Learning Haitian Creole: Some Proverbs

Lucas61

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retired English teacher (30 years)
Some Haitian Krey?l Proverbs From The Book ?I Read With a Happy Heart.?

K?k Pwov?b Krey?l Aysien Nan Liv La ?M'ap Li Ak K? Kontan?

Introduction

All Haitian villages and cities have market days two days per week. They are staggered so that, for example, if you live in Kwafe, you know the market days (different) of the adjacent Belad?. My point being that you can find at any of these markets the books that are used in the public schools and purchase them. For Krey?l the book that many grew up with is "M'ap Li Ak K? Kontan" or "I Read With A Happy Heart." I guarantee it. Go to any Haitian (in Haiti) and ask them if they know this book and the answer will be ?Yes!? with a broad smile of recognition. I'm not sure if this book is still used in the public school system but it has been around since 1968 or so.

From the advent of first speech, Haitians are fluent in the syntax and pronunciation of Creole. It is the de facto family and national language. 100% speak Creole but 100% do NOT speak French.

When students enter the first grade, they begin to learn to read and spell and write the language they already know. Their vocabulary is significantly extended as they learn various cultural mores (as in the proverbs), agricultural activities, the market, social interactions, etc. The famous stories ?Bouki and Ti Malis? begin the second half of the second year. From these first two year primary school books I learned 2,650 words. Many of these are synonyms as the text does a great job enriching and adding nuance to vocabulary. It is because of this nuance, that you really need an advanced dictionary to learn from these books (following) as the dime-a-dozen severely abridged Haitian dictionaries just don't cut it.

Starting in the third grade, French is added, and is continued with Krey?l. By the time students begin French, they can already read and write. This staggered approach to bilingualism is very sound. French becomes a MUCH easier proposition when you can already read and write its derived form.

Unfortunately, large numbers cannot afford public school, which requires the purchase of uniforms and books, so a vast number of Haitians speak K. only and not French and may be illiterate, to varying degrees, in writing and the reading of K. depending on the years of education. At the extreme end would be one like my friend F. who cannot read or write one word, would not recognize her name if she saw it written, cannot write her name, and would sign a document with an X, oh, and doesn't know how to hold a pencil or a pen. The latter example is NOT typical but it is common. On the other hand, large numbers of Haitians graduate from high school fluent in the reading, writing, and speaking of Creole and French, sometimes adding Spanish and/or English.
In Haiti, as in Africa, it is not uncommon to meet people who are fluent in three or four languages. Some, who assist tourists, add a fifth language. Flame!! When you consider this cultural competence, it's disconcerting (understatement) to see ?Haiti bashing.?

I spent two years reading, writing, and speaking based on the primary school text "M'ap Li Ak K? Kontan" plus about 30 visits to the country. I am now working on my third year. And I use the most advanced dictionary the six volume, 57,000 word dictionary from the University of Kansas, which by the way, is absolutely necessary for even this primary school work. The primary school textbooks are, really, quite advanced compared to their English equivalents.


Here, then, are the proverbs:


Yon s?l dw?t pa kab manje kalalou.
A single finger cannot eat okra.

L? ou malere, ou toujou gen espwa ou ka jwenn lajan.
When you are poor, you always have hope that you can find money.
** @GWOZOZO: Here is a zero copula in the textbook! In fact, if you put the zero copula in the English translation (I did not) it sounds exactly like the zero copula in AAV (African-American Vernacular--?When you poor . . . ?) One point for African influence on H. Creole.

Sak vid pa kanpe.
An empty sack cannot stand.

B?f pou wa, savann pou wa.
Cows for the king; pasture for the king.

Si ou gade sa poul manje, ou p'ap janm manje poul.
If you see what a chicken eats, you will never eat chicken.

Dan pouri gen f?s sou bannann mi.
Rotten teeth have strength against a soft banana.

Rav?t pa janm gen rezon devan poul.
A cockroach never has reason to be in front of a chicken.

Foumi pa janm mouri anba sak sik.
Ants never die under a sack of sugar.

L? ou rive yon kote ou w? tout moun ap danse sou yon pye, danse sou youn tou.
When you arrive at a place where everyone is dancing on one foot, you will dance on one foot too.

Jwe ak makak, men pa janm manyen ke li.
You can play with a monkey but never touch his tail.

Je w? bouch pe.
Eyes see, lips keep silence.

Chay sot sou t?t, li tonbe sou zep?l.
A load on your head falls on your shoulder.
 

Major448

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You seem to be approaching Kreyol from a "scholarly" perspective ... and I don't know if this forum will give you what you seek. That's just my personal opinion though. Others may differ. And you have already received some good information so far. Let's hope it continues, so that we both may learn. But there may be better resources for that kind of research. And certainly on one of your future visits to Haiti?

Now, I understand that there are some in Haiti who may say something like this ... as a proverb:
?Pale franse pa di lespri pou sa.?
Speaking French doesn't mean intelligence

One might guess what that means ... and the historical meanings behind it, not just the words translated. But sometimes it's just not obvious to all. I guess that's why it's called a proverb.

So, here are some links that may be of interest concerning education in Kreyol vs French in Haiti.

The power of Creole - The Boston Globe
Language barrier in Haiti - The Boston Globe

And the source: MIT Department of Linguistics: People: Faculty: Michel DeGraff: Linguistics and education projects in Haiti

I am not Haitian. I have not studied the language as extensively as you. (But I am learning it.) So far, the bit of languages that I know are more oriented to Europe and to Asia. And a couple of African languages are probably next on my list ... after Kreyol.

All that being said, I most certainly will not be contributing much to your future search for knowledge about Kreyol. But others will ......

Best of luck with your studies.
 

GWOZOZO

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Some Haitian Krey?l Proverbs From The Book ?I Read With a Happy Heart.?


Rav?t pa janm gen rezon devan poul.
A cockroach never has reason to be in front of a chicken.


L? ou rive yon kote ou w? tout moun ap danse sou yon pye, danse sou youn tou.
When you arrive at a place where everyone is dancing on one foot, you will dance on one foot too.

1. The correct meaning is "A cockroach will never win an argument with a chicken"

2. "...everyone is dancing on one foot, you MUST also dance on one foot"........meaning don't rock the boat or make waves.
 

GWOZOZO

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A black american who has studied french speaking Haitian Kreyol.

His pronunciations may be clearer to a foreigner than if spoken by a native haitian.

[video=youtube_share;B8jP4n9yfWM]http://youtu.be/B8jP4n9yfWM[/video]
 

GWOZOZO

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Greek-French singer Georges Moustaki's rendition of "Haiti Cherie" in creole.

[video=youtube_share;660SiZ4IP5Q]http://youtu.be/660SiZ4IP5Q[/video]
 

GWOZOZO

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Lucas,

from the other thread, you copied

"The use of a zero copula is unknown in French, and it is thought to be an innovation from the early days when Haitian-Creole was first developing as a Romance-based pidgin. Latin also sometimes used a zero copula."

So it is not always an african thing.

Negro africa is in our veins, our drum beats, our religion, our look and part of our culture.

It is however of no importance in Haitian Kreyol.
 

GWOZOZO

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Lucas61

"There's no doubt about what I'm hearing. I hear it everywhere when I make business transactions. No exceptions. Just answer me this question:
In the sentence "Li koute senk goud." do you hear the "k" in senk pronounced?

BTW, I do appreciate what you have to teach. But it's not like because you do have much more knowledge of the language than I have, that this means that you are 100% correct and I am 100% incorrect. LOL!"



Yes Lucas61, i hear the K.

It is written SENK GOUD.

When spoken as a single word, it is always SENK

When spoken in a sentence, it comes out as SENK GOUD or sometimes SENG GOUD but never SEN GOUD or ZENG GOUD.


And I am not saying you are always 100% incorrect.

You are learning the language ( 2 years) and I am giving you the input of a NATIVE speaker (entire life)

When I was learning english, I often "misheard" spoken words. That is normal.
 

K-Mel

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From African influences in the DR Thread :

I am not sure if it is correct to state that Kreyol is free from any African language influences, especially for the syntax, grammar , conjugation or accent.

Dr Ama Mazama compared the Kreyol from Guadeloupe and Martinique, her conclusion is that the Kreyol in the former island is more influenced by Bantus languages, compared to Martinique who received more slaves from the Senegambian region.

The composition of the African groups in terms of ethnicities also influenced the Kreyol spoken in those different French islands

The "Moun" available in almost all French derived creoles in from the congolese (kimbundu) "muntu" for people.

French is my first language but I don't understand Kreyol (except few words here and there). It is true that French has evolved but the French documents of that period (17th to 18th centuries) are still available to see ( Loix et constitutions by Moreau de St Mery) and it is quite similar to the French we speak nowadays.

I used to live with Mauritians ( asians) and they spoke Kreyol, they told me that Haitian Kreyol was the closest compared to all kreyols spoken in the ex french colonies
 

GWOZOZO

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The "Moun" available in almost all French derived creoles in from the congolese (kimbundu) "muntu" for people.

No K-mel

Moun is from the french Monde (People).

The "de" is silent in Kreyol eventually ending up as Moun.

Again, creole evolved from the dialects of northern france, not the written standard parisian french.
 
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GWOZOZO

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I used to live with Mauritians ( asians) and they spoke Kreyol, they told me that Haitian Kreyol was the closest compared to all kreyols spoken in the ex french colonies

A perfect example of the lack of african influence.

Mauritians do not share the same african ethnicity as Haitians. East africans versus West africans.

Africa is a large diverse continent. There is no african language. There are hundreds of african languages and dialects.
 

GWOZOZO

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The first text written in HC contains about ten lines and appeared in the
book Voyage d'un Suisse dans diff?rentes colonies d'Am?rique published in
1786 by Justin Girod de Chantrans, a Swiss traveler who had lived in
St.Domingue between May 1782 and July 1783. Here is that brief text as it
appeared in de Chantrans's book. It is a letter written by a young female
Negro to her lover in order to apologize for the infidelity she was accused
of:

Moi ?tais ? la case ? moi; moi ?tais apr?s pr?parer cassave ? moi; Z?phir
venir trouver moi, li dit que li aimer moi, et qu'il voulait que moi aimer
li tout. Moi r?pondre li que moi d?j? aimer mon autre et que moi pas capable
d'aimer deux. Li dit moi, que li m?riter mieux amour ? moi que matelot ? li.
Moi r?pondre li, que li capable de m?riter li mieux, mais que li pas te
gagner li encore. Li dit moi que li va gagner li, et tout de suite li faire
moi violence. Ah, toi connais comment li fort! Juger si gagner faute ? moi!
Le ciel t?moin, cher dombo, de l'innocence et de fid?lit? ? moi!".


I was in my hut, preparing some cassava; Z?phir came to see me , and told me
that he loved me , and would like me to love him too. I told him that I
already had a lover and that I was not able to have two . He told me that he
deserved my love better than his rival. I told him that he could but that he
did not have it yet. He told me that he would have it, and suddenly he
assaulted me. . You know how strong he is! It's up to you to decide if I am
to blame! God knows, my dear, that I am innocent and faithful to you!
 

GWOZOZO

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Early creolization and Current creole.

EARLY: Moi ?tais ? la case ? moi; moi ?tais apr?s pr?parer cassave ? moi;
CURRENT: Moin te lakay moin; Moin te ap pare (or prepare) kasav moin.

EARLY: Z?phir venir trouver moi, li dit que li aimer moi, et qu'il voulait que moi aimer
li tout.
CURRENT: Zefi vini join moin, li di ke li renmen moin, e ke li vle ke moin renmen li tou.

EARLY: Moi r?pondre li que moi d?j? aimer mon autre et que moi pas capable
d'aimer deux.
CURRENT: Moin reponn li ke moin deja renmen ou lot e ke moin pa kapab renmen de.


With the latest accepted writing, K replaces c and we replaced "oi"....so Moin is now Mwen.
 

Lucas61

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Proverbs Interpretation

1. The correct meaning is "A cockroach will never win an argument with a chicken"

2. "...everyone is dancing on one foot, you MUST also dance on one foot"........meaning don't rock the boat or make waves.

Yes, you're exactly right about the first proverb. I checked my dictionary and see that "gen rezon devan" is a verb meaning "get the better of" which is equivalent to your "win an argument."

I have to disagree with your interpretation on the second one. First, there's no verb such as "dwe" or "oblije" that indicates "must." Secondly, the implicit idea is that if you see everyone doing something that appears odd to you, that you will willingly comply and do the same to avoid the risk of social ostracism. An English equivalent proverb better than "rock the boat" is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
 

Lucas61

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response to video

A black american who has studied french speaking Haitian Kreyol.

His pronunciations may be clearer to a foreigner than if spoken by a native haitian.

[video=youtube_share;B8jP4n9yfWM]http://youtu.be/B8jP4n9yfWM[/video]

Very interesting, thank you for digging up this presentation. Yes, I would say that the rhythm of K. spoken by Haitians is much different, as well as the tone of the voice. He speaks as if he is reading from a book.

No Haitian would have trouble understanding him but they would know immediately that he is "blan."

Repeating myself, native Haitian speech is much more dynamic.
 

Lucas61

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Zero Copula Revisit

Lucas,

from the other thread, you copied

"The use of a zero copula is unknown in French, and it is thought to be an innovation from the early days when Haitian-Creole was first developing as a Romance-based pidgin. Latin also sometimes used a zero copula."

So it is not always an african thing.

Negro africa is in our veins, our drum beats, our religion, our look and part of our culture.

It is however of no importance in Haitian Kreyol.

True, but it would be highly improbable to assume that the explanation of zero copula in K. was non-African in origin.

I have no doubt but that the zero copula exists in K. I have heard it many times and I have seen it in writing. However, my belief that its origin is from one or more African languages is an hypothesis. The zero copula in AAV is not a hypothesis; it is a given and the linguistic research bears it out.

My hypothesis that the zero copula in K. is African in origin is speculation on my part. I think the only way to settle this, is to research the scholarship on the question.

I still feel that you are being adamant in your claim that K. has NO African language influences with a strong desire to be dismissive of that possibility.
 

Lucas61

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Final Consonant Deletion Revisited

Lucas61

"There's no doubt about what I'm hearing. I hear it everywhere when I make business transactions. No exceptions. Just answer me this question:
In the sentence "Li koute senk goud." do you hear the "k" in senk pronounced?

BTW, I do appreciate what you have to teach. But it's not like because you do have much more knowledge of the language than I have, that this means that you are 100% correct and I am 100% incorrect. LOL!"



Yes Lucas61, i hear the K.

It is written SENK GOUD.

When spoken as a single word, it is always SENK

When spoken in a sentence, it comes out as SENK GOUD or sometimes SENG GOUD but never SEN GOUD or ZENG GOUD.


And I am not saying you are always 100% incorrect.

You are learning the language ( 2 years) and I am giving you the input of a NATIVE speaker (entire life)

When I was learning english, I often "misheard" spoken words. That is normal.



"Seng" goud is good enough for me! That's very close to what I hear. I withdraw ZAIN goud! However, in the example you give, the terminal "k" is silenced, which is a notable African language feature. The ONLY examples I have heard of this possibility in K. are with "senk" when used as adjective only, and "dis" when used as adjective only (sounds like "di goud.")

That these are African language influences, again, is speculation on my part. However, it is speculation based on the fact that the final consonant deletion is a common African language characteristic and that Haitians hearken from Africa. It's hard to believe that this language feature is coincidental but it could have some other explanation.

Again, I think the only way we're going to settle this question is by researching it among scholars, linguists, who have knowledge of African language groups and how their grammars get diffused into the diaspora.
 

GWOZOZO

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"Seng" goud is good enough for me! That's very close to what I hear. I withdraw ZAIN goud! However, in the example you give, the terminal "k" is silenced, which is a notable African language feature. The ONLY examples I have heard of this possibility in K. are with "senk" when used as adjective only, and "dis" when used as adjective only (sounds like "di goud.")

That these are African language influences, again, is speculation on my part. However, it is speculation based on the fact that the final consonant deletion is a common African language characteristic and that Haitians hearken from Africa. It's hard to believe that this language feature is coincidental but it could have some other explanation.

Again, I think the only way we're going to settle this question is by researching it among scholars, linguists, who have knowledge of African language groups and how their grammars get diffused into the diaspora.

It has been researched already Lucas, there is nothing to settle

Yes you are doing a lot of speculating simply based on race.

Your entire argument is based on some instances of final consonant deletion that HK shares with some african languages.....ignoring the fact that it shares it also with other non-african languages.

Creole was born from listening to the dialects of the early french settlers. It was learned from listening.

Just as you hear Zain Goud, the new learners also missed some words while listening, and misinterpreted when speaking it.

In addition, there has been much contraction and re-arrangement as the language evolved.

That is exactly what happens in creolization.

No african language survived in Haiti, not at any time in the colony's history.


You are on an afrocentric mission....lol...lol...unfortunately it is a dead end.
 

GWOZOZO

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I have to disagree with your interpretation on the second one. First, there's no verb such as "dwe" or "oblije" that indicates "must." Secondly, the implicit idea is that if you see everyone doing something that appears odd to you, that you will willingly comply and do the same to avoid the risk of social ostracism. An English equivalent proverb better than "rock the boat" is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

lol...lol..Lucas61,

My friend you have a lot to learn about Haitian Kreyol.

Ou DWE reponn li = You MUST answer him.

Ou OBLIJE vini = You MUST come.

You are not disagreeing with ME on the meaning of the proverv, you are disagreeing with the Haitian meaning of the proverb.

It does not mean you will willingly comply, it is rather an advice telling you to go with the flow.

You keep making the same mistake over and over, trying to understand a language and its meaning from reading a book and doing word for word translation.

You need to fully speak the language and live the culture to get the nuances and the meanings.
 

GWOZOZO

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To my foreign ear, he sounds like a French speaker speaking. K. The American sounds more H.

Actually it is the reverse.

To the Haitian ear, Mustaki's creole accent will be better understood than the american's.

That is what we call "creole francise" spoken with a more french pronunciation.

Example:
English: I returned yesterday / I went to visit my sister.

French: Je suis rentre hier / Je suis aller rendre visite a ma soeur.
creole francise: moin rentre hier / moin te aller visite soeur moin
creole sec: mwen antre ye / mwen t'al we se'm

Haitians use a french pronunciation in kreyol when either trying to impress or to mock someone.

Both manners of speaking Creole are understood by all creole speakers.


In addition, we have the northern kreyol with a different accent and some words and expressions not used in the south.