Need Help with a simple, but important legal Question

george1 · Oct 23, 2012

Good afternoon,

As in the past do I hope I can rely on the beautiful folks of this forum for the proper answers.
Here arre the facts in a Nutshell;
I got married 1990 in Broooklyn, NY.
Me and my soon to be ex--wife are long term residents in this magnificent country.
I was for the final time infront of divorce court today. My attorney who had the original marriage certicate in her hands for months now wanted to deposit translated versions in Court. The court said they must be notarized by the Embassy.
Minutes afterwards she calls me and tells me that we need a new, updated original certificate of marriage from NYC. I told her that I did not hear the Judge or his assistant request that. Her response was that neither me or my current Dominican partner are legal professionals and therefore did not understand what was requested.
I called the according NYC office immediately. I spoke to two different and very professional soounding folks. The phone was picked up after two rings (What a far cry from the Dinkins admin.)
They could not assure me if I needed a new Marriage Certificate, they said that this would be the DR who would make that decision. They stated it would take four weeks time after the request arrived for me to receive a new version of the marriage certificate.
I honestly do not understand where I am at. A new Ceificate makes little sense to me, plus the Judge will not wait that long. Nothing can be more original than an original and my original is in perfect coondition.
Please help if yu know the answers to this riddle.
Thank you in advance..

bronzeallspice · Oct 23, 2012

I've never heard of needing an updated original certificate of marriage.Is it possible that
you,yourself can go to court and ask the judge or his assistant if this is true.It seems to me
you are being giving the run around.

george1 · Oct 23, 2012

bronzeallspice said:
I've never heard of needing an updated original certificate of marriage.Is it possible that
you,yourself can go to court and ask the judge or his assistant if this is true.It seems to me
you are being giving the run around.

I believe you are 100% correct. I will be there first thing tomorrrow mornning myself and ask the judge directly about what is needed and then deposit it myself.
Something smells very fishy especially since she also offered a solution: I have a friend in NYC who can get the document for us, but it is going to cost a bit.

william webster · Oct 23, 2012

Ask the judge to define an"updated" marriage certificate.

Then explain you only married once and never "updated" the marriage.... let alone renewed your vows.

george1 · Oct 24, 2012

william webster said:
Ask the judge to define an"updated" marriage certificate.

Then explain you only married once and never "updated" the marriage.... let alone renewed your vows.

As planned I went to the court house today. It was confirmed that I need a different version of the Marrige Certificate, it needs what was referred to as "to have an Apostelar" seal.
I was told that I can either get it from the country where I got married or I can use the Canceleria here. So, after seeking the original from the attorney this afternooon I will be off to the Canceleria tomorrow morning.

william webster · Oct 24, 2012

Aha, the old apostle bit..... the lawyer should have known that from the start.
From what I read here, EVERYTHING needs that for Official review.

george1 · Oct 24, 2012

william webster said:
Aha, the old apostle bit..... the lawyer should have known that from the start.
From what I read here, EVERYTHING needs that for Official review.

Incredible, but you are right. She only had 6 months with the documents in her hands to get the thing done. Hey, what are you gonna do? I hope I can get it done at the Canceleria tomorrow.

pdmlynek · Oct 24, 2012

george1 said:
Good afternoon,

As in the past do I hope I can rely on the beautiful folks of this forum for the proper answers.
Here arre the facts in a Nutshell;
I got married 1990 in Broooklyn, NY.
Me and my soon to be ex--wife are long term residents in this magnificent country.
I was for the final time infront of divorce court today. My attorney who had the original marriage certicate in her hands for months now wanted to deposit translated versions in Court. The court said they must be notarized by the Embassy.
Minutes afterwards she calls me and tells me that we need a new, updated original certificate of marriage from NYC. I told her that I did not hear the Judge or his assistant request that. Her response was that neither me or my current Dominican partner are legal professionals and therefore did not understand what was requested.
I called the according NYC office immediately. I spoke to two different and very professional soounding folks. The phone was picked up after two rings (What a far cry from the Dinkins admin.)
They could not assure me if I needed a new Marriage Certificate, they said that this would be the DR who would make that decision. They stated it would take four weeks time after the request arrived for me to receive a new version of the marriage certificate.
I honestly do not understand where I am at. A new Ceificate makes little sense to me, plus the Judge will not wait that long. Nothing can be more original than an original and my original is in perfect coondition.
Please help if yu know the answers to this riddle.
Thank you in advance..

George1, congratulations on your divorce!

Although I do not practice family law, nor do I know how things are done in DR, and my knowledge in this area is extremely limited, thus it is not rational to rely on anything that I post below, here are a couple of points that may be relevant to you.

(1) Typically, in order for a court or a governmental agency of one country/state to accept a legal document (such as a marriage certificate) of another country, an apostille is needed. This is a single page document from the secretary of state, or the state treasurer, or some other office, that essentially says that the legal document is genuine. The apostille is permanently attached to the legal document. Do NOT ever separate it from the marriage certificate (as some new legal secretaries who have never dealt with this sometimes do), because that would invalidate the apostille.
NYS Division of Corporations, State Records and UCC

(2) I think that the US embassy cannot issue the apostille; it must be issued by Secty of NY state. But what embassies do is to act as a conduit with governments in the US, so maybe the court meant that you should work contact Albany through the Embassy when it said that your marriage certificate “must be notarized by the Embassy”.

(3) It is not surprising that your attorney wants another marriage certificate to be issued. It is possible that the court may keep your marriage certificate on file and not give it back after the end of your divorce. Because some clients do not like to let go of their original documents, it is just as easy for the lawyer to request another original of the marriage certificate from the county/city clerk, who will forward it to the Secretary of State for authentication.

(4) It is also possible that your marriage certificate is insufficient document for DR’s purposes. This happens with birth certificates, when the foreign country wants the long form (BC issued by county), and not the short form (the document issued by the hospital). With marriage certificates, the document that the foreign country wants is the one issued by the state, and not the one issued by the church at the time of the wedding.

(5) There is a possibility that your attorney lost your marriage certificate, or it has been destroyed, and thus needs another copy of the certificate.

(6) It would have made sense to ask Albany for an apostille sooner, like when you started the proceedings, but it is possible that there was a reason for the delay. Some Latin American countries (I don’t know if DR is one) require very fresh apostilles; some Secretaries of State in the US actually have expedited services for such countries.

(7) I am surprised at the attitude of your lawyer. Her response, that neither you or your current Dominican partner are legal professionals and therefore did not understand, is elitist and exhibits poor client service. Such an attitude, which is common among the bar, is one of the reasons why people hate lawyers. She should have explained to you anything that you wanted to know and charged you for her time.

george1 · Oct 25, 2012

pdmlynek said:
George1, congratulations on your divorce!

Although I do not practice family law, nor do I know how things are done in DR, and my knowledge in this area is extremely limited, thus it is not rational to rely on anything that I post below, here are a couple of points that may be relevant to you.

(1) Typically, in order for a court or a governmental agency of one country/state to accept a legal document (such as a marriage certificate) of another country, an apostille is needed. This is a single page document from the secretary of state, or the state treasurer, or some other office, that essentially says that the legal document is genuine. The apostille is permanently attached to the legal document. Do NOT ever separate it from the marriage certificate (as some new legal secretaries who have never dealt with this sometimes do), because that would invalidate the apostille.
NYS Division of Corporations, State Records and UCC

(2) I think that the US embassy cannot issue the apostille; it must be issued by Secty of NY state. But what embassies do is to act as a conduit with governments in the US, so maybe the court meant that you should work contact Albany through the Embassy when it said that your marriage certificate “must be notarized by the Embassy”.

(3) It is not surprising that your attorney wants another marriage certificate to be issued. It is possible that the court may keep your marriage certificate on file and not give it back after the end of your divorce. Because some clients do not like to let go of their original documents, it is just as easy for the lawyer to request another original of the marriage certificate from the county/city clerk, who will forward it to the Secretary of State for authentication.

(4) It is also possible that your marriage certificate is insufficient document for DR’s purposes. This happens with birth certificates, when the foreign country wants the long form (BC issued by county), and not the short form (the document issued by the hospital). With marriage certificates, the document that the foreign country wants is the one issued by the state, and not the one issued by the church at the time of the wedding.

(5) There is a possibility that your attorney lost your marriage certificate, or it has been destroyed, and thus needs another copy of the certificate.

(6) It would have made sense to ask Albany for an apostille sooner, like when you started the proceedings, but it is possible that there was a reason for the delay. Some Latin American countries (I don’t know if DR is one) require very fresh apostilles; some Secretaries of State in the US actually have expedited services for such countries.

(7) I am surprised at the attitude of your lawyer. Her response, that neither you or your current Dominican partner are legal professionals and therefore did not understand, is elitist and exhibits poor client service. Such an attitude, which is common among the bar, is one of the reasons why people hate lawyers. She should have explained to you anything that you wanted to know and charged you for her time.

Wow, the highly qualified advice received here is what makes this Forum essential for anyone living on this Island. Thank you very much! Due to the Storm i will continue my quest tomorrow. i will keep you pposted.

Fabio J. Guzman · Oct 28, 2012

George1 is correct.

In order for Dominican courts to accept a legal document (such as a marriage certificate) of another country, an apostille ir required, or, in case the foreign country does not issue apostilles, authentication at the Dominican Consulate in that country. Apostilled documents must then be authenticated at the Attorney General's Office in Santo Domingo.

Also, the marriage certificate required is the one issued by a government authority. Marriage certificates issued by a church are not accepted unless validated by a government authority.

george1 · Oct 29, 2012

Fabio J. Guzman said:
George1 is correct.

In order for Dominican courts to accept a legal document (such as a marriage certificate) of another country, an apostille ir required, or, in case the foreign country does not issue apostilles, authentication at the Dominican Consulate in that country. Apostilled documents must then be authenticated at the Attorney General's Office in Santo Domingo.

Also, the marriage certificate required is the one issued by a government authority. Marriage certificates issued by a church are not accepted unless validated by a government authority.

Thank you once again for your advice. I just came from the Canceleria and they confirmed the same thing. I must send it to NYC in order to have someone apostillar the Document there. I do not have any family left in NYC. If anyone by any chance knows a reliable person that would do it, of course for a compansation, I would be delighted to talk.

pdmlynek · Oct 30, 2012

george1 said:
Thank you once again for your advice. I just came from the Canceleria and they confirmed the same thing. I must send it to NYC in order to have someone apostillar the Document there. I do not have any family left in NYC. If anyone by any chance knows a reliable person that would do it, of course for a compansation, I would be delighted to talk.

You do not need someone at NYC; everything is typically handle via mail or FedEx.

You do not send anything to NYC. This is a state matter. You go through Albany. For more information, see: NYS Division of Corporations, State Records and UCC

I do not know your situation, but typically a person has two choices: either send in the original marriage certificate to have Apostille attached thereto; or request another marriage certificate which is then sent to state for apostille attachment. Please note, that it is possible that you wont get your marriage certificate back from the DR court, so if you want to keep the original, you need to go through the second route.

george1 · Oct 30, 2012

pdmlynek said:
You do not need someone at NYC; everything is typically handle via mail or FedEx.

You do not send anything to NYC. This is a state matter. You go through Albany. For more information, see: NYS Division of Corporations, State Records and UCC

I do not know your situation, but typically a person has two choices: either send in the original marriage certificate to have Apostille attached thereto; or request another marriage certificate which is then sent to state for apostille attachment. Please note, that it is possible that you wont get your marriage certificate back from the DR court, so if you want to keep the original, you need to go through the second route.

What you are saying is correct, but when I called NY, they confirmed that it will take up to seven weeks via Fed Ex. Due to the sleepy attitude of my lawyer, the judge will throw out the case in two weeks and I would need to start all over again. In was told, a person whom acvtually would go there can have it resolved within an hour.

pdmlynek · Oct 31, 2012

george1 said:
What you are saying is correct, but when I called NY, they confirmed that it will take up to seven weeks via Fed Ex. Due to the sleepy attitude of my lawyer, the judge will throw out the case in two weeks and I would need to start all over again. In was told, a person whom acvtually would go there can have it resolved within an hour.

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. If you have such a rush, take a look if there is service in New York City that would be able to do that for you.

If you really, really are in a pinch, and can't find anyone, let me know and I'll drive it there myself, and give it to you in person when I am in DR next week. I am an attorney in New Jersey, and do not have a NY bar, so I'd have to do it as a regular citizen. Unfortunately, it would take me pretty much the whole day, since I do not live near NYC, and I would have to charge you lots and lots of money. Sorry.

george1 · Nov 8, 2012

UPDATE ON THE EVER SO FUNNY LEGAL SITUATION.....
I met with my attorney last week in order to Brainstorm on how to get the Marriage Certicicate apostillared. Upon arrival she told me that mostlikely I do not have to worry about the Apostillar business, since a document was filed in court today by my ex-wife that I am divorced already as of Spring 2012. I told my attorney that this is impossible, i have been infront of no court at all or received any paperwork at all. She asked to give her a few days and she will have more clarity on the case and then wishes to talk to me.
I met with her yesterday, low and behold, yes I am divorced. The sneeky ex-wife sent all divorce papers to an old address of mine, eventghough she knows my current address very well. She tried to get the divorce done without my knowledge in order to have the fiing period for the Division de los Bienes expire in order for me to walk away empty handed (We own a house and property).
Her showing up for the divorce case that I filed was just an attempt to buy more time. Her attorney knew that in the last minute before sentencing he had to pull "the prior divorce rabbitt" out of his sleave in order to not make the judge upset. My lawyer told me it is being done all the time here.
In my humble opinion it is not only rediculious, but should be punishable to keep a whole court busy with a divorce case if she knew she is divorced already. My attorney told me it would not be worth the effort. But, maybe she just said that because she does not want to have egg on her face for not knowing the divorce had taken place already.
Very funny business....but on the bright side, I am out of that ordeal and i do not have to worry about the Apostillar business.....but, very strange indeed.

george1 · Nov 8, 2012

Would anyone have any input towards the legality of the ex-wifes behavior? Going through complete divorce court proceedings when in fact she completed the divorce already? Is this punishable by the courts at all? Thank you.

george1 · Nov 18, 2012

The end of the story for now is that my lawyer told me to take it like it as it is. If I should make a complaint against the abuse of the legal system by the ex wife the divorce might be overturned....Now on to the Division of the Bienes....I was told it can take up to two and a half years.

emilyyoung · Nov 19, 2012

Perhaps you should seek legal help from an attorney or law firm that have enough experience and reputation on family law, especially divorce. I agree with the previous posts. Seems your current attorney is just running around the mill. I have this friend who was in a big jam with her ex. I forgot about the details, but she said her attorney helped a lot to fix the problem. Perhaps you can schedule a consultation with them regarding your case with your "ex-wife." This is their website: Annapolis MD Family Law Attorneys | Maryland Divorce Lawyers | Wise & Donahue, PLC. I believe they have provided their contact information in the site. Good luck!

DBrown · Nov 20, 2012

I think there is nothing to make change with your origional marriage certificates or to get another new marriage certificate to resolve the divorce matter in court. You are clearly mis-guided by your lawer or some other person. You need to re-assure about the matter from judge or other concerned person.

Fabio J. Guzman · Nov 21, 2012

A divorce obtained without proper service can be annulled. In this case, the annullment can be petitioned in the same divorce proceeding initiated by you. Seek good legal advice on the best course of action: whether to accept your wife's irregular divorce or to go for its annulment.

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