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Thread: Ex Haitian Presidents returning

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    Default Ex Haitian Presidents returning

    Does anyone share my opinion that both of the crooks are coming back to steal more money? They see tons of money pouring into Haiti and see that others are stealing it before they get a chance to get thier hands on it? What to hell? They spent all that they stole before and are greedy for more.

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    I believe that the task of rebuilding Haiti is so daunting that it would intimidate almost anybody who would GENUINELY try to do it.

    But, to play the role and have control over all the money that's been pledged...almost anybody is qualified to do that.

    It's like a film actor who does an action film......he doesn't do his own stunts, so ANYBODY can play that role.

    Jackie Chan...on the other hand.....


    More important than the fact that both are only interested in money are the lack of accomplishments that are the legacy of both "leaders".


    People have their ideas about Castro, but at the end of the day look at Cuba and look at Haiti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by getthesenets View Post
    People have their ideas about Castro, but at the end of the day look at Cuba and look at Haiti.
    Not a fair comparison - look at the starting points, look at the assistance Castro received from USSR and look at how educated and organized Cuba was even 40 years before the Castro beast took over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob saunders View Post
    Not a fair comparison - look at the starting points, look at the assistance Castro received from USSR and look at how educated and organized Cuba was even 40 years before the Castro beast took over.

    Debateable.
    The USSR has not existed for a generation.

    And conversely - contrast US policy towards and impact on Cuba and Haiti.

    Bob - do not confuse democracy with freedom - which Americans like to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pedrochemical View Post
    Debateable.
    The USSR has not existed for a generation.

    And conversely - contrast US policy towards and impact on Cuba and Haiti.

    Bob - do not confuse democracy with freedom - which Americans like to do.
    There's no confusion, I'm very familiar with Cuba, having been there a number of times and having many Cuban relatives - some party members and some dissidents. When Cuba was receiving subsides from the Soviets, it was the USSR, It was partly the break up of the USSR that resulted in no more money coming Castro's way. This resulted in extreme hardship for Cubans. Cuban felt abandoned as a result.
    Cuba, regardless of the spin certain people like to put on the time before the Cuban revolution, was a well organized country with proper infrastructure, education, hospitals...etc. Haiti has never been organized.
    Democracy without freedom is not Democracy, at least in our modern definition.
    1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
    2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
    3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
    4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

    I know the difference between an elected dictatorship and Representative Democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob saunders View Post
    There's no confusion, I'm very familiar with Cuba, having been there a number of times and having many Cuban relatives - some party members and some dissidents. When Cuba was receiving subsides from the Soviets, it was the USSR, It was partly the break up of the USSR that resulted in no more money coming Castro's way. This resulted in extreme hardship for Cubans. Cuban felt abandoned as a result.
    Cuba, regardless of the spin certain people like to put on the time before the Cuban revolution, was a well organized country with proper infrastructure, education, hospitals...etc. Haiti has never been organized
    .
    Democracy without freedom is not Democracy, at least in our modern definition.
    1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
    2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
    3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
    4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

    I know the difference between an elected dictatorship and Representative Democracy.
    No it wasnt. It was another Kleptocracy administered by the US pupper Fulgencio Bautista. If the place was that great, he would have never been toppled. That is self explanatory. Castro was a lawyer in the Bautista days and could have easily made himself comfortable in the Cuban political environment. Guevara was a doctor from an upper middle class bourgeoise family. These guys didnt need to lead a revolution. They could have both opened practices in Havana and made themselves rich.

    ....and before the Revolution, Cuba had a 3% literacy rate.

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    Yes they are coming back for the money. None of them ever gave a damn for their own people.

    Fortunately, as it is set up now the individual major donors of projects of the Clinton Commission will have complete control over disbursement of funds as opposed to the commissioners (Hatian and foreigners). This will greatly limit the grafting.

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    But the American arrogance of assuming that freedom is synonymous with democracy is stunning.
    Not you particularly, but the US in general.

    You can see this in the way that the US likes to try to "Impose Democracy".
    Do you see the contradiction in the the phrase "Impose Democracy"

    We can see that it does not work - Iraq and Afghanistan for example.


    And while we are handing out bullet-pointed arbitrary definitions off the top of our heads, try this..

    Freedom.
    • The freedom to feed yourself and your family.
    • The freedom to sleep safely in your bed at night.
    • The freedom to drink clean water and eat enough food each day.
    • The freedom to aspire to a good life for yourself and a better life for your children.
    Democracy is fought for and won - not handed down by the good grace of economic ideologues. And Democracy comes in many different forms - it is a continuum from real democracy to pretend democracy.
    The US is somewhere in the middle.
    The UK is just a big old anachronistic mess - but it kind of works.
    Haiti is a flawed democracy.
    The D.R. is a flawed democracy.

    China seem to have played it quite smart - give the people the economy but keep hold of the politics.
    Apart from a few intellectuals, the Chinese want economic freedom.
    Representative democracy is secondary.

    And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pedrochemical View Post
    And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.
    Associating some US businesses with US poltics and democracy is not logical, ie big business exploitation is not something American or much less democratic for that example. Look at England for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pedrochemical View Post
    But the American arrogance of assuming that freedom is synonymous with democracy is stunning.
    Not you particularly, but the US in general.

    .........And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.
    Indian Wars Time Table

    Slavery in the United States | Economic History Services

    Some of us understand that you're not referring to US "Business" but directly to the US Government. The government of the USA is a type of democracy which is referred to as a "Constitutional Republic". Business interests and government interests in this typ of democracy are inseparable as the theory goes: "What's good for business is good for the people"

    More land and more labor (for free if you don't count the cost of human lives)was very good for the growth of US business therefore it was very good for the people, right?

    Inhumanity to one's fellow Man has always been good for business. BebeDoc understands this just as his Papa did and that's why they were propped up by US business interests (AKA: "government"). The Haitian people will get what's coming to them once business gets going.

    I wonder how many people realize that in the early history of the US only landowners had the right to vote in most States?

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