Good Argument Against Sending Money to Women

I had thought about starting a thread like this earlier today but with a different spin. I wanted to know "If you decided to remit money to your Dominican girlfriend, how much would you?" In the Santo Domingo section there is a thread on DNA and the guy's girlfriend is holding out for $1000/month in maintenance for his supposed child. Now that is sky high for me, but if you guys were to do it where would you set the financial beacon? And why that number?

Another synopsis for that story is the fish parable in the Bible. Gimme a fish, who cares where it came from I m eatin'. If I catch my own fish, I can start a restaurant.

RacerX said:

And why that number?

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YouTube - I'm gonna make him an offer she can't refuse

Here's a link to that story Dominican Republic News & Travel Information Service

First of all, one must look at the dynamics of each individual situation.

A family member, in this case a Dominican spouse, sending money to his wife to support the household is different from the scenarios we have seen played out over the years of a foreigner sending a girlfriend money.

A Dominican working abroad has an established relationship with his household, and everything is his, including the children. He has family ties and ties to the community, regardless of how many times he travels back and forth during the course of a calendar year. These communities are usually not anywhere near any tourist areas where the wife could potentially be out hustling for extra cash by sleeping with foreign men. She will be closely watched by someone within the Dominicans' circle of friends and family, and can usually count on any news of his wife's antics getting back to him.

In the latter case, the stereotype is usually the one we are most accustomed to. Foreigner meets young Dominican chica in a tourist area, they become attached, and he then sends money for various purposes that have nothing to do with maintaining a household that does not belong to him.

It's usually someone else's children, someone elses' household, and the myriad of problems that befall any member of said household, regardless of how transient said member is, the foreigner is expected to take care of it in the form of money. Since he is usually a vacationing boyfriend, he has no idea if any of these tales are true or not, but we can come to a reasonable conclusion that the majority of the time they are not. The cheating girlfriend can count on the support of her immediate friends and family, as they are usually all in on the scam and stand to benefit in some fashion by keeping the ruse alive.

The Dominican, regardless of how hard times get working out of the country, still maintains the bonds that hold him to his native country. The foreigner's ties are contingent upon the level of support he sends and nothing else.

Therefore, the foreigner pays and is entitled to absolutely nothing. Fidelity is the major joke that he becomes the punchline of, whereas the Dominican can maintain a modicum of respect due to his family ties, which are very important for the breadwinner of the household. This isn't always the case, but it is a general outline for what is expected by both sides.

The foreigner cannot lay claim to anything other than the assurance that he is being played. And when the relationship crashes and burns, he is left with nothing but the bitter taste of being taken for a fool.

Berzin said:

First of all, one must look at the dynamics of each individual situation.

A family member, in this case a Dominican spouse, sending money to his wife to support the household is different from the scenarios we have seen played out over the years of a foreigner sending a girlfriend money.

A Dominican working abroad has an established relationship with his household, and everything is his, including the children. He has family ties and ties to the community, regardless of how many times he travels back and forth during the course of a calendar year. These communities are usually not anywhere near any tourist areas where the wife could potentially be out hustling for extra cash by sleeping with foreign men. She will be closely watched by someone within the Dominicans' circle of friends and family, and can usually count on any news of his wife's antics getting back to him.

In the latter case, the stereotype is usually the one we are most accustomed to. Foreigner meets young Dominican chica in a tourist area, they become attached, and he then sends money for various purposes that have nothing to do with maintaining a household that does not belong to him.

It's usually someone else's children, someone elses' household, and the myriad of problems that befall any member of said household, regardless of how transient said member is, the foreigner is expected to take care of it in the form of money. Since he is usually a vacationing boyfriend, he has no idea if any of these tales are true or not, but we can come to a reasonable conclusion that the majority of the time they are not. The cheating girlfriend can count on the support of her immediate friends and family, as they are usually all in on the scam and stand to benefit in some fashion by keeping the ruse alive.

The Dominican, regardless of how hard times get working out of the country, still maintains the bonds that hold him to his native country. The foreigner's ties are contingent upon the level of support he sends and nothing else.

Therefore, the foreigner pays and is entitled to absolutely nothing. Fidelity is the major joke that he becomes the punchline of, whereas the Dominican can maintain a modicum of respect due to his family ties, which are very important for the breadwinner of the household. This isn't always the case, but it is a general outline for what is expected by both sides.

The foreigner cannot lay claim to anything other than the assurance that he is being played. And when the relationship crashes and burns, he is left with nothing but the bitter taste of being taken for a fool.

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Well said Berzin!

One more thing, on like marriage between Gringos, Dominican men don't require their wives to go out to work to help them pay half of the bills.

A lot of Dominican women go to work when they get marry but once they have kids, if they want to stay home, the husband is expected to cover all the household expenses.

A lot of foreigner like to come here crying that Western women want to be their equal (wear the pants in the house) but what they don't say is that those women are required to go out to find a job to help pay half of the bills in the house.

I've never seen a Dominican women driving a Tractor Trailer or a Forklift or working lifting heavy stuff that only a man will do in the DR. But I see women doing this and much more here in the States, not because they want to do it, but because they have bills to pay at home.

Dominican women are more submissive, obedience and will do everything in the house because they don't have to work out of the house.

I have see them change once they come here to the U.S. as they have to work like men to help pay the bills in the house. Once Dominican women have to work like their husband here in U.S, they stopped taking all the crap, that they've taken in the DR.

Food for thought here

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/fo...ttance-Crunch-But-Women-Migrants-Keep-Sending

I agree with Berzin about the differences between gringos sending money and Dominicans sending money....

Have not seen the entire study but I am sure that for many people, the remittances make the difference between survival and .....

Please....99% of my male Dominican friends here send that money to have CONTROL. It has nothing to do with love or supporting a family. They control that woman, she can't live a normal life, work, or date even though her husband is not "exclusive" to her.
I have one friend in particular that has a woman and 2 kids in Sajoma but lives here in New Jersey with his actual wife and other 2 kids. This girl in Sajoma knows about his wife and complains but does nothing further than run her mouth. I think he sends her 5000pesos per month. She asked him if she could go back to school (she had the 1st baby at 17y.o. and didn't finish high school), he said no. She asked if she could work part-time....no. Yet he goes to DR once (maybe twice) per year. She lives in a small house that had been in his family for years so if she ever cheated, went to school, or did something else he didn't like, she would ne on the streets.
Most if my Dominican male friends here have the same type of scenario. They are super machista and just want to be in control at all times, wanting the campo to see that he "runs things" even from Nueba Yol. It has nothing to do with love, supporting a family, stimulating the economy and all that ****. Because if that woman is seen found doing ANYTHING wrong her and her children (who are his children) will get NOTHING. I have seen remittances withheld for a month or 2 to "teach the woman a lesson", usually if she has gone out with her friends or had some similar type of enjoyment "without permission"
Sending money to support a household my a$$

SHALENA

white guilt or colonial oppression

Fascinating post. Who knows why people send money. A critical ethnography I recently read stated that many gringos are aware that money sent to their chicas or chicos in the Dominican Republic don't buy affection or family connections are anything beyond the superficial displays of love and loyalty while they vacation.

Yet despite this, they continue to send money. The article stated the reason why Americans or Europeans send money represents an act of charity. Gringos feel that they are "helping" and making a difference. This allows the gringo to attain a positive actualized self that is absent in their lives back home. But unlike most charitable contributions, the ones of the Caribbean has sexual benefits.

The inhabitants of the Caribbean are aware of this charitable/guilt dichotomy and thus quickly into meeting a potential "sponsor" will rush them to meet the family. The family's home is a demonstration of the poor conditions, dirt floors, the barest of essentials (amazingly clean); yet the whole family seems happy without the materialism associated in the first world. Who knows how authentic such meetings truly are.

So, do you think gringos send money to relieve white guilt or remove the cognitive dissonance associated with having the luxurious life of the 1st world?

jackcrew said:

Fascinating post. Who knows why people send money. A critical ethnography I recently read stated that many gringos are aware that money sent to their chicas or chicos in the Dominican Republic don't buy affection or family connections are anything beyond the superficial displays of love and loyalty while they vacation.

Yet despite this, they continue to send money. The article stated the reason why Americans or Europeans send money represents an act of charity. Gringos feel that they are "helping" and making a difference. This allows the gringo to attain a positive actualized self that is absent in their lives back home. But unlike most charitable contributions, the ones of the Caribbean has sexual benefits.

The inhabitants of the Caribbean are aware of this charitable/guilt dichotomy and thus quickly into meeting a potential "sponsor" will rush them to meet the family. The family's home is a demonstration of the poor conditions, dirt floors, the barest of essentials (amazingly clean); yet the whole family seems happy without the materialism associated in the first world. Who knows how authentic such meetings truly are.

So, do you think gringos send money to relieve white guilt or remove the cognitive dissonance associated with having the luxurious life of the 1st world?

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..............assumes WE are all white.

SKing brings up a good point.

I've always thought that foreigners send money for the same exact reason SKing says Dominicans do-for control.

But the foreigner doesn't get the same thing out of the deal as the Dominican. In fact, the foreigner gets nothing except an ear full of lies.

So why do they do it? Why do they concern themselves with trying to purchase someone's fidelity in a country where you can find a companion so easily, especially when the one who is out there cheating and lying knows he/she can be replaced in a matter of hours?

For myself I send money to my Dominican wife because I know what her life is like when I am not there to provide for her. SHe does has and can work but work is not always available. She has no reason to lie to me about it because she knows i will help her if i can whatever the reason. I do not always send money but I try to (maybe it is the charity guilt thing) because I do not like the idea of people eating hot chocolate and bread as their only meal for the day. I can not support all Dominicans but I can support the ones I care about just as I do the people I care about in Canada and just as I will for her when she is here, if she does come here. I do know that there is a chance she is an oscar winning actress ( her one aunt isn't she does not like gringos)but the same chance exists of her being the loving caring human being I feel she is.
That being said she is dominican and she wants everything and she wants it all now. She used to think that because we have better food homes and cars that we are made of money in Canada. I sat her down with my pay stubs and my monthly expenses including trips tp dominican republic and showed her what life is like up here. She now understands how expensive life is here and I am not made of money.
She has learned from me that she looks after what she needs and eventually you can get what you want. She doesn't need the expensive hair or the always perfect nails or to be out at the car wash every weekend. Now she has a better life at home, boring for her but better and she no longer has debt. Not all because of my money, but because she uses hers to attain goals. I help because I want to not because I feel I have to.

In summary I send money because I care for her and her family.

money

Some of you assume too much.

What make you think that many of the gringos don't understand perfectly well that cuando el gato no esta, los ratones hacen fiesta ??

Many of the guy go back the States with their girlfriends, dates, etc there too.

Many guys send money because

1. They genuinely like the person they are sending money to.
2. They consider the money a pittance compared to the enjoyment they receive from the person - however rare their visits.

No need to overly analyze the thing. For the average 1st world man, the femininity and charm of the average Dominican woman is so refreshing that he is glad to assist her.

I personally would never accept any money from anyone, but it is nice when someone shows they care and not just try to control and take advantage of someone's worse economic situation. I don't think it is bad to send money to a person as long as intentions are good and genuine. I send money to my family too once in a while.

I agree with kdolo. The money is being sent because this is less a control issue and more of "I like you" I would say, but not the rest.

Aint no one stopping a Dominican woman from working if she wanted to. The women in question in San Jose or anywhere dont want to work, because it is easier to get something handed to you than make an effort to get it. And the UN study clearly illustrates this. The women who dont KNOW anyone to send them money are more industrious that the ones who do. But dont let it fool you, they are looking. The women in my experience would most likely become the same as those that receive remittances. In fact I would suffice it to say that the entrepreneurial woman are envious of the women who get WUs.

You guys dont get it. It is not about white guilt(whatever that is), it is about keeping up with the Jones' and the unhealthy psychological subscription to fairy tales. They will talk out the side of their face but they ALL want an man to send them money for absolutely nothing, even to the point of reading you the riot act if you have questions or require details about its use. I have a friend who told me all American men are liars and fake friends. Are we? Or is it just her perception of what she thought was going to happen when she met an American man did not match reality? When they tell you this ask them(if you want to),"When, where and how did he lie to you?" There is NEVER an answer. It is a makeshift cover all bases excuse that really means "No es mi culpa que el se fue." "I wanted him to marry me and fix." You, the foreigner, never lied, you just have a different way of approaching constructing a relationship, if that was want you wanted. The perception "They come here, they will know you for 8-10 days and decide they want to marry you. Then start sending you money and then bring you [there]." Yea, that happens, for dumbassses who never knew what they wanted in a woman except the most pleasurable woman parts. You cant base no friendship on "if he is willing to resolve your pre-existing problems" and not understand why he left.

It does not matter if he is Dominican or Foreigner. If the cat is away the mouse will play. Not in all cases but it is just as easy for a woman who is married in San Jose or San Cristobal to tell her neighbors she is going to see her sister in Santiago or Bonao when she is whoring in Sosua all weekend or with her boyfriend in Nagua or Montecristi(ask me how I know? wink-wink). The only difference is no one knows this and all the money she earns go in her pocket while she still pleads poverty to her man overseas to send money.

Finally he IS glad to assist within reason. And that is why WE shouldnt do it, because the limits of our reason arent the same on both sides of the relationship. The man says a mere sum of $100 over a month or 6 weeks is sufficient to get some groceries and make it through the month. Some of you boneheads send $300/month or more. The woman feels you should give to HER hearts content.

It is not that they are happy being poor because they always were. It is more like if you spent your entire childhood eating Spam, fried baloney and plantains and someone took you to a Las Vegas buffet, what would you do? You would engorge yourself pushing the limits of all these new and colorful gastronomic delights. They do the same thing. They tell you poorly constructed lie, you say "Aw shucks" then send the money. All you did was confirm that anytime they tell you nonsense you concede that it can only be cured by sending your money.

Last night I heard some weirdness. I log onto Facebook and there is Luz. "Hola, te esperaba" Why? "Algo paso" What happened? "Yo deje una cuenta al salon" What? "I thought I had money on me when I went to the salon but I didnt." That sucks. "Can you help me out?" Nope. "Give me what you can" <---I hate this phrase, it assumes that keeping my money is nothing to me so therefore giving it to you is, likewise, nothing at all. I cant give you nothing, but advice, you are stupid for going to the salon without money. The fact you aint got no money means you shouldnt be wasting what you dont have in the salon in the 1st place. For most of us who have limited funds we limit ourselves to buying food and skip the luxury of having someone else wash our hair.

Try telling someone who EXPECTS you to give them money THAT with a straight face and not expect to be cursed out.

BTW, the salon story was a ruse. Give me what you can. If you have a $50US in your pocket let me hold that and I will see what I can do.

RacerX said:

I agree with kdolo. The money is being sent because this is less a control issue and more of "I like you" I would say, but not the rest.

Aint no one stopping a Dominican woman from working if she wanted to. The women in question in San Jose or anywhere dont want to work, because it is easier to get something handed to you than make an effort to get it. And the UN study clearly illustrates this. The women who dont KNOW anyone to send them money are more industrious that the ones who do. But dont let it fool you, they are looking. The women in my experience would most likely become the same as those that receive remittances. In fact I would suffice it to say that the entrepreneurial woman are envious of the women who get WUs.

It does not matter if he is Dominican or Foreigner. If the cat is away the mouse will play. Not in all cases but it is just as easy for a woman who is married in San Jose or San Cristobal to tell her neighbors she is going to see her sister in Santiago or Bonao when she is whoring in Sosua all weekend or with her boyfriend in Nagua or Montecristi(ask me how I know? wink-wink). The only difference is no one knows this and all the money she earns go in her pocket while she still pleads poverty to her man overseas to send money.....

Finally he IS glad to assist within reason. And that is why WE shouldnt do it, because the limits of our reason arent the same on both sides of the relationship......

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I think you are on target Racer X.....BTW I was the OP of the thread that Ken2 referenced at the start of this new thread.

Teach a man to fish...

You are correct Ken2...the OP was discussing the UN report. I agree with the report and its findings.

It does seem that anecdotal evidence supports the fish parable. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, he never goes hungry. The US debates the merits of the welfare system all the time. Conservatives usually say that it creates a cycle of dependance while liberals say something along the lines, "you are right, but its for the children (not the lazy parents) or to get past a temporary hard time (not a permeate solution)."

From my own life, anytime I receive unearned money I blow it. Sure, I may spend it to pay a bill here or there or get a necessity; but generally I just buy something I don't need (but want). Seldom do I use it to advance my station in life.

Apparently, the UN study demonstrates that my attitude is fairly common. Remittances seem to be viewed as unearned money and therefore can be spent on more frivolous purchases (as well as some necessities I am sure). The receivers of unearned money do not develop an entrepreneurial attitude but rather a dependent one.

So what are the options? Send no money. Send money with strings attached (this money is for learning to fish only). Send far less money meaning that they will only have enough to meet basic substance requirements (however that can be learned). Or continue to send what you currently do and hope for the best.

Some of the more recent sociological research seems to conclude that the mere exposure to a better life or entrepreneurial behavior has the greatest and longest effect on people. Take for instance the Big Brother/Big Sister program in the US. A Big Brother (usually a working, well established guy) is assigned to a younger Little Brother (often from poorer, broken homes). There is no real money dependance created, no big gifts given, but rather time doing what the Big normally does. Through the mere exposure of seeing how someone else lives, the Little usually starts to develop similar behaviors and attitudes.

Who knows how this would work with adults living in different cultures. I feel my world view has changed some by the mere exposure of traveling to the DR. But has any Dominican changed behavior/attitude through exposure to me? Not likely.

so what happens when you dont have any more money to send- do they still like you for who you are