Haiti on the cover of Conde Nast traveler Spain

GWOZOZO

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NALs

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Let me guess, many Haitians disapprove of this relationship due solely for racial reasons.

I remember when a light-skin mulatto Haitian woman was elected a few years ago to represent the country in a beauty pageant and the discontent among the Haitians was palpable. This relationship has probably been scrutinized beyond belief!

Regarding the cover on Conde Nast, I hope its intention works! Tourism is one of the few sectors that unquestionably is highly promising for Haiti's development at least for the medium term.
 

NALs

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I guess I spoke too soon!

[video=youtube;Ql9aZ1CI3eE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql9aZ1CI3eE[/video]

That video was uploaded in May 2013.

I often wonder if Haiti's mulatto/black issue had any repercussion in their treatment of the DR in diplomatic and other types of relationships. I will start investigating this, especially if there was a different treatment towards DR depending if the Haitian leader was mulatto or black, because in Haiti itself this seems to have been of paramount in importance and often times was the source of political and social conflicts.

Its even said that Baby Doc (dictator Duvalier's son) lost the support of the black masses the moment he married a very light-skinned mulatto Haitian woman, and this alienation which eventually made it easy for the coup against him to succeed, was based solely on the color issue.
 

GWOZOZO

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I remember when a light-skin mulatto Haitian woman was elected a few years ago to represent the country in a beauty pageant and the discontent among the Haitians was palpable. This relationship has probably been scrutinized beyond belief!

.

Her being a mulatto was not the issue.

The problem was that she was selected by the dominican woman Magalie i think her name was.

Her mother was also an enemy of Aristide and was murdered...so the poor girl escaped to DR.

She studied there and became fluent in spanish.

She toured all the spanish speaking media and was even elected miss hispano America.

That was too much for us haitians to take...we felt she was inposed on us.

She became too Latinized....and many felt she had no business being miss haiti.

[video=youtube_share;sK4bcBdtJ3k]http://youtu.be/sK4bcBdtJ3k[/video]
 

GWOZOZO

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Another mulatresse Miss Haiti Anedie Azael had no such issue and was accepted.

[video=youtube_share;cMBkf6dsBGA]http://youtu.be/cMBkf6dsBGA[/video]
 

GWOZOZO

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Regarding the cover on Conde Nast, I hope its intention works! Tourism is one of the few sectors that unquestionably is highly promising for Haiti's development at least for the medium term.

That cover is just for flash. I have seen other similar covers over the years whenever haiti is not going thru some political upheaval.....that tourism talk starts again.

The government should concentrate on national production starting with agriculture...and gradually reinstate high tarifs against imported goods as national production rises.

Any talk of tourism should be limited to leasing haiti's outer islands Tortuga and Isle-a-vache to some euro/american or asian concern(s) for secluded resorts.
 

GWOZOZO

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I often wonder if Haiti's mulatto/black issue had any repercussion in their treatment of the DR in diplomatic and other types of relationships. I will start investigating this, especially if there was a different treatment towards DR depending if the Haitian leader was mulatto or black, because in Haiti itself this seems to have been of paramount in importance and often times was the source of political and social conflicts.

Its even said that Baby Doc (dictator Duvalier's son) lost the support of the black masses the moment he married a very light-skinned mulatto Haitian woman, and this alienation which eventually made it easy for the coup against him to succeed, was based solely on the color issue.

Two separate issues NALs

Haiti's internal color issue has been part of its culture since it was the colony of St-Domingue.

Yes Baby Doc lost support by marrying Michelle.

Even Aristide lost some support by marrying Mildred.

But it is an internal family dispute.


It has ZERO repercussion on Haiti/DR relationship.

That is an external issue between two different people ...natural enemies some would say.....unfortunate enough to share a small piece of land.
 

Naked_Snake

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Any talk of tourism should be limited to leasing haiti's outer islands Tortuga and Isle-a-vache to some euro/american or asian concern(s) for secluded resorts.

What's your opinion on Gonave? Could that be done with that island as well?
 

NALs

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Her being a mulatto was not the issue.
That's what you say, but its your word against those of quite a few Haitians I talked to about this. She was too light, that was the real issue. The faulting of Dominicans for the 'wrong' selection to represent Haiti was even couched within the actual issue surrounding that problem, which was her color.

The government should concentrate on national production starting with agriculture...and gradually reinstate high tarifs against imported goods as national production rises.
If you knew how much tourism can impact the rest of the economy, you will see why Haiti should focus on developing its tourism sector if it wants to created a meaningful demand for the national industries. That will in turn create a nice internal market of people with some disposable income who will then add an additional ring on the demand, but the big driver for the benefit of Haiti in general will be mass tourism. Haiti has double the kilometers of beaches than the DR has, including some 25 kilometers along its southern shore of uninterrupted white sand beach similar to B?varo's but with the added bonus of having a mountainous backdrop (and those mountains are not as denude from their vegetation as some of the other mountain chains such as the Noirs or Matheux chains).

Haiti's population simply doesn't have enough purchasing power to ensure a significant development of its domestic industries.
Two separate issues NALs

Haiti's internal color issue has been part of its culture since it was the colony of St-Domingue.

Yes Baby Doc lost support by marrying Michelle.

Even Aristide lost some support by marrying Mildred.

But it is an internal family dispute.


It has ZERO repercussion on Haiti/DR relationship.

That is an external issue between two different people ...natural enemies some would say.....unfortunate enough to share a small piece of land.
I'm not fully convinced by this yet. Our experience with Haitian rule clearly shows that there is a underlying problem that at its root is the Haitian color issue. In fact, the strong basis of race and color on the building of the Haitian national consciousness is what lead Jean Price Mars to completely miss the mark on his evaluation of Dominican society. His evaluation, which was done in the mid-20th Century, has not only influenced the entire Haitian point of view of Dominican society due to the high esteem that his contributions are held amount Haitian intellectuals; but, he is also indirectly the source for the image that has been spread about the DR internationally, which has lead to the creation of a plethora of sociological works/books/etc with the initial Haitian point of view as the basis of their studies.

Its completely irresponsible to sweep under the rug the role the color issue in Haiti itself has had on Dominican-Haitian relations. This is a subject that hasn't been much studied yet, on the one hand because its not something of interest in Haiti and on the other, because Haiti is rarely studied by Dominican intellectuals. But if it was the basis of a serious study, I have no doubt interesting conclusions that will even change the entire perspectives from which Dominican-Haitian relations have been studied and understood thus far.

Let me give you an example.

It was Jean Price Mars who initiated the notion of categorizing the Dominican Republic as a racist country that practiced bavorism. His entire analysis of Dominican society was approached from a racist point of view that took the concept of negritud as the filter from which everything was analyzed. That concept works well for understanding Haitian identity and mannerisms, because Haiti was initially based on racial concepts as is clearly evident in its very own declaration of independence, where race and color is the foundation of that nation. Dominican society has to be analyzed from a cultural aspect to fully understand it and within that cultural point of view, the influence of Haiti can't be ignored because it is central to Dominican identity formation.

Some of his arguments have not only dominated sociological studies of the DR from the outside looking in, but also from within the Dominican intellectual establishment; mostly because almost no one has taken into consideration the influence of Haiti in Dominican affairs and the influence, most likely indirectly, that Haiti's internal racial issues have had in its influence on Dominicans.

One of his most basic notions that has dominated almost every single sociological study on Dominican identity is his notion that Dominicans are racist because during his visit of the country he noticed that all Dominicans, regardless of color, said that they descended from the Spaniards. His racial basis for judging Dominican society lead him to completely miss the mark, because to understand why Dominicans of all colors claim to descend from Spaniards, a person must first ask themselves who exactly was considered Spaniard during the colonial period.

Price Mars reached his own conclusion based on his racially based point of view without even attempting to study Dominican colonial history, and that is why he concluded that every time a Dominican claimed to descend from a Spaniard, that the Dominican was referring to some white ancestor. While it is true that most Dominicans have some Spanish blood mixed in, from the days of Columbus even Taino indians were considered Spaniards if they adopted mostly Spanish customs and way of doing things. During the invasion of Dessalines in 1805, Jos? Campos Tav?rez, a mulatto from the Spanish side of the island, warned the Santiago population of Dessalines' bloody intentions and in his speech, he even said that "I speak to you as a fellow countrymen, as a Spaniard..." and even Gaspar Arredondo y Pichardo referred to Campos Tav?rez as "a Spaniard." In the first Spanish Constitution of C?diz, the section that defines who was to be considered a Spanish national clearly states "Spanish are anyone born free within the domain of the Spains (with the S) and that lives in any of the Spanish territory" and it also stated "anyone freemen that has gained his freedom within Spanish territory", with Santo Domingo (DR) being considered a full fledge province of Spain on par with the other provinces on the Spanish peninsula. Everyone that was free, which in the Dominican case was most of the population, was a Spanish national. Even the indians were included in the category. And any slave that gained their freedom, from that very moment they became Spanish nationals. It didn't stated that non-whites were not Spanish nationals, it didn't state that of the non-whites only the mixed blood were Spanish nationals; in essence, even the blacks that were free were Spanish nationals. It was a cultural term.

This misunderstanding made by Price Mars was also made by some other foreigners that visited the DR in the early 20th Century. It was usually foreigners that arrived from societies where race was central to their sense of identity from colonial days, such as Americans. In fact, one American (who's name I don't remember right now) in the 1920s visited the DR and even mentioned that (I'm paraphrasing) "the Spanish mentality is so ingrained in the Dominicans despite most are mixed with African blood, that on one occasion a pure black Dominican said 'that may be fine for you people, but we Latins are different". He highlighted that because for an American, used to having race as the most central aspect of their sense of identity, for a non-white to consider themselves "Latin" was an error, because "Latins" can only be those people that racially can trace their origin to Spain, Portugal, France, Italy...

Do you notice the error made in trying to understand Dominican society?

This error has had a tremendous impact on the way Dominican society is seen from the outside and even from within by some of the intellectuals that haven't taken the time to take into consideration the racial issues within Haiti itself and the effects these have had on Dominican-Haitian relations, even informal ones such as Price Mars sociological perception of Dominican society.

I'm in the midst of my own investigation regarding this and when I'm done, I will post my findings here. I wasn't planning to post this here, but now I think I should and fully documented and cited.

There is no point in going into a debate on the origin of the different focuses (racial vs cultural), because its very clear that it originated in the different point of views that the Europeans had in their own colonies.

There was even a French politician that visited both sides of the island when Santo Domingo was part of Spain and Saint Domingue a colony of France, who said (I'm paraphrasing): "Its unbelievable that on the same island, while the French are doing everything in their power to limit racial mixture and to limit the power of the mulattoes, on the Spanish side the conditions are set for the fusion of the two races."

Even in colonial Asia, the few European visitors to various colonies there often commented (and this is documented) on how different things were in the Philippines (a province of Spain at the time) where the whites sat with the non-whites to talk political matters and impose the rule of law, something that in the British/French/Dutch Asian colonies was not only not seen, but actively discouraged and looked down upon.

The British and the French even ridiculed the Spanish for their relaxed attitude towards racial mixing.
 
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GWOZOZO

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If you knew how much tourism can impact the rest of the economy, you will see why Haiti should focus on developing its tourism sector if it wants to created a meaningful demand for the national industries. That will in turn create a nice internal market of people with some disposable income who will then add an additional ring on the demand, but the big driver for the benefit of Haiti in general will be mass tourism. Haiti has double the kilometers of beaches than the DR has, including some 25 kilometers along its southern shore of uninterrupted white sand beach similar to B?varo's but with the added bonus of having a mountainous backdrop (and those mountains are not as denude from their vegetation as some of the other mountain chains such as the Noirs or Matheux chains).

Haiti's population simply doesn't have enough purchasing power to ensure a significant development of its domestic industries.

I do understand the role that tourism can play.

I simply think in haiti's case just as it is to some level in Jamaica and other islands......the exclusive resort is the way to start.

And with haiti's image problem, these secluded ISLANDs will be an easier sale.


As for purchasing power it is simply a matter of spending whatever it is spending now on domestic products. It is obviosly purchasing stuff......so spending it on things it can produce can only be a win.
 

GWOZOZO

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NALs, very thoughful post.

I am not brushing under the rug the role race plays in haitian culture and our view of the world. Our nation was born out of a bloody racial conflict.

Remember early haitian constitutions declared all haitians to be black...and that only black foreigners could migrate in and become haitian...and whites could not hold property. Boyer allowed a few thousand black americans to settle on the then united island.

So haiti's racial views are not dominican centered.....but aimed at white supremacy.


I agree most foreigners do not fully understand DR.

But I thing now we have moved beyound race. Ethnicity is the main point of contention between the two countries.
Anti-haitianisme is an integral part of dominican culture. While there is not a historical counter anti-dominicanisme in haitian culture....it is slowly getting ground as a response to anti-haitianisme.

But it looks like you have given the subject quite a bit of thought and have done much research......so i welcome your findings.
 

NALs

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And with haiti's image problem, these secluded ISLANDs will be an easier sale.
You guys already have evidence of how to effectively sell a destination within Haiti despite the image problem. Most people that have visited Labadee until recently were never told they were in Haiti.

The Haiti image problem was even a problem for the Dominican tourism industry, especially in the beginning. That is why Dominican destinations were often marketed by their own name without mentioning the DR, and on maps where the DR was presented, Haiti was usually erased. They presented the island and then it would say Dominican Republic on the eastern part and highlight some of the cities and tourist destinations, and that's it. There are still a few of these maps available.

So haiti's racial views are not dominican centered
I never said it was "dominican centered," but I do think Haiti's internal issues impacted some of their external issues, especially with the neighbors to the east. For most of recent history, Haiti was the more cosmopolitan of the two countries and during the Duvalier dictatorship it was precisely the well educated intellectuals and successful businessmen that left with their families to Canada or France or the USA due to the hostile situation Duvalier created for a large segment of the mulatto population. Haiti's initial cosmopolitanism and the later exodus of the well educated people undoubtedly made Haiti's views on things, including their perception of Dominican society, the first points of views that the outside world got of the island. If you go to universities in Montreal, you will notice all the documents, historical books, and overall information they have on Haiti. That is the result of all the Haitian intellectuals that moved there, but there is not much on Dominican Republic and the few that does exist is not quite the Dominican point of view.

The other side of the coin is that the Dominican government is much more insular and until recently not caring too much for the rest of the world. We can see this even today with the Constitutional Tribunal ordeal, where Haiti quickly went all over the world and spread its very own point of view of the situation, which never fully reflected what the Constitutional Tribunal ruling is truly about. What did the Dominican government do? Pretty much nothing and Danilo exploded in Cuba because he personally felt insulted that every meeting with other heads of states, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Prime Minister was constantly blasting the DR. The day before Danilo erupted he had clarified some attacks the Prime Minister had made, and then to see the Prime Minister continue with his attacks on the day after was too much for him. But before and after that incident, the Dominican government takes a more quiet, pretend nothing is happening, not caring what the rest of the world is thinking approach.

GWOZOZO said:
.....but aimed at white supremacy.
Yes, that is quite obvious and was a direct response to the treatment the French gave the Haitians. You can pretty much tell how certain groups got treated in colonial times by the amount of racial resentment. The worse the treatment, the worst the resentment.

There was a Frenchman, I don’t remember if he was a diplomat or what exactly, but he was tied or visited the place to Saint Domingue, I think his name was Wuves or Weuves. Anyway, the way he justified the dichotomy that existed on the island at that time, with Saint Domingue being the richest colony in the world while Santo Domingo was one of the poorest despite having the more fertile side of the island in addition to most of the island because the original French territory comprised slightly less than a quarter of the island, was clearly racially based.

He said that the French were superior to the Spanish for two reasons:

1. The French did a much better job at keeping themselves as pure as possible while disparaging the Spanish on the other side of the island because, according to him, most were mixed with African and “Caribs” blood because even among the white Spaniards there was often a feature or two that revealed a mixed origin. He even questioned whether they could even be considered “Spaniards” based solely on that the Spanish were usually mixed (implying that to be Spanish a person must be fully white, a concept that was not really applied within the Spanish territory). Then he started to brag about how the French, the Swiss, the Germans did a much better job at not “contaminating” their blood.

2. The second explanation he gave was that the in Saint Domingue the whites maintained full control of “the dignities of first order” (meaning the local government institutions and the religious institutions) and derided the fact that there was not a single “Spanish Indies” where mulattoes were to be absent from such positions that, according to him, were worthy only for whites.

The more I immerse myself into the colonial origins of Haiti based on the documents from the era, the more I am certain that had Haiti become independent by the will of France or of the French on the island as oppose to the slave revolt, that Haiti would had probably developed racial relations similar to what was seen in the United States and South Africa with full fledge racial apartheid. In fact, the slave revolt started because the French didn’t want to give the mulattoes equal representation in the government and the mulattoes revolted and later appealed to the slaves to revolt.

The two sides of the island were different from the very beginning.
 
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It is a cool article, thanks for posting it.

I guess the model was not up to hiking up the road to La Ferriere. It might be the most impressive building in the country.