I've been warned that this topic will shake the hornets nest. Please help me grasp what it means to be middle class (lower, middle, and upper) in the Dominican Republic. The intent is to be enlightened, not to be provocative.
- Thread starter Matem?tico
- Start date
What defines middle class status in the DR?
Plenty of threads in the archives. Do a search and if you still have questions we will be glad to help you out
Here we go again..... you can start here, there are more, it's been beaten to death:
http://dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/117194-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/living/137015-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/men-mars-wome...minicanas-yes-they-exist-you-can-get-one.html
http://dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/21863-there-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/living/46192-dominican-middle-class.html
http://dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/117194-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/living/137015-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/men-mars-wome...minicanas-yes-they-exist-you-can-get-one.html
http://dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/21863-there-middle-class-dr.html
http://dr1.com/forums/living/46192-dominican-middle-class.html
Clearly those of you who are veterans of this forum have been there before. I was simply hoping for some current guideline as to a working definition by contributors to this exchange of ideas and opinions. Not an academic or personal slant, simply a conglomerate of contributions in terms of what defines middle class status in the DR. Indicators such as educational level, occupation, income level (2-income family of 4 members), accumulation of material goods, ability to save for the future, etc....
I would not attempt to compare definitions in a developed country with that of an emerging, much less a so called third world economy. The social sciences, especially sociology (cultural norms, religious belief systems, class strata, etc...), are fascinating to me. Please forgive my na?vet? when I dare ask again for us to embark on such endeavor. Any engagement is valued.
I would not attempt to compare definitions in a developed country with that of an emerging, much less a so called third world economy. The social sciences, especially sociology (cultural norms, religious belief systems, class strata, etc...), are fascinating to me. Please forgive my na?vet? when I dare ask again for us to embark on such endeavor. Any engagement is valued.
Thanks AlterEgo for the links, I went through them, very interesting. I just wanted to share my impressions with Matem?tico, coming from the place as he does, I have many family members who would consider themselves middle class, my madrina works in the presidential palace and told me that to live good I will need to bring in about RD$50,000 per month. She lives in gascue, owns a duplex, 2 cars, travels 2-3 times per year, and generally lives a good life, better than me for sure. Then I know a lawyer and a dentist, and when I visit their homes I cannot envision myself living in these conditions and I think to myself why are these professionals living like this, and it struck me that they have to take care of so many people, from parents to kids, nephews, etc..
Then there's the case of my sister, married to a rich guy, they have a mansion in a place called Alameda, now let me tell you they gave me the keys to stay at this place when I go and I respectfully declined - Yea is a mansion, pool, jacuzzi, theater room, but when you step outside the walls of this 'urbanisacion', the ghettoest of ghettos... I mean people living in shacks, crime rampant...
With that said, every situation is different, and it does not only depend on how much you get paid, but your own unique expectations and situation. If you were on your own, I'd say take the plunge, but with a family and all, I would consider it a risky move, unless you have the means and connections to stay afloat while you adjust.
Then there's the case of my sister, married to a rich guy, they have a mansion in a place called Alameda, now let me tell you they gave me the keys to stay at this place when I go and I respectfully declined - Yea is a mansion, pool, jacuzzi, theater room, but when you step outside the walls of this 'urbanisacion', the ghettoest of ghettos... I mean people living in shacks, crime rampant...
With that said, every situation is different, and it does not only depend on how much you get paid, but your own unique expectations and situation. If you were on your own, I'd say take the plunge, but with a family and all, I would consider it a risky move, unless you have the means and connections to stay afloat while you adjust.
I think you might have to be American to understand that - it's a phrase bandied about everywhere, especially in politics. We Americans often try to understand DR by what *we* understand - how we fit into their world. It doesn't work. They don't think or live like Americans, for the most part.
I had to smile when I read Math's segment about Dominicans 'saving for the future'. It's not a concept the majority of them have grasped, regardless of their station in life.
It's not about titles, more about living conditions. Having immigrated into the poor class of the US, as a young boy coming from what I now would describe as lower middle class, I am grateful to my current country for affording me the opportunities to advance through formal education and hard work (yes, I naively and wholeheartedly believe in the American dream). Opportunities I probably would not have had in the DR. The lack of opportunities to climb the social ladder in the DR, even after attaining advanced degrees, are disheartening to me and I assume yo the many young people enrolled in the universities of the country while Ill-prepared and amoral politicians become rich overnight. It makes me so angry. How to change the pernicious culture of corruption so ingrained at all levels of the society with many sitting idly and indifferently? So many of my friends and family members living in the DR have given up and simply state that there is no hope for change. I refuse to capitulate. Change it has to and it will, for the better. It will take time, education, determination, and general will. Sorry for the philosophical rant.
There are people here who are culturally/educationally middle class but their income does not allow them what we would recognise as a middle class lifestyle. A university graduate who works as a teacher or in an administrative/banking job may have middle class status but not the trappings. They will find it difficult to live in a good area, buy their own apartment/house, car, pay private school fees, travel, etc.
Social mobility is limited because so much depends on connections.
Social mobility is limited because so much depends on connections.
Rd$50,000 per month to live the good life??? That's my supermarket bill and fuel for one of two vehicles. When I moved back again to DR an aunt of my wife told us with rd$80,000 we should be doing fine. What a joke. If is be earning that I'm booking my flight back today.
If you don't have around 200,000 / month steady income and preferably the USD equivalent, living in the capital with children, you won't live middle class life.
I'm with "Mauricio" 100% on his figure!
That's about what we spend, and I own my house, and vehicles.
I have 4 kids in school, from 4th. & 5th. grades through university.
"Math", I look forward to meeting you and your family, when/if you come to SD!
I can show you, by our example, what 5K a month will get you here in SD.
You can live on less, because you have fewer children, which is our biggest,...... "INVESTMENT"!
It's nice to see a well educated "Dominicano" who wants to come back to his "Roots"!
You may love it here, or you may say, "WTF" were we THINKING??????
But no matter which it is, the experience will be good for you AND your family!
You know, the "OLD",..."If It Doesn't Kill You, It will Make You Stronger"!!!!
"Do It"!!!!!
Providing you can come up with that 4K every month!
You must have money here, because there are no government benefit programs to provide a "Safety Net"!
"Families" are your only "Safety Net" here!
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That's about what we spend, and I own my house, and vehicles.
I have 4 kids in school, from 4th. & 5th. grades through university.
"Math", I look forward to meeting you and your family, when/if you come to SD!
I can show you, by our example, what 5K a month will get you here in SD.
You can live on less, because you have fewer children, which is our biggest,...... "INVESTMENT"!
It's nice to see a well educated "Dominicano" who wants to come back to his "Roots"!
You may love it here, or you may say, "WTF" were we THINKING??????
But no matter which it is, the experience will be good for you AND your family!
You know, the "OLD",..."If It Doesn't Kill You, It will Make You Stronger"!!!!
"Do It"!!!!!
Providing you can come up with that 4K every month!
You must have money here, because there are no government benefit programs to provide a "Safety Net"!
"Families" are your only "Safety Net" here!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Did you read the links provided for you? Take the time to read them and learn. Then come back with more questions. Certainly after reading them you will have more questions. Opinions vary a lot between the members. The more you ask. They more they write. The more confused you get. One answer does not fit all. Try and combine the answers to find a suitable answer for your family.
Criss, much appreciated input. Yes, I realize I may regret the move, but I want to try it. Of course as you can discern from my repetitive and pointless questions, I'm trying to manage as many of the unknowns as possible to minimize the probability of a failed attempt. There are no guarantees, but I believe in being informed and planning as much as possible (being flexible for the unforeseen). The details you and others provide are really valuable to me. I also know that my desire to return is colored by the rose-colored lenses of nostalgia and the experience we've had as recent tourists. Nonetheless, I believe the experience will enrich both my life and that of my family. I must work hard to cross the t's and dot the i's which is what I am attempting to do here. I too look forward to meeting you, yours, and many others.
Math,
Actually, I tend to view such requests as an attempt to determine a baseline for how much it takes to attain a certain "quality of life" level in another country.
The answer, as you'll see with those threads AE provided, is elusive. It really does depend on many personal factors. After all, "middle class" is largely subjective and geographical.
For example, I live in Atlanta, and enjoy what others have called an "upper middle class" lifestyle. In my case (and zip code), that apparently translates to the usual "big house, nice car" trappings where there's generally no issues to eating well, traveling or going to shows, and typically finding oneself with more money than month. However, if I were to move to San Francisco and it's uber-expensive real estate market, my interpretation of which "class" I was in would likely change.
So it is in DR. A prince in Moca (a "normal" town in the central valley) could easily become a pauper in El Millon.
Actually, I tend to view such requests as an attempt to determine a baseline for how much it takes to attain a certain "quality of life" level in another country.
The answer, as you'll see with those threads AE provided, is elusive. It really does depend on many personal factors. After all, "middle class" is largely subjective and geographical.
For example, I live in Atlanta, and enjoy what others have called an "upper middle class" lifestyle. In my case (and zip code), that apparently translates to the usual "big house, nice car" trappings where there's generally no issues to eating well, traveling or going to shows, and typically finding oneself with more money than month. However, if I were to move to San Francisco and it's uber-expensive real estate market, my interpretation of which "class" I was in would likely change.
So it is in DR. A prince in Moca (a "normal" town in the central valley) could easily become a pauper in El Millon.
DrRob, I agree completely. My family and I are fortunate enough to live a comfortable middle class life with the trappings you describe in Brooklyn, NY. What matters to me is exactly that----what it means to live a comparable lifestyle in a good neighborhood in Sto Dgo.