fogon, need instructions to build many

John Felter

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Feb 5, 2002
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Hello,
I am working with a group from Florida and the Roman Catholic Church in helping to build homes for the poor in Guayabol. We need DETAILED drawings/instructions/bill of materials for making fogons. We are trying to build 30-40 homes and each will require its own, out door fogon. Any ideas or web sites to point me to?
Thanks in advance.
Yours in Christ,
John Felter
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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John,

Thank you for your effort to better the lives of my fellow countrymen. We need more people like you. :)

My first thought when I saw your post was to draw it and scan it for you. But then I thought, fogones work with lumber or charcoal. Cutting trees for that purpose is illegal in DR and punished with even jail-time. Cutting trees damages our ecology. Charcoal is more expensive than kerosene.

Isn't there another way that you guys can solve that without resorting to fogones?
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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PIB is absolutely right, as PIBs usually are.

So in the Name of Christ, get smart and think of small propane stoves.

Fogones can be bought at a lot of the country stores but they are so out of date that I really do not believe they are worth the effort.

Propane is subsidized by the government, it is relatively cheap, it will give added prestige to your houses, and it will reduce costs, since cooking can be indoors. You don't think even poor Dominicans cook over a fire without shelter, do you?

There is a perceived value added to the use of propane, also.

How are you going to build these houses? Self help? Or are you going to put them up and then raffel off the houses to the bishop's "most worthy 50" ??

And that is Guayabal, not 'bol' , not that it matters. Please, please rethink this plan....

And let me tell you the story of Barrio Gregorio Luperon in Puerto Plata.

When word got out that the cesspool at the head of Puerto Plata Bay was going to be converted into one of President Balaguer's urban renewal projects, every one of the inhabitants sent to the countryside for their relatives to come for a visit.
Of course, the visit was timed to coincide with the census of people that 'needed' houses.. Smart, huh?
People were moved out, houses were built with indoor plumbing, running water and electricity. Roads were paved. What happened?

A lot of the men got rid of the old wives and got new ones for the new house.

In many, many houses the johns were taken out and sold for cash to local hardware/building supplies dealers, since, after all, the hole served just as well.

Many new houses of ill repute opened up to service the new population just in from the countryside.

these and other stories are true....

Housing does not cure poverty, education does. I applaud your efforts, but I'd sure like to see a school mentioned in the project.

HB, the grizzled vetern of development projects....
 

John Felter

New member
Feb 5, 2002
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Propane Subsidiarily, fogons

Hillbilly said:
PIB is absolutely right, as PIBs usually are.

So in the Name of Christ, get smart and think of small propane stoves.

Fogones can be bought at a lot of the country stores but they are so out of date that I really do not believe they are worth the effort.

Propane is subsidized by the government, it is relatively cheap, it will give added prestige to your houses, and it will reduce costs, since cooking can be indoors. You don't think even poor Dominicans cook over a fire without shelter, do you?

There is a perceived value added to the use of propane, also.

How are you going to build these houses? Self help? Or are you going to put them up and then raffel off the houses to the bishop's "most worthy 50" ??

And that is Guayabal, not 'bol' , not that it matters. Please, please rethink this plan....

And let me tell you the story of Barrio Gregorio Luperon in Puerto Plata.

When word got out that the cesspool at the head of Puerto Plata Bay was going to be converted into one of President Balaguer's urban renewal projects, every one of the inhabitants sent to the countryside for their relatives to come for a visit.
Of course, the visit was timed to coincide with the census of people that 'needed' houses.. Smart, huh?
People were moved out, houses were built with indoor plumbing, running water and electricity. Roads were paved. What happened?

A lot of the men got rid of the old wives and got new ones for the new house.

In many, many houses the johns were taken out and sold for cash to local hardware/building supplies dealers, since, after all, the hole served just as well.

Many new houses of ill repute opened up to service the new population just in from the countryside.

these and other stories are true....

Housing does not cure poverty, education does. I applaud your efforts, but I'd sure like to see a school mentioned in the project.

HB, the grizzled vetern of development projects....
 
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John Felter

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Feb 5, 2002
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Propane Subsidiarily, fogons

Wow,
What great input from Pib and Hillbilly. This is exactly what I need. I did not know that the collecting and burning of these fuels is illegal. As I understand it. Guayabal is a very poor area that the people could not afford the propane. Can you direct me to where to find the info on the goverment subsidized propane program? I need to confirm that it is available in Guayabal.

Getting to the housing question. The Roman Catholic Nun that is in charge of this project, is requiring that the local folks that want these homes to put in at LEAST 400 hours of sweat equity in each home. We, as volunteers, coming to the DR will not be allowed to do the construction work. We will only be allowed to teach, direct, and help the locals.

I think, but please do not hold me to it, that there is already a school in Guayabal.

Yours in Christ,
John Felter
 

jjsk

"Going for Gold"
Jan 1, 2002
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Is this project being done through Habitat for Humanity? It sounds very similar to their program.
 

John Felter

New member
Feb 5, 2002
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This is not H-for-H project. We are just borrowering some of their requirements for ownership. The homes we hope to construct are to get the folks out of lean-to's and shacks. We are looking at 20' x 24' foot-print. Much smaller than HfH.
Do you have any info or directions for me on the subsidized propane program?
Thanks in advance,
John Felter
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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Government subsidized propane

I think that HB inadvertently made it sound like a sophisticated program. What it means is that the government pays for some of the cost of the propane that people buy for cooking. As an example a 100 lb container cost near RD$500 to buy and about the same to fill. In a regular family it would have to be re-filled every 2-4 months. A cheap stove would go for about RD$600.00 without an oven (which I think they won't need) and with proper care would last about 4 yrs.
 
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Jane J.

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Jan 3, 2002
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There is some program though giving a rebate to 'poor families' when purchasing gaz...But apparently the rebate is very little (5-10 pesos) and requires that you stand in line all day and hope they don't run out...Perhaps someone else has the exact details?
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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Jane J

Forget about that. There was some "mismanagement of funds" there and now the government stopped the program. Everybody buys gas for cooking at the same price now.
 

Jane J.

ditz
Jan 3, 2002
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How quickly things change!

Thanks for the update, Pib.

It didn't seem like a great program to begin with anyway...
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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Those are indeed quite small houses at 480 sq feet.

As for gov't subsidies they are in the fact that the gov't apparently sells GLP/propane at the cheapest it can. Not like gasoline where there are $1.50 of taxes (more or less) Another example of this is diesel which is currently at RD$18 and change and gasoline is RD$37 and change.

These familites will be purchasing the smaller 25 and 40 pound tanks of propane, certainly not the 100 pound ones-well some of them will, of course.

Something you could do, is gather the small, used propane tanks that are used for BBQs in the States. Although the shipping might be expensive, it will give these people a start.

Another thing is school supplies, khaki cloth for uniforms and blue cotton materiel for the shirts.

Solar panels, batteries and inverters for the computers at the school..? why not?

1) When is this going to start
2) maybe I can help. Been there, done that. At least for a few days...

Luck,

HB
 

Tom F.

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
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Guayabal

I had the pleasure of visiting this community in 1999 while they were repairing the aquaduct system. It is well off the beaten path and a bit of a look at the DR a generation ago. Do you know if the job was finished and done well? It was tricky working in the riverbed and the rocks. I met some of the people involved from the church. The group which funded the repair was from Orlando, FL. The nuns usually have people come down for very specific purposes and the thing they really need are the $$$ and not so much your expertise. The visitors are there more for the cultural exchange. The church pretty much runs the school, community center and organizes the community. There are maybe 100 homes in the town crowded close together. There is not much there but it is a unique experience.

I would imagine the homes you are building are the nuns attempt to relocate some of the poorer families from the edge of the river bed. It is the most convinent place for them to be with water and access to electricity. The problem is, when a hurricane or heavy rains hit the central part of the country, the river floods and washes these homes away. If you spend some time there and speak the language, you will learn about the complexities of actually dealing with people when doing development work.

There were solar panels installed and now the town has the grid. Few people live in the surrounding valleys and mountains where some solar panels are still being used. After spending some time there you will be able to better assess how your group can make a positive contribution with the community.

Tom F.
 

John Felter

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Feb 5, 2002
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fogones

Tom F.
I understand the work was done properly. I also understand that the average monthly household income for this area is only about RD$500-700. If to fill up the propane tank is about RD $500. and there not a local supplier of propane, then the stove idea is out the door. These people have dirt for floors and thatched roofes.
I need design details on fogones. These people gather wood every day for the cooking of rice and beans. Do you have a ideas or web site to point me to?
Yours in Christ,
John Felter
 

sjh

aka - shadley
Jan 1, 2002
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its nice to try to help but

But anything thing that encourages people to cut wood will ultimately lead to the destruction of the local environment and more poverty... The trees prevent erosion, absorb excess water, provide protection from the weather, also many species are nitrogren-fixing... Fruit trees provide food at very little cost.. If you cut down the trees any local agriculture will be ruined.

If you want to really help these people... Dont encourage them to cut down trees.. Charcoal production has helped make haiti into the beautiful wonderland it is today...

Solar ovens have been helpful in africa. Perhaps you should look into those... Or pay for the propane as part of your project...
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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I think that the ODC and the Peace Corps have designs for a LORENA stove that is much more evvicient than the fogon....

Also the smaller tanks are not RD$500 but onlyRD$100. As a matter of fact the larger tanks are on RD$360 as of today's quote...

;Seems like i am going to have to visit this place. Tom? Exactly where is it?

HB
 

Tom F.

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Jan 1, 2002
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Hillbilly

The Peace Corps switched from promoting Lorena stoves to ceramic stoves in 1988. A volunteer who lived near Cutupu, La Vega worked with a group of women who man the ceramic no-face dolls. I installed a few and some kinks needed to be worked out. The Lorena and ceramic stoves are great but after a few years, most families tear it apart and go back to the old method. Propane has solved the problem for most.

In 1997 there was also a women who studied and promoted the use of solar cooking without much success. There are limited applications for using this technology and it doesn't quite fit into the Dominican way of cooking.

For those of you who condem the use of wood. Much of the wood near Guayabal is probably on the ground when it is used. Since the early 1990's there has been a dramitic shift in the amount of charcol produced in the country. Those that could afford charcol use propane. Those that can't, still use wood.

Guayabal is North of Azua and at the end of the road. On the map is on the other side of the mountain between Constanza and Villa Altagracia. You are a couple of hours away from any serious economic activity. The people who own large farms live in Azua or the Capital and those who stay are their employees. There are some families in Guayabal who maintain somewhat of a middle class existence. I only spent a couple of days there so my knowledge is limited and these are my general impressions. I have always felt that the way to help the rural poor is to help those get actual title to the land. Most of the poorer families have squatter rights only.

One last question, what kind of fogon are you talking about? Real development work takes years and a real understanding of the culture. The nuns seem to be doing a real good job in the community for what they have to work with. I don't always agree with their methods. They have worked there for many years and have figured out how best to get the work done in their opinion.

Tom F.
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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Tom, thanks for that update on Lorena/ceramic stoves. When I was in the Peace Corps, we tried to teach people how to build letreens, boil water and milk, feed babies, raise chickens....
We fixed windmills, too.

The Lorena technology came in later...

Think I might take a look at this place. You ideas about wood are pretty much right on..

There was a survey done on living standard perceptions in the poorest of the SD barrios. The results showed that most people with color TVs were 'satisfied' with their houses. B&W TVs got a slightly lower rating and those houes w/o TV? Generally considered to be unsatisfactory--even when they were noticeabley superior to shacks with TVs!!! I.e. with concrete floors as opposed to shacks with dirt floors and a TV...

Community development is a loong process as you no doubt know....I will refrain from commenting on the nun's abilities until I can see it for myself.

Historically speaking, I can remember a war between the Jesuits and the Franciscans over how best to teach the Indians of Peru. Of course the Indians did the fighting.....

Oh well...

HB