they actually look down on boys who are not tigures - like there is something wrong with them.
Click to expand...
- Yes I've seen this - someone I thought would know better told her studious teenage son that he could be either a tiguere or a pariguayo, with the implication that he needed to be more of a tiguere.

Addressing the OP's general question I'd add to the point being made by all posters so far that poverty and lack of education are not the sole defining factors in creating these dishonest wheeler-dealers. Remember that tourist areas will always attract the less savoury elements in search of a quick route out of poverty. Your regular honest people from poor, uneducated backgrounds may be elsewhere, getting an education, working hard to improve themselves and earn a living.

Matilda said:
I would also value the opinions of those of you who associate exclusively with the upper classes, who possibily do not have the traits mentioned above, ie they are intelligent, bright and totally trustworthy, and shed light on the fact as to why they are this way, and part of the population not so. Is it that they were well educated, widely travelled, born into money etc?
Click to expand...
I know your question is tongue-in-cheek and maybe this is stating the obvious, but when it comes to rich tigueraje vs. poor tigueraje it is not as easy to tell. Most Dominicans I know are educated, many are well travelled and some are born into money. If any of them are up to no good, for reasons that should be obvious it will not be evident in the way it would be with ordinary tigueres on the streets, but that is not to say that they are any different ethically.
 
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pedrochemical

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Ignorance - does it exclude culpability?

I had this discussion years ago - conclusions were this.

Willful ignorance is rude.
Genuine ignorance less so.


However:
Ignorance, as I pointed out, is to be found on the same page as ignore and ignoramus in the dictionary.

Even if if someone is not aware of something - then they may have a responsibility to make themselves aware.
For example, a ship's captain who puts to sea ignorant of the weather conditions is culpable.


True ignorance in the UK sense is more like innocence.

In the US sense it is an immoral decision to ignore.


As this applies to bad behaviour through a lack of education - I think that right and wrong are fairly clear no matter how poor one is.
But the boundaries of what is regarded as acceptable behaviour may shift depending on how poor one is.

Tigre = Chav.

Looked up to in some places, looked down on in others.
 
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dv8

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let me start from a history from poland. i was going to a church group, believe it or not, to study bible. there was this big dude there, dumb as a rock, who has never had a book in his hand (that included the bible too, we were a weird bunch). he hated me with all his heart as i was the only person there who was at the university. he called me, with much disdain, "literature". and he considered that somewhere in line with a "ho" :)

i see this attitude here as well. many dominicans dislike people with education and see them as something low, nowhere as good as drug selling business, for example. brings no money, no cars, no women - it is not good :) others pride on receiving any education whatsoever and insist on being called "licenciado" at every occasion.

the outlook on life is so diverse here, from lowest tigres and putas to smart and trustworthy people...

i think that religion may be of some importance here. i have noticed there are many religious people, especially young, who value hard work, fidelity, education and other values. those tend to be less ignorant, both in european and american sense of the word. they have more empathy for the others and they are humble.

another important factor may be the contact with turistas. not in all the cases, of course but nonetheless many people who are in constant touch with tourists learn about "a better life" and desperately want to get there, at no cost.
 
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Matilda

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Please do not let us get caught up in semantics. My editor is a British woman. The book will be read primarily by British and English speaking people - I would have thought the majority woman. She cannot understand where the Dominican behaviours come from. This is from the electrician who over charges you, to the lawyer who does the same thing, to the doctor who makes money out of you for analysis, to the taxi driver who rips you off, to the corruption of the politicians. If I have not explained it well enough to her, then I have not either to the reader. So I need to explain it better. And saying a lack of education and poverty is not enough.

Matilda
 
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RacerX

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I dont think you can adequately express male/female relationships. Foreign and Domestic? There are volumes needed to get your point across and you cant cover that in one or 2 13 page chapters. Everything is interconnected and so your book may be more of a survey about the Dominican Republic than an intense perspective of what it is to live in part of the Spanish speaking Caribbean.
 
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POPNYChic

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matilda, who are you asking about this other than expats? im hoping this is only ONE of the avenues youre exploring when trying to get answers.
 
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Chirimoya

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Perhaps we could sum it up as a combination of machismo, a need for power and dominance and visible trappings of wealth, success and power, a dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest individualism, where looking out for yourself and your immediate family/tribe trumps ethics and the collective good.

This can apply to the wealthy businessmen and the corrupt politicians as well as the poorest tigueres.

One thing has to be clear - I wouldn't call it Dominican behaviour because it in no way applies to all Dominicans and it can be found across humanity. But it could be said that there is more tolerance/forgiveness/resignation about it here compared to certain other societies.
 
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Matilda

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POPNYChic said:
matilda, who are you asking about this other than expats? im hoping this is only ONE of the avenues youre exploring when trying to get answers.
Click to expand...

I have been researching this book for a couple of years and of course am asking Dominicans!!

However, I seem to have forgotten my audience, which although not expats are not Dominican and the vast majority of whom have never been here. So I need to get a perspective from people who know the readership, but who live here.

In my experience trying to ask Dominicans why they are the way they are does not produce the answers I need - at least not with the depth I need. Have you tried asking a lawyer why they are ripping you off? Or a policeman why he is asking you for a bribe? Or a robber why he is stealing from you?

What motivates them to do it? And it is not just poverty.

matilda
 
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Lando calrisian

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I think I got the title for you book, Tigueres, Putas y Licenciados. HAhaha...Sorry I know, I know not funny. DR is a conformist, conservative society with many trying to find the easy way out, others exist who truly believe in the greater good but are overwhelmed by the obstacles placed upon them. This creates desperation and many do things they wouldn't normally do, criminal things, bad things.

When I lived here in the 80's more people read for enjoyment, now people don't read at all, or at least the people I know aren't reading. They ask me why I have so many books 8)

I remember they used to say that if you read too much "te vas a volver loco".

Concerning the religious thing, I think Dominican's super religious and it play's a huge part in their lives. An agnostic, atheistic western European doesn't understand or mocks that level of devotion. I remember talking to guy from Romania and he said that is was cute to see people holding on to that superstition.

Hope my rambling helped!

Good luck we need more books about contemporary DR life out there, so dale pa'lante.
 
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Chip

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I see where my original post was ignored; then again my presupposition that generally speaking Dominicans aren't a better or worse quality of people than anyone else, including Brits, doesn't really gel with the original hypothesis. Oh well.
 
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