The Sentence of the Constitutional Tribunal

Do you support the sentence of the Constitutional Tribunal?

  • Yes, I agree completely.

    Votes: 24 63.2%
  • I mostly agree, but it needs some changes.

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • I don't agree.

    Votes: 6 15.8%
  • Not sure / don't care

    Votes: 3 7.9%

  • Total voters
    38

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Enough time, information, and misinformation has been published about the sentence from the Constitutional Tribunal regarding the regularization of irregularly inscribed foreigners and their descendants. The Constitutional Tribunal doesn't have the legal power to make retroactive decisions, that's why all sentences from the CT are declaratory in nature, similar to paternal DNA tests that can only xlear up if a person is the parent or child of someone else, but the test can't possibly state that a person becomes the son of someone else from the day the test results are known. Under the same concept is how the CT works, because a person doesn't becommes the child of another the moment the test results are known; such person was the child of someone else since before the test, only that the test cleared up the confusion.

That's the gist behind the media war that exist regarding the sentence of the CT, with opponents of the ruling claiming that it's retroactive when in reality the CT can only make clarifications on laws already in existance, in this case the nationality articles in Dominican constitutions since 1929.

The other part of the issue was made public yesterday by the JCE. The institution claims that the revision of the almost 60,000 books of the Civil Registry from 1929 to 2007 has concluded and they discovered slightly more than 50,000 foreigners and their descendants registered regularly and irregularly. Also, the descendants of Haitians in the Civil Registry hoovers the 14,000 figure. These individuals will have their status regularized and for those who qualify, they will be able to opt for Dominican Citizenship. In some situations Dominican Citizenship will be granted automatically.

The sentence of the CT requires the regularization of those in the Civil Registry, not to those that don't appear in the books whether regular or irregular.

Anyway, it would be interesting to gauge the public opinion among DR1ers regarding this legal issue that can't be revoked, modified, or ignored.
 
May 12, 2005
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Have to agree. It's a tough situation but why does Haiti get a pass on not issuing bc's or providing a mechanism to get them?
 
Mar 1, 2009
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The foreign citizens that have been coming en masse regularly for decades, have made choices as adults. There choices of just living day to day and not urging their government to lend them a hand has resulted in this situation. It is their responsibility to take action not ours. Now European and American activists have taken upon themselves to foster this imaginary situation where supposedly millions are being abused and exploited. These are the same type of HUMANITARIAN activists that conjured up the war in Libya and Syria demonizing the government, blatantly lying and manipulating information. We don't need these type of so called Humanitarians or Human rights defenders. They do nothing but damage the reputation of such organizations by crying wolf constantly. They have actually made things worse, just as the obvious DESTABILIZATION of DR is taking place. Enough is enough.
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
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I mostly agree, but are of the opinion that bateyeros should be exempted (up to the year 2003).
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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Dominicans want ANY person with a drop of Haitian blood, deported back to Haiti, always have, always will!
They fail to realize that would mean most of THEM would have to go too!
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bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
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Criss, you are talking nonsense. There are many Dominican-Haitians in the DR
born to legal parents and therefore have Dominican citizenship.

The issue here is ILLEGALS.
 
Mar 1, 2009
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I keep saying to send 'em to PR, that way they'll reach the "land of the free" and learn how to say, "ayyyyyy benditooooo"....
I remember historically when boricuas used to come over in large amounts to DR, because then as now PR has no jobs and too many crazy, craaaaaaazy women so they came, Hostos, Betances, Balaguer's dad, Bosch's dad....They kept coming until a dude last name Colon arrived, we Dominicans finally said enough is enough.....
So we decided to send some of our guys and gals to even it up a bit!
So many have gone that now the Haitianos want in on it!!!!
Imagine that, creole being spoken in Mayaguez, San Juan, Ponce, el Junque, Toa Abajo, Vieques!!!
They would fill up Borinquen in a month.

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Gurabo444

Member
Nov 1, 2009
428
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Dominicans want ANY person with a drop of Haitian blood, deported back to Haiti, always have, always will!
They fail to realize that would mean most of THEM would have to go too!
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Cool no Haitian blood here, all you pitis can GTF out my country lol.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Some people believe that most Dominicans probably have Haitian ancestors, but in reality Haitian migration to the Dominican/Spanish part was, until the 1990s and 2000s quite light.

From 1697 to 1801, even though these were not Haitian proper (unlike Dominican sense of identity, the Haitian sense of ide tity arose after their independence not before and as such, we can't refer to people on the French side prior to 1804 as Haitians). There was some migration of slaves that escaped from the French part and this was even encouraged by the Spanish slave laws which were some of the most linient in history that made it easy for slaves in Spanish colonies to gain their freedom. Regarding the slaves from Saint Domingue, they were granted their freedom ass soon as they crossed into Santo Domingo (current DR). This was a point of contention with the French because they demanded that their runaway slaves be returned while the Spanish objected. Runaway slaves from Saint Domingue became free men and women, and subjects of the Spanish Crown with equal rights as was given to the Spanish themselves.

Many of these people became subsistence farmers and were not just left alone by the Spanish authorities, but also their freedom was protected by the Spanish Crown itself with the French understanding that any incursions into Santo Domingo in search of their former slaves would be cause for military retaliation because they were effectively attacking free Spanish sujects.

There are no reliable estimates how many people made use of what can be called our very own underground railroad, but it couldn't had been sufficient to alter the character of the Dominican population. Some former towns, like San Lorenzo de Los Mina (today its a neighborhood in Santo Domingo Este) was settled by runaway slaves from Saint Domingue. That town was created with permission of the Spanish authorities and they were left to live their lives as free men and women with equal rights as the rest of the Spanish population.

From 1801 to 1822 whatever amount of Haitians that migrated eastward must had been negligible. First, the military incursion by Touissant in 1801 and later the assassins Dessalines and Christophe in 1805 didn't left many Haitians on this side. If anything, whatever changes the Dominican population startd to experience was due to the emigration of some white, mixed race, and anyone else that felt threatened by the bloody invasions, especially the terrible one from 1805 when the Haitians attempted to commit genocide on the peaceful and innocent Dominican population.

From 1822 to 1844 the Haitians controlled Santo Domingo (current DR) with tens of thousands of Haitian military men. That was definitely the largest influx of Haitians into Dominican territory, plus the 6000 African Americans that arrived in the 1820s although most went back to the US; but, the occupation failed due to stupid laws such as prohibiting the Spanish language (during the French occupation from 1802 to 1809, everything was done in French and in Spanish), ruptured the relationship with the Vatican, tried to limit the holidays and cockfighting (before baseball cockfighting was the preferred sport among Dominicans), tried to taxed the population to pay the debt to France (Dominicans outright rejected paying for that under the excuse that we were never subjects of France, not even during the French occupation of 1802-1809), etc. To add salt to injury, Boyer's regime didn't give provisions to the Haitian troops stationed in the Dominican side and they developed the habit of demanding from the Dominican poppulation to give them food and other stuff, in many caases the Haitian troops engaged in outright theft especially from Dominican campesinos, in the process earning their repudiation from the population at large.

From 1844 to 1920s Haitian migration was also negligible. The fact that not a single foreigner that wrote about their visits to the DR (including Samuel Hazard in 1871) mentioned the presence of Haitian colonies anywhere in the DR is a reliable testament to this. Samuel Hazard did mentioned that there wer many black immigrants from the Britsh Caribbean in places like Puerto Plata and even mentioned the African American colony in Samana (he obviously mentioned them because they were numerous enough to be noticed), but nothing about a visible presence of Haitians. Also, the Census done in the early 20th +entury by the Americans had Puerto Ricans as the largest colony of foreigners in the country and Haitians weren't in the top 5. Most of the black foreigners were Cocolos from the Lesser Antilles.

From 1920s to 1980s Haitian migration was mostly controlled and never surpassed 100 000 at any time, they were overwhelmingly men and were restrained to the sugar plantations. Not much illegal migration took place, especially during the Trujillo years.

From 1980s to 2000s illegal migration picked up as political instability took over Haiti after Baby Doc's dictatorship collapsed. Since the 2000s the flow has increase and after the earthquake the DR has experienced the largest influx of illegals in all of its history, the colonial part included (the ruaway slaves from Saint Domingue).

Until the mid-20th century Haiti was better off than the DR and the Haitian population density was within the natural carrying capacity for the size of their territory. There were no pull or push factors for Haitian migration to DR and, not surprisingly, the Haitians didn't migrated eastward in sizeable numbers.

In colonial times there was a pull factor and that was automatic freedom as soon as the slaves crossed into the Spanish side, which was bigger than the current DR (53 000 km2 vs 48 000 km2 due to Haitians stealing 5 000 km2 that rightly belonged to us- valleys of Guava, la Miel, etc). But, their flow was not that great to alter the character of the population, otherwise at least the chroniclers from the time would had mentioned this in their writings.

Post mid-20th century an increasingly prosperous DR has become a pull factor while the falling apart of Haiti has become a push factor on Haitian migration and explains why its right now that the Spanish side of the island is seeing the largest influx of Francophone people.

Anyway, I think its safe to assume that most Dominicans don't have Haitian ancestry. The Spanish side of the island has been majority mulatto and freesince the mid-1600s, in the 1700s we had the largest influx of whites (Spaniards from Canary island accounted for much of the population growth during that century), in the 1800s there was an exodus of many whites, an influx of blacks, and after 1844 an influx of whites and after 1870s an influx of blacks. From 1930 to 1961 we had an influx of whites, post 1980s an influx of blacks. During those times, much racial mixing has taken place, but the current migration flow is uncomfortable because of Haiti's history of coveting the Dominican Territory and of using its people as chess pieces in its island expansion ambition, as we've seen with the loss of the 5 000 km2 of Guava.

To all of this we must add that among certain Haitians there is a feeling of hopelessness for Haiti and, at the sametime, envy for the progress the DR has achieved compared to them during the past half century. This is why its quite often that, at least it has been my experience, when some Haitians speak of Haiti's development, they always mention the DR as a sort of yardstick that they use to judge their own backwardness and the lost opportunities they had. I have never heard a Haitian compare their country to Jamaica or Bahamas or Trinidad or Barbados, all countries that have also developed much more than Haiti. Its the Domin ican development that catches their attention and, in some cases, I say envy too.

A few years ago I was reading an interview that was done to a Haitian and when asked about why the DR has gone ahead while Haiti has not, he said (and this is the only part that I still remember: "they still have kids walking barefoot."

In DR1 fashion; 'nuff said
 

Criss Colon

Platinum
Jan 2, 2002
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Good to see you have "Google" access!
NALS, when it comes to Dominicans believing they have no "Haitian Blood", ALWAYS Remember,
"Denile",is more than a river in Egypt!!!!!!
I NEVER met a dominican, even the blackest Dominican, who wasted any time before telling me about his "Espanol" grandfather, with "Ojos Azules", "Cabello Rubio", y "Nariz Fino"!!!!!!!
They always fail to mention, their "Abuelita' could not say "Perejil"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps., is it getting cold yet, up in your home in Connecticut????
Any plans to visit the DR this year???
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ps, The sad part is, "Nals", and the VAST majority of Dominicans, Actually Believe the nonsense he posted!!!!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,474
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There is such a thing as a misdiagnosis.

The fact is that an overview of the actual historical descriptions of the Dominican population from colonial times to the 20th Century leaves beyond a reasonable doubt that Haitian migration eastward was never massive until the 1980s with the collapse of the Haitian government and the crisis that ensued.

Then are the other lack of signs that points towards a much more limited contact between the two populations than many people want to accept. There is simply not much French or Francophone influences in any of the Dominican dialects. In the 1600s there was a sizeable population of Portuguese that settled in the Cibao and their influence exist today in the dialect of the Cibao.

And the written accounts of the many foreigners that visited the country since colonial times up to the 20th Century, the presence of Haitians on Dominican soil was not big enough to even merit a mention in those accounts, unlike the case with the Libertos, the Cocolos, or even the European traders.

The other" rationalization" that some people use to justify their belief of massive Haitian migration to Dominican territory, despite a lack of evidence, is that they compare the populations of Cuba and Puerto Rico. They assume PR and Cuba always looked as it does now, but in reality Cuba, PR, and DR were much more similar since all three were mulatto societies. Cuba and PR went through a whitening process during the second half of the 1800s due to the Cedula de Gracia de Spanish Crown put in effect to encourage white immigration to those two islands and many Spaniards migrated there practically up to the 20th Century, effectively whitening their populations and distancing their original racial composition that resembled the DR's.

In fact, when the French from Saint Domingue tried to explain why they turn their part of the island into the wealthiest colony in the world while Spanish Santo Domingo, Cuba, and PR languished in the most absolute poverty; the explanation the French came up with was that in the Spanish islands there were too many mixed blood people even mulattoes in government position that were worthy for "the best people." They claimed that since the French didn't mixed as much as the Spanish did and effectively kept the mixed race out of the important government positions, their racial superiority explained the difference in wealth. My point is that Cuba, PR, and DR were much more alike racially for most of the colonial history and only during the final century of Spanish rule did Cuba and PR went through a whitening phase. At the same time, written descriptions by foreigners that visited the DR in those times failed to mention that a visible presence of Haitians existed anywhere in the country, but they never failed to note the foreign colonies that did exist.
 

iluvdr

New member
Aug 24, 2004
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For all you heartless , racist SOB out there, I hope you take the time to view the video beneath !
This is possibly the worst type of human atrocity we have witness since World War I.
Shame on those who support this decision !!! The DR news medias financed by Nazis right extremist group are manipulating the truth and pretending that this ruling will fix things. Almost like when they told the Jews this was just a regular shower?!
The world is watching ! The international community is disgusted by the courts decision in DR. I know the Dominican people have a good heart and are God fearing people ! The silent majority will not stand for this ! God bless DR and it's people from what ever background or ancestry they come from . WE ARE ALL DOMINICANS !!!

Stateless in the Dominican Republic: Overview - YouTube
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,474
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The two latest articles (in Spanish). The first one is about the backing the sentence is receiving from the UN and the European Union; while the second article is an opinion where the more active role the DR government is taking to counter all the misinformation that has been spread internationally and how organizations are backing the DR as soon as they become aware what the sentence truly entails and not the lies that has been spread by certain groups.


ONU y UE reconocen la validez del fallo del TC - listindiario.com

La pava ya no pone donde pon?a - listindiario.com
 

iluvdr

New member
Aug 24, 2004
362
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Nal's for years we have debated on this forum and I have the most profound respect for your integrity and rationality.
I am very disappointed to see you promoting false information. Have you noted that both of your links are from Dominican bias News Papers ???

This is how the UN really feels about the courts decision :

Dominican Republic must not make Haiti-origin citizens stateless

The United Nations highlighted the anti-Haitian issue in 2007, when two U.N. human rights experts described the Dominican Republic as having a “profound and entrenched problem of racism and discrimination” against blacks in general and Haitians in particular.

United Nations News Centre - UN urges Dominican Republic to ensure citizens of Haitian origin do not lose nationality

“We are extremely concerned that a ruling of the Dominican Republic Constitutional Court may deprive tens of thousands of people of nationality, virtually all of them of Haitian descent, and have a very negative impact on their other rights,” Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), told reporters in Geneva.


Nal's you have access to the internet and are an educated individual. Please do your homework before you post the Dominican right wing propaganda.

My 2 cents...
 

bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
11,009
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Nal's for years we have debated on this forum and I have the most profound respect for your integrity and rationality.
I am very disappointed to see you promoting false information. Have you noted that both of your links are from Dominican bias News Papers ???

This is how the UN really feels about the courts decision :

Dominican Republic must not make Haiti-origin citizens stateless

The United Nations highlighted the anti-Haitian issue in 2007, when two U.N. human rights experts described the Dominican Republic as having a “profound and entrenched problem of racism and discrimination” against blacks in general and Haitians in particular.

United Nations News Centre - UN urges Dominican Republic to ensure citizens of Haitian origin do not lose nationality

“We are extremely concerned that a ruling of the Dominican Republic Constitutional Court may deprive tens of thousands of people of nationality, virtually all of them of Haitian descent, and have a very negative impact on their other rights,” Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), told reporters in Geneva.


Nal's you have access to the internet and are an educated individual. Please do your homework before you post the Dominican right wing propaganda.

My 2 cents...

And you need to do your homework better than this because what you posted was what the UN
said PRIOR to the Dominican ambassadors meeting with the UN to correct the falsehood that was
being maliciously promulgated by the Haitian government and the Haitian diaspora.

The ambassadors explained the Constitutional ruling to the UN and the fact that there will be no
statelessness because they are entitled to Haitian citizenship.
 
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bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
11,009
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Every Country has another Country they feel they are "Better Than"!!!!!
The DR, only has Haiti.
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Criss for you own protection do not let Dominicans know in the DR how you really feel about the
country and its people. Especially during this current crisis. Dominicans are very patriotic and
protective of their country and any negativism right now is not advisable.

Keep your rants on line only. Just giving you sound advice.
 

iluvdr

New member
Aug 24, 2004
362
2
0
And you need to do your homework better than this because what you posted was what the UN
said PRIOR to the Dominican ambassadors meeting with the UN to correct the falsehood that was
being maliciously promulgated by the Haitian government and the Haitian diaspora.

The ambassadors explained the Constitutional ruling to the UN and the fact that there will be no
statelessness because they are entitled to Haitian citizenship.

Bronze , been all over the UN News Center site and Googled anything that is related to the UN and the DR for the last year and could not find one article outside the DR news media that reflected the content of the articles sited by Nal's. Could it be that this declaration by the UN is only reserved to the DR ???
I beg you to show me differently , show me one article from an international news media that claims the UN supports the DR courts decision and I will stop posting on this topic on DR1 !
With the internet , social medias you can't lie to the people anymore .
 

iluvdr

New member
Aug 24, 2004
362
2
0
Criss for you own protection do not let Dominicans know in the DR how you really feel about the
country and its people. Especially during this current crisis. Dominicans are very patriotic and
protective of their country and any negativism right now is not advisable.

Keep your rants on line only. Just giving you sound advice.

Bronze you are a very sad person, trying to be a Bully again I see... Making indirect threats to Criss ! We are not in kindergarten here and Criss is no kid ! Lets be serious. This is a very serious matter. You tell me where and when, I will happily show up and express my opinions on the court's decision and the unfair treatment of Dominicans of Haitians ancestry. The day I am refused that right , I will gladly return my Dominican citizenship to the authorities. Shut up or put up buddy !