Haiti: The Least Developed Country in the Western Hemisphere...

PICHARDO said:

Haiti: The Least Developed Country in the Western Hemisphere.


Is there really any chance that Haiti will ever get it "right" in our lifetimes?

All indications are of a country that can't have two Democratic consecutive electoral cycles, without falling into a crisis one after the other.

A country where the rule of Law is conspicuously absent in all levels, even the top of gov.

How can there be hope, looking at such indicators?

The only thing that can be said to be developing each year in a positive level is corruption.

Should all the Western Hemisphere governments come together and designate an overseer government in Haiti?

Dismantle the present gov there and all their Laws/Constitution?

Adopt a generic system of Laws and Constitution that reflects their needs and developmental realities?

Can it be done? Should it?

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is this a prank?

PICHARDO said:

Haiti: The Least Developed Country in the Western Hemisphere.


Is there really any chance that Haiti will ever get it "right" in our lifetimes?

All indications are of a country that can't have two Democratic consecutive electoral cycles, without falling into a crisis one after the other.

A country where the rule of Law is conspicuously absent in all levels, even the top of gov.

How can there be hope, looking at such indicators?

The only thing that can be said to be developing each year in a positive level is corruption.

Should all the Western Hemisphere governments come together and designate an overseer government in Haiti?

Dismantle the present gov there and all their Laws/Constitution?

Adopt a generic system of Laws and Constitution that reflects their needs and developmental realities?

Can it be done? Should it?

Click to expand...

Who are you to be even considering such scenarios on a different country than yours??

I can say that over 50 years ago a British fellow I knew said that the only hope for Haiti was to send in a missle from Cape Canaveral (it was a long time ago) and say "OOoops! Sorry!" And then start anew. It is really sad, and there are some great people in Haiti, but they are not the pols...

None of us here on these boards can fathom what goes on there.

Believe me when I say this.

HB

Haitians are the only people who will ever resolve Haiti's many problems. This does not mean that they will, but no one else could have the gumption and the funds to do it. The attitude that many Haitians have in Miami seems to be that they should be considered as worthy charities at all times. Of course, my experience is observing the Haitians that visit yard sales here. If you tell them that this mink coat is a dollar, they will invariably respond with "quarter, mama", and keep saying this until they get it for a quarter or the seller ignores them.Perhaps this is not typical. So offering to build roads and infrastructure is likely to be seen as a deserved charity.

The tradition is that Haitian politicians have tended to see their role as one of sending enough money to France or Switzerland to support them and the next fifteen generations. I see that now Sweet Mickey is accused of corruption. Perhaps ihe is, perhaps not, but it is hard to get an entire country to cooperate together when all politicians are seen as thieves.

In the world before Norman Borlaug and Carl Butz, the author of Famine 1975!(1967) believed that a worldwide famine was coming and only some of the countries could be saved. Because the need would be essential infinite and aid would be limited, he divided the world into three categories using the triage method of battlefield doctors:

1) Those so hopelessly headed for or in the grip of famine (whether because of overpopulation, agricultural insufficiency, or political ineptness) that our aid will be a waste; these "can't-be-saved nations" will be ignored and left to their fate.

2) Those who are suffering but who will stagger through without our aid, "the walking wounded."

3) Those who can be saved by our help."

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Famine 1975! America's Decision: Who Will Survive? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Haiti fell into the first category. The country's food security was better back then, and there was about half of its current population. Egypt fell into the same category.

Here's a thought -

Strikes me that for 80 years Haiti has been the recipient of 'aid' yet it still struggles - could the 2 points be related?

Aid, on the face of it, has not worked - quite obviously.

Why not try something else?

The simple reason is that aid is an industry and careers and fortunes are at stake - been there, done that, seen it in action, have the names dates and numbers.
As long as there is so much money to be made in aid it will never stop - that is why Haiti cannot get on its feet - because it pays too well to keep it on its knees.

Martelly has built a a hell of a lot of roads, by the way.
The police now function pretty well - I have seen this in action.

The west did impose a kind of government on Haiti - MINUSTAH - not to mention every leader has had to have tacit approval from the US...

Things are not as cut and dried as people on this board think - you would have to go there to know this.

Haiti is in its situation from 500 years of extractive industries which benefited a handful of elites in essential a feudal state. Most of the aid given went to the industrialization of PaP instead of developing sustainable agriculture to create food security. The infrastructure needed for an urban workforce was never built, so PaP became a giant shanty town while farmers switched to commodity crops. Some of the *aid* came in the form of surplus rice from the US which was sold below cost and drove more farmers to the city and Haitian rice production came to a halt. Poor policies in taxing cooking fuel, extreme poverty and the ban of charcoal production in the DR has led to near total deforestation, which in turn made less land available for food production. Finally, having a language other than English or Spanish created barriers for trade and immigration to other countries.

Haiti would be a fantastic place, if it wasn't for the Haitians. I believe this nation is a victim to its own history. A slave's revolt that should have never succeeded. "La Colonie Fran?aise de Saint-Domingue", for better or for worst, would be some kind of a Dom-Tom, maybe would have been independent in 1968 amidst "Mai 68" turmoil, thanks to De Gaulle...
Probably the worst thing that happened to our neighbor was Toussaint Louverture, Jean-Jacques Dessalines, Boukman and Bois-Caiman...
Sorry Haiti, I love you, it's bitter...

Most of the DR was built by the strength of. Haiti labor ...without them here in the Dr there would be 5 building .their here workers 1 is worth 5 dominicans ,however their country needs invasi?n by the Jews 3000 kibutzes later and their fire power and bingo you would have Paridise there ....thats where the Jews should have been after the war ...not INTHE middle of a herdof ?rab countries ! They turned a desert into civilizaci?n.In Hait? they could do mira les !

I somehow think that Jews will not be relocating to Haiti anytime soon.

One difference between Haiti and the DR was that Haitian presidents stole the money and sent it off to Switzerland. Trujillo stole the money and invested in in the country.

The Haitian people do not seem to be as unified as the people of the DR, either.

No i know they wont ... Just stating it would be the only solution had this been done after the war ... Most of the North coast was Settle by Jews that made ahuge DIFFERENCE to the DR ... The DR was the only country that would accept them during the war

I agree with the Israelis and the kibbutz, that would be a dream! We all know it's not going to happen, however the kibbutz idea is very good.
As of the Papa Doc vs El Jefe, it's very clear how good was Trujillo for the DR, and how unjust history is with El Jefe.
Fran?ois Duvalier was the paradigm of Haitian politic... Jean-Claude, well, Jean-Claude was just too young. That said, Jean-Claude was probably the best president Haiti had, in the 20th century, in spite of his own limitations and inexperience.

arrugala said:

No i know they wont ... Just stating it would be the only solution had this been done after the war ... Most of the North coast was Settle by Jews that made ahuge DIFFERENCE to the DR ... The DR was the only country that would accept them during the war

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where do you get your historical information from? the island of Jamaica took in several Ashkenazi Jewish refugees during WW2. Trujillo took in the Jews not for humanitarian reasons, but to "lighten" the pigment of Dominicans by miscegenation

Any discussion of the problems of Haiti needs to begin with the French Colonial Period (1660-1804). The French didn’t really treat Haiti as a colony like the British treated theirs. It was more like an island prison. For 146 years, to the French the entire island of Hispaniola was nothing more than one huge sugar plantation.

To compare the French colonization of Haiti to the British colonization of the United States, let’s look at one category: colleges and universities. From 1607 to 1776 the British built several dozen universities in the American colonies, including William and Mary, Princeton, Yale, and, of course, Harvard, which was already a 140-year-old institution by the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Many of the signors of the Declaration were graduates of these colleges with degrees in law and parliamentary procedure – just the type of leaders a young, fledgling nation is going to need in order to survive and succeed.

Now let’s look at the French colonization of Haiti. From 1660 to 1804, how many colleges and universities did the French build in Haiti to grow the future leaders of that country? Zero. That’s right. In 146 years of colonial rule the French could not manage to build one single college or university on the entire island. As a result, instead of leaving an independent nation into the hands of learned men with university education in science and law, the new nation was left into the hands of illiterate former slaves whose only knowledge of government leadership was tribal warfare.

Squat said:

Haiti would be a fantastic place, if it wasn't for the Haitians. I believe this nation is a victim to its own history. A slave's revolt that should have never succeeded. "La Colonie Fran?aise de Saint-Domingue", for better or for worst, would be some kind of a Dom-Tom, maybe would have been independent in 1968 amidst "Mai 68" turmoil, thanks to De Gaulle...
Probably the worst thing that happened to our neighbor was Toussaint Louverture, Jean-Jacques Dessalines, Boukman and Bois-Caiman...
Sorry Haiti, I love you, it's bitter...

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Thanks G their revolt succeeded, anyhow the situation would have exploded sooner or later (as reported by Charles Frostin) and the slave revolt was also wished by the French Royalists. Better to be a free man than a slave...Anyway have we seen yet an old slave colony being an economic giant, in the Caribbean seas?

- Dien Bien Phu was also the ?Haiti? of the French in Asia, under the lead of the genius General Vo Nguyen Giap (RIP) who spanked them hardly and would do the same few years later to the US Amy?Yet they?re doing better, showing that it is possible for Haitians to do something about their country.

- Life for the "natives" in the DOM TOM is not so much better compared to Haiti : No jobs, high delinquency, drugs...Most of the people of French Guyana, Guadeloupe and Martinique left for France or " La M?trople" as they say because power and wealth is still to be found among the descendants of the slave owners or B?k?s (many of them being the descendants of the conversos kicked out from Brazil by the Portuguese and who introduced the sugar cane knowledge in Haiti, Guadeloupe and Martinique). Plus the cost of life is ridiculously expensive (specially the food coming from France) when the wages are very low (if you have a job). These people are not considered to be ?French? even with the Just Soli rule (they all have the French Nationality by Birth), you can also have a look at how the French Nationalists are treating Christiane Taubira current French Minister of Justice?

- Charles de Gaulle 's ( a dumb racist BTW) movement of "independence" in the late 50s/ early 60s, was just a "thank you" to some colonies who fought the German armies in Africa, Europe ( Italy, Corsica, France etc) when most of the French population collaborated with the Nazi army ( millions of letters of denunciations during that period...)...It's ONLY because of them that French was considered an ally ( The Guyanese Felix Ebou? led that resistance in the French colonial empire)....Because at that same time France was under Vichy , German or Italian control... De Gaulle?s miracle is that France was considered to be part of the Allied forces of WWII when in facts it was all the opposite (.i.e. L?gion des Volontaires Fran?ais or LVF or Division Charlemagne, Lois de Vichy, Vel D?Hiv, not mentioning all the concentration camps found all over the territory..).

- Plus, that independence was just on the paper, because De Gaulle's man Jacques Koch Foccart made that situation happened (with the native elites) unfortunately "colonial servility" is still not over till these days.

- Haitians did well by destroying slavery, however internal conflicts, politic instability, imperialists? revenge, Dictators, Fate (2010), Corruption are those variables which explain their current situation. I really wish that one day they will fix up their country?.Heck General Rochambeau, the French butcher has his name in the Arc of Triomphe, why should Haitians shoud be ashamed of their founding fathers ( with their qualities and shortcomings ?).

JLA1125 said:

To compare the French colonization of Haiti to the British colonization of the United States

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I believe it is an historical mistake to compare Haiti and the British US. It is simply too different, reality was very different. I believe you are losing yourself with this logic. If you want to compare, how about Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Cuba, or even smaller Martinique & Guadeloupe?

Haiti is a perpetual mess and ultimately they, the Haitians, have themselves to blame.

K-Mel said:

Thanks G their revolt succeeded (...)General Rochambeau, the French butcher has his name in the Arc of Triomphe, why should Haitians shoud be ashamed of their founding fathers ( with their qualities and shortcomings ?).

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While I don't completely disagree on some aspects of your post, I feel you are trapped into a politically correct, slightly leftist world-view.
I dislike the Dom-Tom mentality, and I am not setting "Les Antilles Fran?aises" as an example, being too well aware of its shortcomings.
But give some credit to the B?k?s. They provided work to the rest of the population. It's simply too easy to dismiss them as racist/classist nowadays. In Haiti "les gros Mangeurs" are the equivalent, and while they did not come from Brazil, they are for most of them descendants of Syrians Christians escaping the Muslim pogroms of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century.
But I simply can't go away from this concept: Haiti's failure started at Bois-Caiman. The independence in 1804 was way too early.
And no black pride will ever be enough to justify such a failure. Let's be pragmatic. Let's not hide behind the pride BS.

JLA1125 said:

Any discussion of the problems of Haiti needs to begin with the French Colonial Period (1660-1804). The French didn’t really treat Haiti as a colony like the British treated theirs. It was more like an island prison. For 146 years, to the French the entire island of Hispaniola was nothing more than one huge sugar plantation.

To compare the French colonization of Haiti to the British colonization of the United States, let’s look at one category: colleges and universities. From 1607 to 1776 the British built several dozen universities in the American colonies, including William and Mary, Princeton, Yale, and, of course, Harvard, which was already a 140-year-old institution by the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Many of the signors of the Declaration were graduates of these colleges with degrees in law and parliamentary procedure – just the type of leaders a young, fledgling nation is going to need in order to survive and succeed.

Now let’s look at the French colonization of Haiti. From 1660 to 1804, how many colleges and universities did the French build in Haiti to grow the future leaders of that country? Zero. That’s right. In 146 years of colonial rule the French could not manage to build one single college or university on the entire island. As a result, instead of leaving an independent nation into the hands of learned men with university education in science and law, the new nation was left into the hands of illiterate former slaves whose only knowledge of government leadership was tribal warfare.

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great post. kudos