Frank Moya Pons: La cuesti?n haitiana

NALs

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Frank Moya Pons, the most famous Dominican historian, published a column in Diario Libre concerning the accelerated growth of the Haitian immigrant community in the DR. As such, this really is more of a Dominican issue, but since it deals with Haitians, I decided to post it in this forum.

Anyways, according to his investigations the Haitian immigrant community has evolved in he following manner (year and quantity of Haitians estimated to had been living in the country):

1983: 27,000
1998: <100,000
2004: 380,000
2011: >1,000,000

In the following, what's in parenthesis is more my commentary rather than paraphrasing what Pons said.

Based on what Pons wrote, not only has the Haitian immigrant population exploted after 1998, and especially after the 2000 decade started; but since the 1980s it has progressively become dominated by the illegal immigrants.

The reason, according to Pons, is due to pressures from international interests groups that the Dominican government has been receiving and succumbing ever since Leonel Fern?ndez came to power in 1996 (in reality, Balaguer was often pressured by foreign 'interests,' but he refused to cooperate and maintained that stance. In private, that was one of his biggest complaints and eventually was made public with the conspiracy of France, Canada and the US wanting to Haitianize the country - wonder why he chose those countries in particular. Even Hip?lito Mej?a once said when he was asked by a reporter about the immigration problem, and he spontaneously responded that there's nothing that can be done because those are orders from abroad. Typical of Hip?lito, he probably later thought he should had never made that public.)

When Leonel took power in 1996, he continued to massively deport illegal immigrants, but the outcry from local and foreign Human Rights groups and radical priests from the Catholic churches up and down the border, caused the Leonel administration to halt the massive deportations. According to Pons, this halt lead to a rumor spreading in many Haitian communities that they would not be deported if they crossed into Dominican territory illegally, and this caused an upsurge in the flow of illegal immigration from Haiti.

During Hip?lito Mej?a's administration (2000-2004), the same hands off policy continued regarding massive deportations, all due to the fear of the government being smeared by Human Rights groups and radicals. What made matters worst was a massive investment in infraestructure, schools, hospitals, etc that the Mej?a administration made along the Dominican border towns, further increasing the appeal to extremely impoverished Haitians. Mej?a also removed the restrictions that used to exist that prohibited undocumented people from getting medical care in public hospitals and their children getting an education in public schools, resulting a further incentive for Haitians with no real hospitals on the Haitian side and hardly any schools, to cross over to the DR, even if it was to take advantaged of these services paid for by Dominican taxpayers.

In the last and current Leonel administrations (2004-2008/2008-2012), the same hands off policy regarding massive deportations were maintained, leading to a further increase of the flow of illegals from Haiti. During all this time, Haiti's economic and political situation has been deteriorating, culminating with the earthquake; as a consequence, the migration pressure has grown.

According to Pons, we're now at a point where in many Dominican public hospitals most births are to illegal Haitian women, public schools have an ever increasing presence of Haitian children, and the same is happening in the universities. Even Haitians that before had not migrated in large numbers (middle/upper class Haitians) are now moving to the DR to take advantage of social services, education and better sanitary conditions.

In many areas of intensive agriculture, there are times when more than half of the rural workforce consist of Haitian immigrants, such as in Constanza, in the coffee plantations of Barahona, in the yuca and tobacco fields in the Cibao valley, in the rice paddies of the lower Yuna, and even in cattle ranches and haciendas in the eastern provinces, economic activities that never before had used Haitian labor.

With this continuous increase of illegal immigrants from Haiti, with such a rapid pace during such a short period of time, many Dominicans have voiced their concerns, in rare instances resulting in violance.

Many businessmen are now saying that the Dominican agricultural economy can't function anymore without the Haitian laborers. Without the very cheap labor the Haitians provide, many of these agribusinesses would fail (in reality, the more efficient businesses would mechanize and the least efficient would be absorbed by the more efficient, resulting in a widespread improvement in productivity in the agricultural sector resulting in less men working the fields with technology, higher wages and better working conditions; rather than maintaining hoards of men working practically by hand from sun up to sun down for peanuts). Other people, in particular economists, claim that the massive Haitian presence is hurting the Dominican labor force that would had benefited from the better working conditions and higher wages in the agricultural sector, since the large numbers of illegal immigrants have been lowering the prevailing wages, making mechanization and improvements in productivity undesirable since its cheaper overall to higher massive numbers of Haitians. The massive numbers of impoverished Haitians moving into the country also poses a problem for continous poverty reduction, and threatens to reverse the advances that have been acheived thus far.

For the time being, according to Pons, the economy has been absorbing Haitians in the lowest and worst paid positions, such as cleaning services, guards, house maids, etc. He also mentions Haitians working in the informal economy (ie. street vendors, etc) as being 'absorbed' into the economy, I would argue that that's a sign of the Dominican economy having problems absorbing the excess number of Haitians. The informal economy grows when the formal economy, which is the part that is held accountable to all labor laws to avoid exploitation - not so the informal economy, has no need for the excess. That, to me, is not a good sign at all.

Pons also claims that more radical Dominican groups accuse the Dominican government for willingly allowing the Haitianization of the country, and often resort to old nacionalist arguments to support such views.

He says that the illegal migration flow are now more intense than ever, and that no one knows what the consequences of this will be in the future.

LA CUESTI?N HAITIANA - DiarioLibre.com
 

NALs

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I forgot to add that Pons also mention corruption at the border involving some military officials and politicians as part of the reason this problem exist.
 

Mariot

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When Leonel took power in 1996, he continued to massively deport illegal immigrants, but the outcry from local and foreign Human Rights groups and radical priests from the Catholic churches up and down the border, caused the Leonel administration to halt the massive deportations. According to Pons, this halt lead to a rumor spreading in many Haitian communities that they would not be deported if they crossed into Dominican territory illegally, and this caused an upsurge in the flow of illegal immigration from Haiti.

During Hip?lito Mej?a's administration (2000-2004), the same hands off policy continued regarding massive deportations, all due to the fear of the government being smeared by Human Rights groups and radicals. What made matters worst was a massive investment in infraestructure, schools, hospitals, etc that the Mej?a administration made along the Dominican border towns, further increasing the appeal to extremely impoverished Haitians. Mej?a also removed the restrictions that used to exist that prohibited undocumented people from getting medical care in public hospitals and their children getting an education in public schools, resulting a further incentive for Haitians with no real hospitals on the Haitian side and hardly any schools, to cross over to the DR, even if it was to take advantaged of these services paid for by Dominican taxpayers.

foreign pressures? what about dominican officials enriching themselves? i was personally told by a relative of a former dominican diplomat that the guy made his millions while serving in haiti selling visas and such.
besides, (illegal) immigrants working in low paid jobs and the informal economy is quite a normal, it is not a sign of an economy having problems absorbing an excess amount of immigrants, but rather an indication of their precarious position: they have less or no rights than the normal worker and therefore can be taken advantage of. where do you think illegal dominican immigrants are working in the us?
in my opinion, the problem of illegal immigration from haiti has less to do with foreign powers forcing the dominican government to accomodate haitians, and more with the formers unwillingness to regulate haitian immigration through laws and an agreement with haiti for populist reasons.
there was a comedian who made a joke saying that a government always needs an "asshole in the closet", that it can take out and publicly beat up whenever the need arises to distract the populace. the dominican asshole in the closet are illegal haitian immigrants.
 

NALs

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foreign pressures? what about dominican officials enriching themselves?
Corrupt government officials is included in the argument, but when the border needs to be tighten or shut, it is done with an exceptional level of efficiency. Just as happens with the electricity issue, where all circuits receive electricity 24/7 during Christmas season and election time, so too does the very effective shut down of the border when political instability hits Haiti proves that even with the corrupt officials, controlling the migration flow can be done and in a much better way than it has been done.

To deny that there are foreign pressures behind the 'laissez faire' attitude of the Dominican government in relation to border and migration control, is more a revelation of ignorance on this subject or a serious blindspot that arises whenever the issue comes up in discussion or in practice. Whichever of the two is affecting you, I suggest you drop it and see the forest for the trees.


Mariot said:
(illegal) immigrants working in low paid jobs and the informal economy is quite a normal
Yes, certainly true. But the Dominican-Haitian migration problem is quite peculiar to the island, hardly being experienced by any other society, if not on earth, certainly in the Americas.

If we were to take the United States as a reference of a 'normal' migration problem, then it becomes quite important to understand that the US has a total illegal immigrant population of 8 million, a total migrant population of 38 million, and a total population of over 303 million people. This means that 12% of the population is composed by immigrants, of which 21% are illegals; in other words, a paltry 3% of the total U.S. population are illegal immigrants.

The Dominican migration problem is much worst. Of a population of at least 9 million souls, almost 1 million are illegals either by having entered the country illegally or having been born to two illegal parents. That's 11% of the total population being illegal immigrants, with a growth rate that without a doubt must be much higher than the United State's, especially now that illegal migration flows into the US have been tamed thanks to the economic crisis, while Dominican illegal migration inflows have risen thanks to another political-economic-social-etc crisis next door.

And now comes the big factor. The United States is a country where the vast majority of its labor force works in the formal economy. In such context, your comment is quite understandable and makes for a very valid counterargument. Illegals normally work in the informal economy due to their illegal status. Such line of reasoning would lead anyone to believe that the problem is their illegal status, solve that and the issue goes away. This is true in the American context.

The Dominican context is different. As of October 2010, the Dominican Republic had a workforce (including all the illegals) of roughly 4.5 million people. Of those, 3,753,529 are employed. Of those, only 1,631,129 are employed in the formal economy while the remaining 2,122,400 are employed in the informal economy. Keep in mind, that those figures hide other factors such as underemployment, part-time employment, etc. Perhaps more importantly is noting that roughly 746,471 people of working age are not employed at all, with roughly 84% of those being capable of working if the opportunity presented itself (ie. are not full time students, handicapped, in the military, in jail, etc).

In a country where 57% of the employed workforce does so in the informal economy, the illegal status of over 90% of its immigrants is not the real issue here. In fact, legalization will do absolutely nothing in taking all those Haitians working in the informal economy and injecting them into the formal one.

But, legalization is truly out of the question, as long as border control remains relatively relaxed. The government chooses that option in lieu of imposing stricter migration control, thanks in no small part to foreign pressure that if ignored, could jeapordize all sorts of aid agreements, trade agreements, military assistance agreements, human rights agreements, so on and so forth.

This is really an either or issue. Either the border is permanently secured, as the Dominican government has proven capable of doing, even if it has been for very short periods of time to avoid international condemnation at times of Haitian political and social instability, and the government facilitates legalization processes; or the border remains relatively 'fluid' but legalization processes are tightened.

Do you see the connection here? Do you understand that the government's desire is to control the border to its fullest extent, but it simply can't because of certain interests? Do you see how the government's true desire is expressed by the either or senario that has plagued this issue ever since it attracted international attention and scrutiny?

Only now is Leonel Fern?ndez being quite vocal about the DR's incapability of absorbing Haiti's excess labor, but keep in mind that he's not running for re-election. Whatever criticisms that might create in the international arena towards his administration, will have no impact what-so-ever on the new PLD or PRD adminstration that would had been elected by this time next year.

If the Haitian population in the country is roughly 1 million, almost all in the country illegally and the vast majority are of working age; then you can extrapolate their weight in the 2.1 million of informal workers in the country, and attempt to imagine what this is doing to the wages in such sector. The informal economy is as close to pure free market economics as one can get; there's no government control or regulation in that sphere, except a tight control of immigration flows, of which the Dominican government can't excercise to its fullest potential and desires due to the reasons already explained here.

Mariot said:
it is not a sign of an economy having problems absorbing an excess amount of immigrants, but rather an indication of their precarious position: they have less or no rights than the normal worker and therefore can be taken advantage of.
The second response applies here as well.

Mariot said:
in my opinion, the problem of illegal immigration from haiti has less to do with foreign powers forcing the dominican government to accomodate haitians, and more with the formers unwillingness to regulate haitian immigration through laws and an agreement with haiti for populist reasons.
The first response applies here.
 

Mariot

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why than doesn't the dominican government enact laws to regulate haitian immigration, these messures could and should include better control at the border?
but a tighter control at the border would mean that they would have to invest money, pay border officials a wage that reduces small time corruption and they would have to get rid of generals and diplomats who can't be trusted (good luck with that one).

if there is one lesson on illegal immigration that applies world wide, it is the fact that you can't control your borders, it is simply not possible. sure, you can shut down your borders for a certain amount of time in during a crisis, but that is no long term solution. what governments have to do in that situation, whether it is the united states in the case of mexico, the eu and its mediterranean neighbours or the dominican republic in the case of haiti, is to accept that reality and find another solution for the proplem.
and even if the dr could shut down its borders permanently, haiti is a mess. migration, whether its legal or illegal, reduces pressure inside the country, because it reduces the amount of people fighting for an income and/or their lives. furthermore, it allows people to send money back home, which benefits their relatives and the countries economy. if the dominican government were able to shut down the border completely, pressure would rise in haiti, worsening the situation, and leading to another crisis, which would affect the dominican republic too, as every major crisis in haiti does. that is the reason for the dominican governments "laissez faire" attitude, and if they are not smart enough to see this for themselves, than foreigners telling them is the "pressure" you are talking about.
now, the dominican government does not have the resources to solve haitis internal problems and effectively reduce poverty there. and yes, in light of haitis history, the us and europe have quite a responsibility to help out. however, the sad truth of the international system is sad neither haiti nor the dr are important enough to raise serious us or eu security concerns, the only reason that would prompt them to invest a large enough amount of money and interest into the problem. the problem is quite important for the dominican republic though, which means you can't get rid of haiti as a neighbor, are stuck with the situation on your own, and need to stop complaining. find a smart solution to the problem, or try out shutting down your borders and see what it leads to.
 
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Naked_Snake

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now, the dominican government does not have the resources to solve haitis internal problems and effectively reduce poverty there. and yes, in light of haitis history, the us and europe have quite a responsibility to help out. however, the sad truth of the international system is sad neither haiti nor the dr are important enough to raise serious us or eu security concerns, the only reason that would prompt them to invest a large enough amount of money and interest into the problem.

They will become important enough, trust me on this, specially if/when the socioeconomic dinamic of the eastern part of the island begins to resemble the one currently going on at the western part, at which point there will be not enough coastguards to contain the avalanche of refugees that will surely hit the Florida/Puerto Rican/Jamaican/Bahamian coasts. As a Jamaican economist once said, the Haitian socioeconomic malaise is a Caribbeanwide problem, and it's time for it to be treated as such and not only as an exclusively Hispaniolan one.
 

Mariot

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i don't think so. look at the earthquake, that was the greatest tragedy in about a hundred years, yet interest vanished after a couple of month. hispanola is an island, which means about half of the refugees will drown, and the us coastguard is allready picking up cubans from out of the ocean, they will probably be able to deal with haitians and dominicans as well.
dr and haiti are small countries. if worst comes to worst the international community can just send in troops and take over the government, just as they have done before. the dominican government on the other hand should have a vital interest in preventing that situation from happening.
 

Naked_Snake

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i don't think so. look at the earthquake, that was the greatest tragedy in about a hundred years, yet interest vanished after a couple of month. hispanola is an island, which means about half of the refugees will drown, and the us coastguard is allready picking up cubans from out of the ocean, they will probably be able to deal with haitians and dominicans as well.
dr and haiti are small countries. if worst comes to worst the international community can just send in troops and take over the government, just as they have done before. the dominican government on the other hand should have a vital interest in preventing that situation from happening.

Dude, the difference between Cuba and Haiti is like the one between night and day. The Cubans might be facing hard times economically speaking, but their ordeal is very different from the dropping dead from hunger, violence or curable diseases that the Haitians have as their every day bread. Bottomline, the only thing that is preventing a nationwide exodus to Florida on the part of the Haitians is the fact that they have still a somewhat functional side of the island to which they can flee to, but what do you think will happen when that option is taken out of the picture?
 

Naked_Snake

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Dude, the difference between Cuba and Haiti is like the one between night and day. The Cubans might be facing hard times economically speaking, but their ordeal is very different from the dropping dead from hunger, violence or curable diseases that the Haitians have as their every day bread. Bottomline, the only thing that is preventing a nationwide exodus to Florida on the part of the Haitians is the fact that they have still a somewhat functional side of the island to which they can flee to, but what do you think will happen when that option is taken out of the picture?

I forgot to add governmental protection against the weather (hurricanes, floods, etc.) which the Cubans have and in Haiti (and also the DR) shines for its absence.
 

Mariot

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i didn't say that it's the same thing. my point was there is an ocean to cross, which would have a dramatic impact on the number of refugees that would make it. greater poverty in haiti means even less adequate vehicles for transportation. la hispanola is a small island, which would make it easier to contain the problem, even if you had to send in troops. my main argument however is, that it is neither in the interest of the dominican government to wait for the international community to step in, nor to blame their inadequate handling of the problem on foreign pressure. permanently shutting down the border would simply be foolish.
 

Ezequiel

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i didn't say that it's the same thing. my point was there is an ocean to cross, which would have a dramatic impact on the number of refugees that would make it. greater poverty in haiti means even less adequate vehicles for transportation. la hispanola is a small island, which would make it easier to contain the problem, even if you had to send in troops. my main argument however is, that it is neither in the interest of the dominican government to wait for the international community to step in, nor to blame their inadequate handling of the problem on foreign pressure. permanently shutting down the border would simply be foolish.

You must be a blood thirst American that want to solve every problem militarily, no wonder the US has so many enemies. I want to see the US sending troops to China and Russia, two countries with the same military power.
 

Mr_DR

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DR needs no border control

DR does not need a border, all that needs to be done is apply the the same laws that the US is hitting illegal migration with.

Over 200,000 illegal immigrants left the state of Az when Arizona had their anti-migration laws passed.

The US is criminalizing anyone entering the country illegally

It slaps a 25,000 dollars fine per immigrants that they find you hired or are simply providing shelter to,

The US slaps you with heavy fines and jail time if they catch you providing any form of help even if it is just translating, filling paperwork, shelter, giving an illegal immigrant a ride or even feeding them.

In the US many states and local cops now have the authority to ask immigrants for their migration documents or status if they suspect you are illegal, and arrest you and deport you if you are.

In the US they just passed a law that cops that allows cops to arrest immigrants when found in local or private places.

It is getting so hard for immigrants that many are already planning their trips to go back home because now they can't even hide or run anymore as more and more states approve more anti-immigrant laws.
The DR needs to do the same thing.
 

NALs

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mariot said:
why than doesn't the dominican government enact laws to regulate haitian immigration, these messures could and should include better control at the border?
Immigration Law 285-04

Article 17: Paragraph 3 of the Constitution revised in 2010

mariot said:
if there is one lesson on illegal immigration that applies world wide, it is the fact that you can't control your borders, it is simply not possible.
I’ve been wondering why a few years ago it was quite normal to hear of terrorist attacks, almost on a daily basis, somewhere in Israel. The news was just filled with those stories, day in and day out. Then they became serious about controlling the flow at their borders, particularly with the West Bank, and turned a deaf ear to the international community (being backed economically by the US is always a plus when doing the deaf ear ‘thing’); and voila, terrorist blowing themselves all over Israel, killing hundreds of Israelis at a time, are now a very rare event.

But, I guess you’re right, mariot. It’s simply not possible to control borders.

Is the fence effective?

16.jpg

The fence makes the difference

mariot said:
if the dominican government were able to shut down the border completely, pressure would rise in haiti, worsening the situation, and leading to another crisis, which would affect the dominican republic too, as every major crisis in haiti does.
Yes, every Haitian crisis affects the DR via massive migration flows precisely due to a hands off approach to guarding the border; but if the border is properly guarded (see response prior to this one), then such effects can be reduced to a negligible level.

And pressure would rise in Haiti, if the Haitian government doesn’t take its role seriously. A little pressure with no exit for the steam could be what’s needed for the Haitian government to get its act together. If that fails, the international community would have to intervene. In such case, foreign military intervention is the best possible solution since Haiti has never been in disarray in any of the direct military/political interventions the country has been subjected at various times in its history.

mariot said:
the dominican government does not have the resources to solve haitis internal problems and effectively reduce poverty there.
Ok then, you fully understand the issue, which naturally leads to this: What exactly are your arguing for?

There’s nothing the DR can do to save Haiti and its people, absolutely nothing. The help and solidarity during the aftermath of the earthquake has proven to be great for publicity, but did it made a visible dent in reducing the number of people living in tents in Port-au-Prince, one year after the earthquake?

Are Haitians now eating healthier and drinking clean water thanks to the massive help the Dominican government and people have given during the past year and some months?

Do Haitians no longer fear raping gangs, drug traffickers controlling entire neighborhoods, and other degradations in quality of life and public safety?

Is Port-au-Prince starting to look like the ‘Paris of the Caribbean?’

The answers are no, no, no, no and no; and to all other questions regarding Haitian wellbeing and Dominican help, it will continue to be NOOOOO.

So what exactly is your stance in this argument? If you're not trying to impose the Haitian problem on the Dominican Republic, then I guess we were done ever since I published the OP.

In the 1960s the world didn't need another Cuba, in the 2010s it doesn't need another Haiti. With one of each is more than enough.
 

Mariot

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You must be a blood thirst American that want to solve every problem militarily, no wonder the US has so many enemies. I want to see the US sending troops to China and Russia, two countries with the same military power.

i am not an american, i'm not bloodthirsty, and i'm not promoting military intervention. i'm saying that is what will happen if worst comes to worst. since neither the dr nor haiti have the means for effective resistance. it's also what the us has done every time there was a crisis on the island that was big enough to raise security concerns. my idea of the situation would be for the international community to either stop meddling completely, or to stop cooperating with the corrupt local elite, invest with a view to the needs of the haitian population and generally to take a real interest in what happens in haiti before it is too late.

I?ve been wondering why a few years ago it was quite normal to hear of terrorist attacks, almost on a daily basis, somewhere in Israel. The news was just filled with those stories, day in and day out. Then they became serious about controlling the flow at their borders, particularly with the West Bank, and turned a deaf ear to the international community (being backed economically by the US is always a plus when doing the deaf ear ?thing?); and voila, terrorist blowing themselves all over Israel, killing hundreds of Israelis at a time, are now a very rare event.

But, I guess you?re right, mariot. It?s simply not possible to control borders.

lol, yeah right, build a fence, that will solve your problems.
i think that as far as equipment, discipline, leadership and training goes, guardia nacional and isreali military are absolutely on par. and with the amount of money the dr government invests into erecting and maintaining construction, that fence would be insurmountable and last for at least the next two hundred years.
you are aware though that bombing terrorists pose a totally different kind of threat, and that there is a far greater amount of illegal immigrants trying to cross the border than there are terrorists trying to bomb in israel? how are the statistics for the fence the us build on their border?
 

NALs

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The US border ‘fence’ can’t be compared with the Israeli.

The US border fence is filled with gaps like this one (in fact, most of the US border doesn’t even have much of a fence at all):

broken-border-fence2.jpg


And in many areas is composed of this material:

c323ed96f63fc1c3c6336ab5e1bc_grande.jpg


And this material:

alg_border.jpg


Compare that with the Israeli fence which is much more complete and will cover its entire border with the West Bank, already covers its border with Gaza and this year will begin constructing a new fence along its Egyptian border. Plus, much of it looks like this:

QalqilyaWall.jpg


israel_wall_tower_2_UFNlj_3868.jpg


Excuse my chuckle, I simply couldn't contain myself at such comparison attempt.

I do agree with you on one thing, the Israeli army is definitely one of the best in the world, in part due to the constant ‘practice’ and ‘high alert’ due to the very elevated terrorist threat. However, that such a powerful army needs a fence of such nature to be much more efficient in controlling the terrorists says something concerning how much more a fence is necessary on the Dominican-Haitian border.

Especially when we all know the Dominican military and Cesfront are nowhere near as good as the Israelis. Plus, Israel doesn’t really have an illegal immigration problem, and judging by their fence that’s in place and expanding, will not have one any time soon.

Heck, the fence built in Israel looks just like the fences being built in the new ‘reformed’ Dominican prisons, like this one recently inaugurated in Hig?ey:

Nueva-Carcel-de-Higuey.jpg


I understand you want to make the Dominican Republic responsible for Haiti’s problem, but it’s not a Dominican problem. Never was, never will; and even if it was a Dominican problem, there is nothing anyone can do to fix it, except for the Haitians themselves with the hands of the international community.

If the international community doesn’t help, then the island is doomed. And if that’s what the future holds for the entire island, oh well. Time to make as much money as possible until the bomb explodes, and when it does, life continues in Miami, Barcelona, Panam?, etc. It sure is better to look at a mess with no solution on television, in comforts far far away. That would be smarter than attempting to 'help' solve a problem that didn't belong to you in the first place, was put on your shoulders by force, and regardless what anyone does, in the end has no solution.
 
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Mariot

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The US border ‘fence’ can’t be compared with the Israeli.

The US border fence is filled with gaps like this one (in fact, most of the US border doesn’t even have much of a fence at all):

broken-border-fence2.jpg

i spent considerable time at the us mexican border, so i know that fence. that was my whole point. you and i know that that is what the dominican fence would look like. besides, the dr is located on an island, so what are you going to do? sorround the whole country with a fence?

i don't want to make it a dominican problem, i'm trying to point out that it clearly is a dominican problem, as evidenced by dominicans constantly complaining about haiti. saying haiti is not a dominican problem, please international community step in is not going to cut it. haiti poses a threat to dominican security, and dominican security is a responsibility of the dominican government. other governments don't care, because haiti is no security risk for them. putting into your constitution that children of illegal immigrants will not be dominicans is not a regulation of illegal migration, it's only prolonging the problem. these children will have no secure status, therefore they will not get an education, and hence they will resort to begging, working in the informal economy and crime.
if indeed foreign pressure is preventing you from solving that problem, than you need to ask yourself why are we susceptible to foreign pressure. maybe it is because we are borrowing ridiculously large amounts of money to spent them on elections, our corrupt elite and mega projects we have no use for. than you could get your budget in order, which would make you more independent from foreign interests and build your fence. than afterwards, when you realize that the costs for maintaining that fence are too high, and shutting down your borders didn't work, you can try and find another solution, independent from foreign pressures. investing money n it is a good start, which you would be able to do, because you no longer have to spend half your budget on dept payments.
 

NALs

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mariot said:
you and i know that that is what the dominican fence would look like.
I?m sure that?s what the detractors of the Israeli fence were hoping for. Unfortunately for them, what was actually built turns out to be quite effective.

mariot said:
besides, the dr is located on an island, so what are you going to do? sorround the whole country with a fence?
Everyone will not be willing to turn to the seas in an attempt of escaping Haiti. An Israeli style border fence would effectively raise the bar and put the notion of migrating to the DR at the same level as is migration to Cuba, Jamaica or beyond.

mariot said:
as evidenced by dominicans constantly complaining about haiti.
Dominicans constantly complain about illegal Haitian immigration, Haiti itself is hardly given any thoughts.

mariot said:
haiti poses a threat to dominican security
The problems of Haiti poses a threat to the stability of the whole island if the DR is forced to carry that cross. Read the last respond in this post.

mariot said:
other governments don't care, because haiti is no security risk for them.
Exactly, Haiti is no security risk for any other government and neither for the Dominican Republic. But illegal Haitian immigration IS a threat to the Dominican Republic, to Cuba, to the United States, to the Bahamas, to the French West Indies, to Jamaica; and every other country/territory where illegal immigration from Haiti has been identified by their government as a serious problem to be dealt with.

For some countries containment is the only viable option given its economic and government budget constraints, while other countries can greatly afford to cause profound change in Haiti but choose to do the bare minimum.

mariot said:
putting into your constitution that children of illegal immigrants will not be dominicans is not a regulation of illegal migration, it's only prolonging the problem. these children will have no secure status, therefore they will not get an education, and hence they will resort to begging, working in the informal economy and crime.
Haitian children are getting an education because the admittance process into a public school is strictly forbidden to take legal status into consideration. What the constitution says is only a small part of the disincentive towards illegal immigration. There?s the migration law, which clearly states the procedure with which migration issues are to be dealt with.

mariot said:
when you realize that the costs for maintaining that fence are too high, and shutting down your borders didn't work, you can try and find another solution, independent from foreign pressures.
Aside from the Haitians solving their own problem with help from the international community, there are no other solutions. Plus, a fence like the one Israel is building has a simple and low maintenance cost. This is not a road that needs to be repaved every year or other structures that mainly lose their aesthetic aspects with lack of maintenance, but the integrity of such structures and their functionality remains.

This is nothing more than a reinforced concrete fence, not meant to be an architectural beauty. Just like the Citadel in northern Haiti has survived the ravages of time, despite scant maintenance, so too would a well constructed Israeli style fence.

mariot said:
investing money n it is a good start, which you would be able to do, because you no longer have to spend half your budget on dept payments.
The Dominican government and its tax payers are not responsible for the Haitian government?s constituents. And even if it was forced to take care of the entire island, the Dominican budget wouldn?t be enough to do much. At the very best, the Dominican side would degrade considerably.

Take a look at the following government budgets on a per person basis (in US dollars):

Dom Rep: $700
Jamaica: $1,379
Puerto Rico: $1,750
Cuba: $4,273
USA: $6,386
Canada: $17,824
France: 18,462

Look what happens under the when Haiti?s problems are added to each country independently:

Dom Rep: $355 (50% decline)
Jamaica: $315 (77%)
Puerto Rico: $511 (71%)
Cuba: $2,238 (48%)
United States: $6,192 (3%)
Canada: $13,773 (23%)
France: $16,000 (13%)

The numbers speak for themselves, and all of those countries except Puerto Rico and Canada, are threatened with the illegal immigration flow from Haiti. They all deal with Haiti in the same way. While some are forced due to not being able to afford Haiti?s problems (Dom Rep, Cuba, Jamaica, etc), for others it?s more of a choice (USA, etc).

Taking Haiti?s problems would decline the Dominican budget on a per capita basis by 50%; causing a very serious degradation of Dominican infrastructure, institutions and quality of life that would threaten the social and political stability of the whole island. Plus Haiti?s gain will be negligible.

On the other hand, the USA would only see a 3% decline with practically no impact in the USA, but dramatic changes all over Haiti. This would be the best deal on the list, since it has practically no effect in the rich country but a very profound effect in the impoverished one.

France would see a 15% decline, which would most likely have a moderately negative effect in France, but a considerably positive effect all over Haiti. In fact, Haiti?s problems becoming a responsibility of France would grant the Caribbean nation the greatest benefits that it could have with any of the countries listed.

This is before deducting the fixed expenses and obligations for each government.

The fundamental basis of your argument is a very big reason for why Haiti failed. They need to start creating wealth from which to live from rather than ransacking other people?s wealth (first they destroyed their own capitalist base and a good deal of its environment, and now are on the prowl for other countries stuff.) This resembles a virus that needs to invade healthy cells from which to suck all the valuable stuff to procreate, and then the offspring destroy the cell as they spring into a life dedicated to searching for new cells to repeat the process again.

The question that one is making: what will happen when there are no more cells to destroy? How will the virus survive?

I?m basically done arguing this with you since we?re simply going in circles, evidence that your argument is mute. You seem to want to go around the bush, making assumptions that in your mind would lead to a unification of the island or greater involved of the DR with Haiti. It?s very clear you know not much will be accomplished with this, except a serious degradation of quality of life on the Dominican side. It?s almost as if you perceive this as one more act of anti-Haitianism; rather than what it is, protecting from a massive disaster that could sink the whole island if nothing is done to contain it, since there are no solutions to Haiti?s problems without the cooperation of the international community.

The data speak for themselves.

So, keep beating around the bush if you like.
 

puryear270

Bronze
Aug 26, 2009
935
82
0
Not sure what the solution is...

Take a look at the following government budgets on a per person basis (in US dollars):

Dom Rep: $700
Jamaica: $1,379
Puerto Rico: $1,750
Cuba: $4,273
USA: $6,386
Canada: $17,824
France: 18,462

Look what happens under the when Haiti?s problems are added to each country independently:

Dom Rep: $355 (50% decline)
Jamaica: $315 (77%)
Puerto Rico: $511 (71%)
Cuba: $2,238 (48%)
United States: $6,192 (3%)
Canada: $13,773 (23%)
France: $16,000 (13%)

The numbers speak for themselves, and all of those countries except Puerto Rico and Canada, are threatened with the illegal immigration flow from Haiti. They all deal with Haiti in the same way. While some are forced due to not being able to afford Haiti?s problems (Dom Rep, Cuba, Jamaica, etc), for others it?s more of a choice (USA, etc).

Taking Haiti?s problems would decline the Dominican budget on a per capita basis by 50%; causing a very serious degradation of Dominican infrastructure, institutions and quality of life that would threaten the social and political stability of the whole island. Plus Haiti?s gain will be negligible.

On the other hand, the USA would only see a 3% decline with practically no impact in the USA, but dramatic changes all over Haiti. This would be the best deal on the list, since it has practically no effect in the rich country but a very profound effect in the impoverished one.

France would see a 15% decline, which would most likely have a moderately negative effect in France, but a considerably positive effect all over Haiti. In fact, Haiti?s problems becoming a responsibility of France would grant the Caribbean nation the greatest benefits that it could have with any of the countries listed.

This is before deducting the fixed expenses and obligations for each government.

These are fascinating figures, and they are probably accurate. But I'm always leery when reading such figures, because there are so many variables to consider.

At any rate, I see the reality of Haitians coming to the DR every day.

Many people have posted on this forum about the possibility of the Haiti and the DR being formed into one naiton, and nearly everyone agrees that it is not a good idea. But from what I am seeing, the movement of so many persons from west to east is a slow process with the same end result. At some point, Dominicans will have to decide if they wish for this process to continue - if it isn't too late.

In the United States, if you look closely at the immigration issue, for many years, immigration laws were enforced with a wink and a nod. Illegally present aliens were hired without any reprecussions to employers or employees, and the country became dependant on cheap labor. Only when the workers began protesting for their rights did the anti-immigrant wave begin.

The main reason that illegal immigration to the United States has declined over the past four years is because of tighter enforcement along the border (partially in response to the drug wars in Mexico) and the poor economic outlook for American workers. The Arizona law has yet to be enforced.
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
16,350
1,358
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Nals, I am at a loss to understand your figures...how you got the figures or even what they mean..

if you are making a case for a wall.. well.. really.. that might be a very good for a lot of tax money to go into building it..

and then, it would take maybe four hours for the buscones and border guards to organize transport up and over it..

really ...


I agree with the article that the DR is bearing a burden for the immigrants.. or not? Are they really a net drain? Who picks the crops? who picks the sugar? who builds the buildings? SOMEBODY wants them here/

rather, the DR should continue, as it is doing, in being a lead player in the redevelopment of Haiti.

There are many roads and schools and houses to be build

many agricultural specialists needed

much much work to be done

and money to do it.

Home
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,368
3,150
113
Nals, I am at a loss to understand your figures...how you got the figures or even what they mean..
As can be clearly seen further up in the thread, Mariot started to mention government budget and how the DR should get rid of the debt and use the extra money to spend in Hait?. So, what better way to knock down his idiotic idea by presenting how much money each government receives from their population on a per capita basis. Then one would have to deduct all the other expenses such as payment on the debt, public education, public health, etc. But, for the sake of simplicity, those expenses were ignored to get the highest figure possible, for which the DR resulted in roughly US$700. If the Dominican budget was to be shared with Haiti, per capita it would result US$355.

Now, deduct all the fixed expenses and obligations, on a per capita basis, from that figure (ie. debt, public works, etc - assuming only the current Dominican expenses, obvious the figures would be considerably lower if the Haitian necessities were also included) and then we can see how much money will be available, per person, to spend on Haiti.

My message is that, not only is Mariot's proposition completely impossible to do since it will result in negligible enhancements in Haiti and considerable degradations in the DR; but that he's simply debating for the sake of debating. He doesn't want to accept that there is nothing the DR can do to fix Haiti's problems. Those problems will only be fixed once Haiti and the international community together decide to develop Haiti.

If the DR is left with this issue, the effect of Dominican help will be no different from what happened immediately after the earthquake. Millions spent and in the end, whatever few changes have been seen in Haiti are certainly not due to the Dominican help.

Most of the sick and injured remained in Haiti. Most of the people that moved into tents in 2010 are still living in tents. Haitian reality is has hardly changed, the massive Dominican help notwithstanding.

Now, if what he wants is for some other country to help Haiti and for that help to actually have a visible and positive effect, then why not go after other countries that had much to do with Haiti in the not so distant past. There are countries that collect much more revenue on a per capita basis than does the DR and Haiti combined, and, in theory, would be able to spend much more money on Hait? while not causing havoc at home. Not so with the DR or any other country in the Caribbean.

Capice?

Budgets

Populations
 
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